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So The Ends Times Book 1 has been out for a few days now, and most people have had time to digest it.

This thread is focusing purely on the Mortarchs, primarily Mannfred, Arkhan and Neferata.

What are your thoughts and opinions?

I'm unsure how I feel about combined profiles for both rider and mount. On the one hand I like that it eliminates the possibility of your rider or monster being killed and causing immense psychosis for not having miniatures to represent them separately, but on the other hand I'd have really liked an opportunity to field them on foot or riding other existing monsters. Neferata on Coven Throne or Mannfred on Zombie Dragon would have been the shizzle.

As for the strength of the Mortarchs, I think they seem ok. I love the idea of having such a colossal wound pool on models that can regenerate themselves through spells. My biggest issue with them really is the complete lack of saves. Both rider and mount in all cases appear to be wearing some fairly thick plates, and yet Mannfred is the only one who's likely to ever get a saving throw of any kind. Even some kind of mild Regeneration Save would have been greatly appreciated. I mean seriously, are they taking the biscuit with Arkhan and Neferata's save?

Talking of the Mortarchs individually, Mannfred looks like he's a clear winner over the other two. Arkhan the Black seems like he was meant to be the castiest, Neferata the stabbiest, but I think Mannfred just ends up being superior to both for the same amount of points.

The combined armor save is strange certainly, but what really is worth noting is that there is no difference effectively between the attacks made by the riders and their mounts.

So you have a Large Target General that causes Terror and has a 6+ armor save with T6 and 8 to 10 Wounds, then anywhere from 7 to 9 attacks.


Personally though I'm liking Vlad and Krell quite a bit. Vlad as the Mortarch of Shadows opens up some interesting possibilities as a 500 point Lord in a 1000 point game.

I will also be quite intrigued to see the remaining three Mortarchs(if you read the end of the Nagash background book, you know who the sixth Mortarch is). We know there are nine Mortarchs.

Also it's worth noting that they put a great big "I" on the side of the combined rules/background set so I look forward to volume II.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The combined armor save is strange certainly, but what really is worth noting is that there is no difference effectively between the attacks made by the riders and their mounts.

So you have a Large Target General that causes Terror and has a 6+ armor save with T6 and 8 to 10 Wounds, then anywhere from 7 to 9 attacks.


Personally though I'm liking Vlad and Krell quite a bit. Vlad as the Mortarch of Shadows opens up some interesting possibilities as a 500 point Lord in a 1000 point game.

I will also be quite intrigued to see the remaining three Mortarchs(if you read the end of the Nagash background book, you know who the sixth Mortarch is). We know there are nine Mortarchs.

Also it's worth noting that they put a great big "I" on the side of the combined rules/background set so I look forward to volume II.

And then you'll get III and IV too. It's gonna be four books as far as we know. The third one seems to coincide with a Skaven release, so I'm thinking we might see that one being about the Skaven involvement in the end times. I'm interested in the fluff, not so much in the price tag of buying all four books...

 Kanluwen wrote:

I will also be quite intrigued to see the remaining three Mortarchs(if you read the end of the Nagash background book, you know who the sixth Mortarch is). We know there are nine Mortarchs.

I can't read that fast! It's like a gazillion pages long :O

I've read it but that was a long time & many books ago, could you just spoiler warning it for us?

Bear in mind I'm referring to the background book that came as part of your "End Times" purchase. The sixth Mortarch introduced there was really a surprise as it seemed to be a strange choice.

I'm also putting in quite a bit of extraneous text so that we don't have the spoiler accidentally bleeding through, as it can happen.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Bear in mind I'm referring to the background book that came as part of your "End Times" purchase. The sixth Mortarch introduced there was really a surprise as it seemed to be a strange choice.

I'm also putting in quite a bit of extraneous text so that we don't have the spoiler accidentally bleeding through, as it can happen.

Spoiler:

The sixth Mortarch that we get introduced towards the end is Khalida, as she chooses to bow before Nagash and then bide her time waiting for vengeance rather than simply be obliterated.

hmm interesting - I really must pick up the books - how do they read - is it a good story- I love the Nagash Triology and Blood of Nagash books - does it make sense from their perspective? I don't play Fantasy anymore but love the background.

I would have thought most of the named Mortarchs would be ploting to find a way to both kill Nagash and/or take his power - although

The Green Knight reveals his Identity. Yes. It is Karl Franz.

 Mr Morden wrote:

hmm interesting - I really must pick up the books - how do they read - is it a good story- I love the Nagash Triology and Blood of Nagash books - does it make sense from their perspective? I don't play Fantasy anymore but love the background.

To give you an idea, the "Book II" part is just the rules for the Lore of Undeath, Nagash, the Undead Legion, Mortarchs, and the scenarios. The first book is all background.
And it is two hundred and ninety seven pages of fluff with a few of those pages being gorgeous art plates.

What's more, if you were to buy the boxed set? You can actually sell Book II to someone and probably recoup most of the cost.

I would have thought most of the named Mortarchs would be ploting to find a way to both kill Nagash and/or take his power

Interestingly enough, there are hintings about that to begin with.

