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Okay, so here's the question that came up in another thread: can Drop Pods (in an Unbound list, mind you) transport units that they were not purchased for?

Here's the rules quote, as it was quoted to me:

"The only Limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent Characters that have joined it) . After the game begins it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions as explained in the vehicles entry."

drop pods, other than the forge world ones, are always purchased as dedicated transports.

So no, they can only carry the unit they were purchased with.

The Unbound rules would allow you to take the pod without having to buy it for a squad... but it is still selected from the 'Dedicated Transports' section of the codex, so the Dedicated Transport rule would still apply. It can only start the game transporting the unit it was purchased for. If you didn't purchase a unit with it, it's starting empty.

 insaniak wrote:
The Unbound rules would allow you to take the pod without having to buy it for a squad... but it is still selected from the 'Dedicated Transports' section of the codex, so the Dedicated Transport rule would still apply. It can only start the game transporting the unit it was purchased for. If you didn't purchase a unit with it, it's starting empty.

Im not so sure because of this:

After the game begins it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions as explained in the vehicles entry."

This sentence leads me to believe that you can indeed place another unit inside a Drop Pod After the Game Begins, so if the game begins after deployment the Drop Pod starts in Reserve and dont deploy on the table right away, therefore wouldnt the Unbound squad then (for lack of a better word or phrase) "embark" upon the Drop Pod before it makes it to the table?

That was my thoughts exactly when I was thinking of putting Scions in Drop Pods. It comes down to when "After the Game Begins" officially takes place. If it technically begins at the start of turn 1 that means since the Drop Pods are all in reserve because they have to start there the "friendly unit" or Scions in my case could be placed inside it.

So that drop pod... Who can be in it when it deploys?

Hint: not scions.

 Rommel44 wrote:
This sentence leads me to believe that you can indeed place another unit inside a Drop Pod After the Game Begins, so if the game begins after deployment the Drop Pod starts in Reserve and dont deploy on the table right away, therefore wouldnt the Unbound squad then (for lack of a better word or phrase) "embark" upon the Drop Pod before it makes it to the table?

You declare which units are in transports when you put them in reserve, which happens during the deployment phase.

You can't 'embark' reserve units onto reserve transports after the game has begun.

Drop Pod still follows the rules for dedicated transports (since thats its only option) so only can have a unit embark on it if it were dedicated to that units.

As such Scions can not get into a drop pod.

 insaniak wrote:
You declare which units are in transports when you put them in reserve, which happens during the deployment phase. You can't 'embark' reserve units onto reserve transports after the game has begun.

This. As much as I'd like to use Drop Pods for, say, my SoB it's not possible. Unless your group does a house rule for that.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Drop Pod still follows the rules for dedicated transports (since thats its only option) so only can have a unit embark on it if it were dedicated to that units.

Other units can embark into dedicated transports. They just can't start the game in them.

Which doesn't help drop pods, obviously, but is useful for other transports.

This one seems pretty one-sided.

 insaniak wrote:
The Unbound rules would allow you to take the pod without having to buy it for a squad... but it is still selected from the 'Dedicated Transports' section of the codex, so the Dedicated Transport rule would still apply. It can only start the game transporting the unit it was purchased for. If you didn't purchase a unit with it, it's starting empty.

Even if you purchased it for no specific unit?

For example BA Tacticals allow for them to take a Dedicated Transport as part of their options. But they don't have to. You could buy say a Rhino just to have a Rhino, attach it to no squad. With the drop pod, could you not do the same and simply load something up during the initial deployment?

 Lobomalo wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
The Unbound rules would allow you to take the pod without having to buy it for a squad... but it is still selected from the 'Dedicated Transports' section of the codex, so the Dedicated Transport rule would still apply. It can only start the game transporting the unit it was purchased for. If you didn't purchase a unit with it, it's starting empty.

Even if you purchased it for no specific unit?

For example BA Tacticals allow for them to take a Dedicated Transport as part of their options. But they don't have to. You could buy say a Rhino just to have a Rhino, attach it to no squad. With the drop pod, could you not do the same and simply load something up during the initial deployment?

No, because during initial deployment the only unit that can start inside is the unit that bought it.

 Lobomalo wrote:

You could buy say a Rhino just to have a Rhino, attach it to no squad.

You can't do this at all. None of the marine codexes can do this

Same goes for drop pods

Really? I don't recall anything stating you can only take a Rhino if you have it attached with someone, let me go check really quick and I'll edit this if I am wrong.

Edit: Not seeing anything in BRB or codex saying they cannot deploy solo. I'll keep looking.

The codex only gives you the option to buy a rhino via given a unit the option to buy a rhino. If it had given you the option to buy it normally would actually take up a force org slot like fast attack

I get that, just wanted something specific in case the issue comes up.

 Lobomalo wrote:
I get that, just wanted something specific in case the issue comes up.

The specific lack of options to buy it outside of dedicated transport is all you need

 CrownAxe wrote:
The codex only gives you the option to buy a rhino via given a unit the option to buy a rhino. If it had given you the option to buy it normally would actually take up a force org slot like fast attack

I might be wrong, but given the Unbound rules, I thought a unit with a point cost COULD be purchased, even without the unit normally needed to unlock it. So (again, in an Unbound army) you could field twenty space marine servitor squads with no masters of the forge or techmarines. Or drop a wave of umpteen billion empty drop pods, with no squads to have purchased them. (I can actually think of several useful reasons to do this...)

