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Nevelon wrote: If you are doing it to exploit bizarre rules interactions I have an issue.
This, to me, is more about the player than the Legends. Playing a Legends model is fine with me; playing the RULES like that makes you TFG in my eyes.
Give me an example of a 10e Legends unit with what you'd consider a bizarre rules interaction.
How many models/units can ride in a Terminus Ultra?
Correct answer, as written, is ZERO.
Is it a mistake to not list passenger types/#s?
Or was it a mistake to include the transport kw & rules for the assault ramp?
We'll likely never know....
But as is its NOT an odd interaction, it's just ZERO.
I would say that in order for something to be a "rules interaction" the problem must be caused by two different rules-sources being misaligned. For example, a datasheet could reference a core rule that no longer exists in this edition, or a new detachment could combine with an old Legends unit for some OP combo that was never intended.
A vehicle missing its transport capacity isn't a "rules interaction", it's just a rules misprint, because transport capacity is only ever listed on the datasheet. And GW often has rules misprints in their most recent codex, which they need to errata the week after release (forgetting to give a Tempestus unit Deep Strike etc). So those can't really be attributed to being out-of-date.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
Edit to Add: Just realized the "Relic Razorback" is not the Lascannon+2Plasma Guns razorback, its the same as the current one just still with the option to swap to twin linked Assault Cannons. And for 10 points more.
Telion + the new Scout Squad which matches the units he can join but might not be what was intended can have some squirrely interactions. Two Precision Missile Launchers + 2 Sniper Rifles, plus Precision Bolter chip damage, plus Telion's own Sniper Bolter could get pretty mean. I haven't mathed it out yet, but the back of my mind is wondering what happens if you do frags instead of kraks and just overwhelm the CHARACTER with AP- wounds - 19 S4 Ap- D1 + 2 S4 -2 D2, plus 2 S4 -0 D3.. at a certain point it doesn't matter what their armor save is, they're going to roll some 1's.
1) the classic las/plas turret for the Razorback has NEVER been a Legends option. It's last appearance was in the 8th ed index book.
Doesn't mean it will never return though - afterall Chaos Demons got their Furies back this edition....
2) So your complaint about Telion is that.... he does exactly what he did in the Index prior to the Codex arriving & him becoming a Legend?
Nevelon wrote: If you are doing it to exploit bizarre rules interactions I have an issue.
This, to me, is more about the player than the Legends. Playing a Legends model is fine with me; playing the RULES like that makes you TFG in my eyes.
Give me an example of a 10e Legends unit with what you'd consider a bizarre rules interaction.
How many models/units can ride in a Terminus Ultra?
Correct answer, as written, is ZERO.
Is it a mistake to not list passenger types/#s?
Or was it a mistake to include the transport kw & rules for the assault ramp?
We'll likely never know....
But as is its NOT an odd interaction, it's just ZERO.
A transport with an Assault Ramp that can't transport anyone IS an odd interaction. So are the rest of the things I listed you snipped.
1) the classic las/plas turret for the Razorback has NEVER been a Legends option. It's last appearance was in the 8th ed index book.
Doesn't mean it will never return though - afterall Chaos Demons got their Furies back this edition....
In the mean time we still have what ammounts to a pretty much doubled up Datasheet.
2) So your complaint about Telion is that.... he does exactly what he did in the Index prior to the Codex arriving & him becoming a Legend?
And that he does it to a squad that didn't exist when he was designed?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/04/12 06:20:06
2) So your complaint about Telion is that.... he does exactly what he did in the Index prior to the Codex arriving & him becoming a Legend?
And that he does it to a squad that didn't exist when he was designed?
You're getting this het up about a second missile launcher?
After all, lest we forget Telion can attach to a Scout Sniper squad, where you end up with 9 Sniper Rifles, 1 Missile Launcher & Telion's own gun - without running the numbers, that's fairly comparable firepower, if not stronger into some targets.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2025/04/12 07:49:01
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Breton wrote: A transport with an Assault Ramp that can't transport anyone IS an odd interaction
It has a transport keyword but no transport capacity
The assault ramp is superfluous because it never functions - "each time a unit disembarks from this model after it has made a normal move" - the terminus ultra can never have any embarked units, therefore they can never disembark, therefore the Assault ramp is there but it never triggers. It's not a weird interaction because the assault ramp rule never interacts with anything.
It's a mistake to put it on the datasheet in the first place, but almost certainly just a copy/paste error from other LR datasheets. Unfortunately being legends, we're not likely to see any corrections any time soon. So in the meantime you can still play it entirely RAW, the TU has an ability that never triggers
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2025/04/12 11:33:55
Nevelon wrote: If you are doing it to exploit bizarre rules interactions I have an issue.
This, to me, is more about the player than the Legends. Playing a Legends model is fine with me; playing the RULES like that makes you TFG in my eyes.
Give me an example of a 10e Legends unit with what you'd consider a bizarre rules interaction.
How many models/units can ride in a Terminus Ultra?
