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Here's a point that no one has mentioned. If you are disembarking from a vehicle you are MOVING AWAY from it regardless if you are forced to or are voluntarily disembarking. Why in the hell would you "disembark" back onto/into the vehicle?

Wrecks are not area terrain. No where are wrecks listed as such.

DaIronGob,  despite all the arguing I have done to the contrary I heard a great logical argument the other day in support of what you are claiming, it goes like this:

If they have to emergency disembark, and they do so into the wreck, aren't they essentially never leaving and staying in the vehicle while it blows up? You have to leave an exploding vehicle don't you. Aren't they trying to get out afterall?

I laughed, I had to agree.  But I like this debate. (I'm just afraid when Beef is on my side, his Caveman posting style is not very educated, don't be angry beef...  Augustus and Beef frend! )

DaIronGob> Wrecks are not area terrain.

OK... Then what are they?

DaIronGob> No where are wrecks listed as such.

What about page 25? What does that mean then?

They are wrecked vehicles that have specific rules of their own, which were previous posted in this thread. They are difficult terrain that block LoS as if they were still intact, meaning physical form of the vehicle not an area level.

Area terrain has levels to base who or what can see through or over. Wrecks do not have this.

The only reason you would disembark back into a vehicle is because of the game mechanic that forces passengers to be placed within 2" of the access points. Just like when you remove your models when they embark. It is simply a game mechanic. It doesn't mean they aren't on the table, but in order to play this game we must remove them from the table when they embark. In the same manner we must actually disembark the passengers from a wrecked vehicle into the wreckage. The passengers are not getting out, then geting back in. They are struggling in the wreckage, or helping teammates, or whatever never having gotten out of the vehicle at all. However, the game makes us take our models from off-table and place them there and it tells us the guidlines for doing it...kind of.

I agree, tht wrecks are not area terrain also.

The only reason you would disembark back into a vehicle is because of the game mechanic that forces passengers to be placed within 2" of the access points

And the diagram shows how to determine the measurements from the access points as OUTSIDE of the vehicle. Not inside it.

And the wrecks section tells us we can place models on top of a vehicle.

Vehicles that are not wrecked cannot have models stacked on top of them. This is covered by the rules earlier on that prevent stacking and is further reinforced by the diagram you mention. Once a vehicle becomes a wreck it is now subject to a further set of rules pertaining to vehicle wrecks.

So... they are not area terrain size level 3?

Nope. They are wrecked vehicles

 

Edit: spelling

Posted By Augustus 08/10/2006 12:12 PM
So... they are not area terrain size level 3?

Again, why would you think they are?

Are you assuming that model size equals terrain size? If so, you're mistaken.

Terrain of the same size is always "taller" than a model of the same size. This is why size 2 terrain blocks LOS between size 2 models.

So when you say that a size 3 vehicle becomes size 3 terrain, not only are you not basis your statement on any rule, but you're saying that the wreck is suddenly taller than the vehicle was.

Yes, I see it now, if they became size 3 area terrain then they would block los like woods. I concur that is completely wrong.  Vehicle LOS is as seen, as is wreck LOS, therefore it logically follows that they have to be a special case.

Thanks for the insight.

They aren't a 'special case'. They're just terrain.

When you play, are you only using area terrain? That's fine if you do, but be aware that not all terrain must be area terrain. You can always play terrain wysiwyg. That's very clearly in the book.

And the wrecks section tells us we can place models on top of a vehicle.

But the disembarking section shows that you can't do so when disembarking.

SO: You can place models on a wrecked vehicle... just not when disembarking from that wrecked vehicle.

We simply don't know that. The diagram that is causing the most grief here is showing the 2" valid area the marines are able to occupy when they are placed on the table. If they showed a full circle it would cause even more grief because then players would conveniently forget about the fact that you can't stack models, and we would be having this discussion right now in reverse. We can assume that the diagram is showing us an intact vehicle or we can assume the diagram is showing us a wrecked vehicle, but either way we are assuming. The text (including the text under the diagram) never prohibits us from placing disembarking troops on top of their vehicle. That is covered elsewhere.

The diagram that is causing the most grief here is showing the 2" valid area the marines are able to occupy when they are placed on the table.

Causing the most grief to your theories, not to the actual rules.

If they showed a full circle it would cause even more grief because then players would conveniently forget about the fact that you can't stack models, and we would be having this discussion right now in reverse.

But it doesn't so we don't even need to really go there or worry about it.

We can assume that the diagram is showing us an intact vehicle or we can assume the diagram is showing us a wrecked vehicle

A wrecked vehicle is still a vehicle, just wrecked. Assume all you want but there is no reason to believe that this is an "either/or" assumption in regards to disembarking. Facts are that you either disembark or you don't, there are no specifics as to having disembarked voluntarily using the diagram or involuntarily. So no reason to assume that the vehicle disembarked from is wrecked or not.

The text (including the text under the diagram) never prohibits us from placing disembarking troops on top of their vehicle. That is covered elsewhere.

Except for the diagram showing you clearly where to measure OUTSIDE the vehicle.