You still COULDN'T put a unit in them that didn't buy the pod, during the initial deployment (which is the only time anyone can get in a pod).

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
I get that, just wanted something specific in case the issue comes up.

The specific lack of options to buy it outside of dedicated transport is all you need

Some would argue that the lack of a rule telling you that you cannot means you can. It works both ways

 Lobomalo wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
I get that, just wanted something specific in case the issue comes up.

The specific lack of options to buy it outside of dedicated transport is all you need

Some would argue that the lack of a rule telling you that you cannot means you can. It works both ways

Generally, no, it only works the one way. You have to have a rule saying you can, or you can't. (There are all kinds of things the rules don't say I CAN'T do, that are completely ridiculous.)

There is, however, some wiggle room in the rules for what you can take in an Unbound army, at least the way I understand it to work.

Was discussing this the other day actually and it ended 50/50, some require permission to do something, others look for something restrictive, we agree to disagree, interestingly, the GW shop manager was on the side of restrictive. But I've noticed nobody cares about the opinions of GW staff here.

I can see the reasoning for not allowing it though so I don't mind needing permission for it to happen to make it happen.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Was discussing this the other day actually and it ended 50/50, some require permission to do something, others look for something restrictive, we agree to disagree, interestingly, the GW shop manager was on the side of restrictive. But I've noticed nobody cares about the opinions of GW staff here.

I can see the reasoning for not allowing it though so I don't mind needing permission for it to happen to make it happen.

In 40K you always require permission to do anything. There are some rules that, after permission is given, take away those permissions, but the permission must be given first.

Like a vehicle can move up to a certain distance in the movement phase. there is a rule that takes away this permission and it is the Immobilized rule. so an Immobilized vehicle can not move even though it has permission to move up to a certain distance in the movement phase, this is because there is an additional rule stating it may not move.

Looking for something restrictive will not get you anywhere. It does not restrict me from putting my Landraider that was exploded back onto the field and using it the turn after it was removed, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Was discussing this the other day actually and it ended 50/50, some require permission to do something, others look for something restrictive, we agree to disagree, interestingly, the GW shop manager was on the side of restrictive. But I've noticed nobody cares about the opinions of GW staff here.

I can see the reasoning for not allowing it though so I don't mind needing permission for it to happen to make it happen.

In 40K you always require permission to do anything. There are some rules that, after permission is given, take away those permissions, but the permission must be given first.

Like a vehicle can move up to a certain distance in the movement phase. there is a rule that takes away this permission and it is the Immobilized rule. so an Immobilized vehicle can not move even though it has permission to move up to a certain distance in the movement phase, this is because there is an additional rule stating it may not move.

Looking for something restrictive will not get you anywhere. It does not restrict me from putting my Landraider that was exploded back onto the field and using it the turn after it was removed, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

I read the thread that you guys got closed that was about permissive/restrictive. Logic defeats your last premise as does general obviousness, but like I said, I don't mind working with permissions, it saves me some arguments

How does logic defeat his last point? You're saying the rules are restrictive and if they don't say you can't do some then you can. Show me the rule that states I can't put extra models on the table during the game.

 Lobomalo wrote:
I read the thread that you guys got closed that was about permissive/restrictive. Logic defeats your last premise as does general obviousness, but like I said, I don't mind working with permissions, it saves me some arguments

It is good that "don't mind working with permissions" because that is how the ruleset is written.

You need to have permission to do something. If permission is not there you can not take that action.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
I get that, just wanted something specific in case the issue comes up.

The specific lack of options to buy it outside of dedicated transport is all you need

You've got this slightly wrong. You have general permission to buy anything with a points value for your list. In a battle forged army you are restricted to purchasing certain numbers of units from certain slots dependant on detachment. Every detachment type (thus far) has had no slots for dedicated transports hence you've not been able to take them. In unbound I could have a 3.5k list of 100 empty drop pods if I wanted as there is no restriction on where I purchase my units from. The rules state simply use anything from your collection.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
I read the thread that you guys got closed that was about permissive/restrictive. Logic defeats your last premise as does general obviousness, but like I said, I don't mind working with permissions, it saves me some arguments

It is good that "don't mind working with permissions" because that is how the ruleset is written.

You need to have permission to do something. If permission is not there you can not take that action.

Except this permissive thing you guys like to have on these forums, seems to only exist on these forums and not in the actual stores where people, at least in all the stores I frequent, play.

 Jimsolo wrote:

I might be wrong, but given the Unbound rules, I thought a unit with a point cost COULD be purchased, even without the unit normally needed to unlock it.

I think this is not the case. There are a number of restrictions on Unbound lists, and there's nothing that gives specific permission to override, say, Honor Guard's requirement to have a Chapter Master in the army.

Lobo, I appreciate that you don't agree with the concept, but the idea of a permissive rules set is pretty widely accepted.

In any event, this thread is NOT the place to rehash those arguments. Let's please not go over them again here. I'd like NOT to have this thread locked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

I might be wrong, but given the Unbound rules, I thought a unit with a point cost COULD be purchased, even without the unit normally needed to unlock it.

I think this is not the case. There are a number of restrictions on Unbound lists, and there's nothing that gives specific permission to override, say, Honor Guard's requirement to have a Chapter Master in the army.

"Simply use whichever units from your collection you want." That definitely seems to give permission to use the Drop Pods, even without the squad. You still have to pay the points of course.

That does NOT give you permission to field the selected models in an illegal manner, however. (Like putting scouts in a Drop Pod.)