Correct answer, as written, is ZERO.
Is it a mistake to not list passenger types/#s?
Or was it a mistake to include the transport kw & rules for the assault ramp?
We'll likely never know....
But as is its NOT an odd interaction, it's just ZERO.
A transport with an Assault Ramp that can't transport anyone IS an odd interaction. So are the rest of the things I listed you snipped.
1) the classic las/plas turret for the Razorback has NEVER been a Legends option. It's last appearance was in the 8th ed index book.
Doesn't mean it will never return though - afterall Chaos Demons got their Furies back this edition....
In the mean time we still have what ammounts to a pretty much doubled up Datasheet.
2) So your complaint about Telion is that.... he does exactly what he did in the Index prior to the Codex arriving & him becoming a Legend?
And that he does it to a squad that didn't exist when he was designed?
What are you on about?
The unit absolutely existed when he was designed. Would you like a photo of the Index era card??
All that changed, with the codex version of the scout squad, was that you could take 1 rifle, 1 ML, & 1HB per 5 members. So two of each in a full squad. Telion was already providing percision overkill vs characters so....
The Valkyrie variant, the Vendetta swaps out missiles for lascannons on the wings has the Keyword Transport, but also is missing its Transport capacity.
In previous editions, it had the same as the Valkyrie.
BorderCountess wrote: Just because you're doing something right doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're doing...
Nightlord1987 wrote: The issue I see with legends is that they are not meant to be future proofed and don't anticipate detachment interactions. Grot tanks and Grot mega tanks do super well in Dreadmob. Legends units are stuck in the early 10th Index mindset.
Flipping that around, I don't think they wanted to limit DreadMob to assuming everyone needs a swarm of Grot Tanks to play it.
Legends is not a question of army/detachment design though . It is a question of IP protection and making people rebuy their army. Even units that GW left in the sm codex, that aren't legends, may as well be legends. GW didn't even give them the last hurra, so people could have fun with them. No they made tacticals, devastators, razorbacks/rhinos really bad. And they were going head over heals to make land raiders bad too. Heck when venguard veterans were okey/good in BA, and only because of jump pack S.Prists, GW nerfed the hell out of the unit. For all marines, and that is after they removed the option for S.Priests to take jump packs.
GW if they wanted could fix big problems (rules based) in a week or two, but they don't want to, because it either could/would impact the sells the wrong way, or it is a problem only for people who already bought models/armies, and GW isn't really interested how those people are doing.
So, the narrative for the "last harrah".
"GW made these units really good just so everyone had to buy them before they moved them to Legends."
There is absolutely no way to make everyone happy. Personally, I think making units bad to discourage people from buying them before they're removed is one of the kind options.
2) So your complaint about Telion is that.... he does exactly what he did in the Index prior to the Codex arriving & him becoming a Legend?
And that he does it to a squad that didn't exist when he was designed?
You're getting this het up about a second missile launcher?
After all, lest we forget Telion can attach to a Scout Sniper squad, where you end up with 9 Sniper Rifles, 1 Missile Launcher & Telion's own gun - without running the numbers, that's fairly comparable firepower, if not stronger into some targets.
Not really, they already had precision - at best he gives them Lethal or Sustained. A Scout Sniper Squad with or without Telion could be a fairly reliable threat to an Aeldari character or less. The second missile launcher at A2 bolters turn this more into Lasguns vs Terminators from 3rd edition i.e. overloarding the 1's.
What are you on about?
The unit absolutely existed when he was designed. Would you like a photo of the Index era card??
All that changed, with the codex version of the scout squad, was that you could take 1 rifle, 1 ML, & 1HB per 5 members. So two of each in a full squad. Telion was already providing percision overkill vs characters so....
It wasn't the same unit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2025/04/13 02:25:14
The concern was about a Legends datasheet's rules having an odd interaction with Core and/or Codex rules that have changed since the Legends rules were written. The Terminus Ultra's (lack of) transport capacity isn't in that category. It's just a copy/paste failure that is only impacted by itself. That's not the kind of odd interaction people were concerned about.
She/Her
"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln
Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.
I forget what edition, but one of them there was a drastic change in how chaplains worked after legends. Might have been 8th. Where the legends versions used the pre-codex version, but all the rest had been changed. So you could use legends for the pre-nerf version.
It’s been a while and I might have things mixed up. but it was a case where someone might not have wanted to use legends for the cool models, but for rules mechanics.
Usually I was rather annoyed about the lack of interactions instead of overpowered interactions. And that goes all the way back at least to FW in 7th edition. GW put formations in the Codizes that FW units never could be a part of.
Since 8th you have the occasional change of keywords in Codizes that make legends units not work properly anymore or makes them feel unfitting. Like when Beast Snaggas arrived and got a squig keyword but the Squiggoths didn't get the Memo.
So, fear of OP legends is not warranted. No legends unit has ever been as OP as 8th edition iron hands or the recent More dakka detachment .
Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 16k+ 
4k 
4k Points
Competition Index
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