The text doesn't prohibit the troops from climbing on top of each other when disembarking either, that doesn't mean that they can.

 

EDIT: spelling and grammar

D.I.G.: "The text doesn't prohibit the troops from climbing on top of each other when disembarking either, that doesn't mean that they can."

My point was that they needn't prohibit anything like that since the rules on stacking models are already covered at this point and are quite clear. Later on in the book it actually gives us a caveat to the rules allowing models to stack on wrecked vehicle models.

As I've said before, I think the best way to play it from a sportsmanship method is to just place them outside of the wreckage. However, when taking a RAW approach we must only use the rules that are given to us.

With that in mind we can now argue that the text as well as the diagram are to be taken as RAW. No problem, even though the diagrams in the book have been proven to contradict the text before. So, if troops must not only be placed within 2" of an access point AND with their base touching the semi-transparent circles that are illustrated for the Rhino only the troops can still be disembarked on top of their wrecked vehicle as long as they bases touch the edge of the semi-transparent disembark circles, they are within 2" of it (impossible not to be), and are in coherency. There can be no counter-argument to this since it is using all of the available rules, diagrams, and wishfull thinking at the same time.

AND with their base touching the semi-transparent circles that are illustrated for the Rhino only the troops can still be disembarked on top of their wrecked vehicle as long as they bases touch the edge of the semi-transparent disembark circles, they are within 2" of it (impossible not to be),

Negative. Outside the vehicle does not = "Touching the transparent grey half circle while sitting inside the vehicle".

The transparent half circles are on the OUTSIDE of the vehicle, not inside.

It doesn't matter. If you'll notice the marines bases (according to the picture) only need to be touching the semi-trasparent half circle. So, now we can place our marines on top of the wrecked vehicle as long as their bases touch the semi-transparent half circle. In other words, on the edge. Easy and clean.

so basically they can when the vehickle blows up climb on top of it. ok so say the rhino blows up and some of the guys end up on the top hatch as they can always shoot out from it, is it not possible that they get blown onto the top. Area terain is woods and tank traps and ruins. as you can see into them 6inches, cant see through them to the other side etc. so does a wreck not count as area terrain??

Damn I am fast getting a reputaion for being illiterate. : (

@ beef-we've already established wrecks are not area terrain.

@ Glaive-And the picture shows them standing partially ON the vehicle? No it doesn't because they have to get OUT of the vehicle. One disembarks FROM a vehicle, i.e. gets OUT of it. One does NOT disembark back into or onto the vehicle or wreck.

Also according to your interpretation then if I have say a daemon prince assault a Chimera's rear and it gets destroyed the models inside the vehicle that are forced to disembark aren't destroyed because they can disembark back into the vehicle away from the access point up to two inches?. Wrong.

I'll make this quick:

dis·em·bark    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (dsm-bärk)
v. dis·em·barked, dis·em·bark·ing, dis·em·barks
v. intr.

1. To go ashore from a ship.
2. To leave a vehicle or aircraft.

If you are leaving the vehicle, you aren't still inside it,on it, onthe wreckage. I know they define the terms of words in the book and they do so consistently with the real word. If your models are still on the wreck they didn't disembark.

Darn it! I must be putting this out there in a way that makes it hard to follow. I do that alot so I apologize. I'm going to try to break it down again.

For the purposes of this post I will declare a few things:

1. The half circles are defined as "valid disembarkation area" even though the book never defines them as such it does appear that that was the intent.

2. Vehicle Wrecks are not terrain of any type. They can be moved over LIKE difficult terrain. They provide a cover save LIKE terrain. However, they aren't terrain. They are vehicles that are wrecked, a class all their own.

3. When a vehicle is destroyed and passengers are forced to disembark there is a step process. In other words the vehicle is hit, damage is resolved, and passengers disembark. It happens in that order, not simultaneously.

4. Models can be placed on top of a vehicle wreck. The rulebook doesn't actually say this, but it does say that models on top gain a 4+ save. We can argue about wether or not models can actually be placed onto a vehicle wreck later.

If you disagree with any of these declarations then there is no need to read further because everything that follows is based on them.

1. The rules tell us that models cannot stack on top of each other so when a unit disembarks from a vehicle (not wrecked) the models cannot be placed on top of it.

2. The diagram shows the bases of a few of the marines splitting the 'valid disembarkation area' so the bases do not actually have to be "within" the area. They can simply be touching the area. This section of the rules doesn't say the models can't be placed on top of the vehicle because this has already been forbidden earlier in the rules.

3. So, if models can be placed on top of a wreck and they only have to be touching the 'valid area of disembarkation' they can certainly be touching the edge of the vehicle that the access point is on and satisfy any and all of the criterea for a valid disembarkation.

D.I.G. - With this in mind your conclusion would be false. The passengers would attampt to disembark on top of the chimera touching the rear edge of the vehicle. They would find themselves within 1" of the deamon since (I'm assuming) he's in BTB with the rear of the vehicle. If the models can be placed on top, with their edge touching the 'valid area of disembarkation', in coherency, AND not within 1" of an enemy then they are safe.

Also - "on top of" is not the same as "inside." Models on top of their wrecked vehicle are not inside it. Only embarked models are ever inside their vehicle.

1. Agree
2. Agree.
3. Disagree. This cannot be the step process, because there is no way to exit a wrecked vehicle - it has no access points. Thus, the order has to be - vehicle is hit; determination is made on waht effect will happen to the vehicle; passengers disembark and suffer the consequences; then damage to the vehicle resolves. That's the only way for models to leave the vehicle, is when it is still a vehicle.
4. Agree.
Therefore, based upon the above, as you cannot stack models on other models, and the vehicle must exist at the time of disembarkation, you cannot embark on top of the vehicle.

I meant "disembark on top of the vehicle." oops.

Earlier in this thread there is a discussion about how to handle the actual process of emergency disembarkation, but I will try to summarize it.

The only reasons for an emergency disembark are 'vehicle suffers penetrating hit but isn't destroyed' or 'vehicle is destroyed.' Since there is no possible way to determine either of these outcomes without resolving the damage to the vehicle the passengers must disembark after the damage is resolved. It was proposed that all of these events happen simultaneously, but that still doesn't make very much sense. Either way, the outcome of an exploding vehicle would be to actually catch the disembarking passengers in the explosion causing them to basically take double damage. That may be the intent, but it seems overly harsh. None of that works from a logic perspective anyways.

"If the models can be placed on top, with their edge touching the 'valid area of disembarkation', in coherency, AND not within 1" of an enemy then they are safe."

that's where you lose me. if you are doing an Emergency Disembark you can't get on top of the vehcle.

the had to leave. if they can stay in it, why would the be able to get onto it?

because the vehickle is destroyed. forgget emergancy disembarking due to a pen shot. we are discussing destroyed results. obviously if the vehicke is not destroyed they will be in the disembarked zone as they wont climb on top of the vehicle. if destroyed then they can be on top as tecknically the vehicke is no longer there, its a wreck so its broken peices of vehicle that they can stand on top of, hide behind etc.

I agree with Glaive

because the vehickle is destroyed. forgget emergancy disembarking due to a pen shot.

The problem with making that distinction is that there are no seperate rules for disembarking in specific situations. There is only a single set of Disembarking rules that apply all the time.

So either models can disembark on top of the vehicle/wreck, or they can't. The same rules will always apply when you disembark, since there is only the one set of rules for disembarking.

I'm going to try to make this as simple as I can. There seem to be two big myths perpetrating around this thread that simply are not possible in actual gameplay.


Myth #1: Vehicle Wrecks are still "vehicles" and therefore have access points.

Vehicle Wrecks cannot still be vehicles if you want the game of 40k to function. Vehicle Wrecks don't have Access Points because they are not vehicles (in the game sense, even though the model may still be on the table). If Vehicle Wrecks were still "vehicles" then they would also be able to shoot, move, embark/disembark passengers etc.

In essence, destroying a vehicle would mean absolutely nothing except for the damage to the passengers, and the ability for models to move on top of the vehicle now.

Vehicle Wrecks simply cannot stil be "vehicles"; meaning they do not have Access Points anymore then they have an Armor Value, weapons, Fire Points, etc.

The only properties that Vehicle Wrecks have (based on what the rules give them) is that they block LOS as a vehicle, and models on or behind them gain a cover save. That's ALL that wrecks do. Period.


Myth #2: I can disembark my passengers directly into the wreck because it's no longer a vehicle model.

While (as I have shown above) a Vehicle Wreck indeed cannot possibly be considered a vehicle model anymore, there is one huge fundamental problem with this myth. And that is: Models must disembark from Access Points and only vehicle models have Access Points.

So unless you want to play that models can never disembark from a destroyed vehicle, you must accept that the passengers disembark while the vehicle is still a vehicle model (and not a wreck). I'm going to leave the issue of passengers getting hit "twice" by an exploding vehicle out of this, because honestly it has no bearing on this particular part of the issue.

If passengers are indeed disembarking from a vehicle model (which you must accept otherwise there are no Access Points on a wreck for them to disembark from), then they cannot per the rules be placed on top of the vehicle model.

There simply isn't any other logical way to play the game people!

*Wrecks cannot have Access Points unless they are still vehicles (which would mean they could still move around and shoot too!).
*Access points are needed to disembark, therefore we must play that models disembark while the vehicle is still a vehicle model.
*Models cannot be placed on top of other models, so therefore disembarking models must always be placed outside the vehicle model (and not on top of it).


I really don't understand how the issue can be truly argued another way without the game essentially completely breaking down.

"If passengers are indeed disembarking from a vehicle model (which you must accept otherwise there are no Access Points on a wreck for them to disembark from), then they cannot per the rules be placed on top of the vehicle model.



*Models cannot be placed on top of other models, so therefore disembarking models must always be placed outside the vehicle model (and not on top of it)."

exactly!

i agree with yaks first point but not his second.