Kanluwen wrote:I will also be quite intrigued to see the remaining three Mortarchs(if you read the end of the Nagash background book, you know who the sixth Mortarch is). We know there are nine Mortarchs.

For the next three Mortarchs I do have some ideas.

The most likely and the one I can not see not being one eventually is Abhorash, founder of the blood dragons. Seeing how he is the vampire who does not want to be a vampire I can see him being forced into the army and eventually betraying Nagash in the end.

The next would be Ushoran, founder of the Strigoi bloodline, there is not a lot about him available but I think it would be cool to bring him back both from a narrative point as Neferata's brother and having his bloodline be betrayed and hunted by other vampires and from a gameplay view as I like Ghoul kings and having the first as a major character would be cool.

For the third I'm not very certain, the most likely would be Konrad, W'soran or Melkhior.

I'm thinking Abhorash(he's already gone to Nagash's call before), Walach Harkon(one of Abhorash's disciples who is actually in Vlad's forces), and possibly Melkhior.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

hmm interesting - I really must pick up the books - how do they read - is it a good story- I love the Nagash Triology and Blood of Nagash books - does it make sense from their perspective? I don't play Fantasy anymore but love the background.

To give you an idea, the "Book II" part is just the rules for the Lore of Undeath, Nagash, the Undead Legion, Mortarchs, and the scenarios. The first book is all background.
And it is two hundred and ninety seven pages of fluff with a few of those pages being gorgeous art plates.

What's more, if you were to buy the boxed set? You can actually sell Book II to someone and probably recoup most of the cost.

I would have thought most of the named Mortarchs would be ploting to find a way to both kill Nagash and/or take his power

Interestingly enough, there are hintings about that to begin with.

All sounds great

I'm expecting someone more sorta out there... someone who falls in battle and is resurrected. Someone from the Empire maybe?

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm thinking Abhorash(he's already gone to Nagash's call before), Walach Harkon(one of Abhorash's disciples who is actually in Vlad's forces), and possibly Melkhior.

Pretty sure Walach Harkon threw in his lot with Chaos. It's in the chapter of the background book where Valten is battling Chaos. I will have to double check, but I'm pretty sure their betrayal allows them to clutch victory from the jaws of defeat for Chaos in the last battle.

Melkhior is said to have had his brains fried by the newly born Nagash, after his resurrection, he put out a mental recruitment notice to all undead throughout the world. Melkhior, it is said, was deep fried because he refused and presumed to be as powerful as Nagash and he showed him how wrong he was. Everliving no more. I remember this clearly because I had a theory after reading the novel Master of Death that Melchior was actually W'soran. May well have been, for all we know now.

Edit: Wait, may have been Zacharias, I'll double check.

Edit2: Ya, I got Zacharaias/Melkhior mixed up. I'm right about Harkon, as he's the one that knocks Karl Franz out of the air in the final battle in the chapter that focuses on the Empire.

 SirDigby wrote:


Talking of the Mortarchs individually, Mannfred looks like he's a clear winner over the other two. Arkhan the Black seems like he was meant to be the castiest, Neferata the stabbiest, but I think Mannfred just ends up being superior to both for the same amount of points.

Don't remind me...

Just a general question about the fluff here. I know how Mannfred came back, but when did Vlad get dug out of the ground? Is it covered in the book?

Nagash does it, he literally takes a handful of Mannfreds flesh, forcefully, and is able to raise Vlad from the link that they have by blood. It's more in depth in the novel, but it wasn't pleasant for Mannfred.

Ok, I was wondering what happened. Glad to see him back in the plot line though. Have they mentioned anything about the ring? Or is it still walled up with the White Wolf?

Nocturus wrote:
Ok, I was wondering what happened. Glad to see him back in the plot line though. Have they mentioned anything about the ring? Or is it still walled up with the White Wolf?

He's regained it in his new rules, so I imagine they've covered it in the fluff somewhere, I've just not got around to reading it yet.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm thinking Abhorash(he's already gone to Nagash's call before), Walach Harkon(one of Abhorash's disciples who is actually in Vlad's forces), and possibly Melkhior.

I'd bet on Aborash and Zacharias.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nevermind

Sigh zack is dead

 nels1031 wrote:
Nagash does it, he literally takes a handful of Mannfreds flesh, forcefully, and is able to raise Vlad from the link that they have by blood. It's more in depth in the novel, but it wasn't pleasant for Mannfred.

Was Mannfred controlled by Nagash to bring him back - just having difficulty seeing why he would want to to do it on his own volition - unless he stupidly thought he could control Nagash?

He's Mannfred. Of course he thought he could control Nagash.

Well, más bien, he thought he could USE Nagash. He probably wasn't quite arrogant enough to think he could control him.

Mr Morden wrote:
Was Mannfred controlled by Nagash to bring him back - just having difficulty seeing why he would want to to do it on his own volition - unless he stupidly thought he could control Nagash?

spyguyyoda wrote:He's Mannfred. Of course he thought he could control Nagash.

Well, más bien, he thought he could USE Nagash. He probably wasn't quite arrogant enough to think he could control him.

That's exactly what Mannfred thought he could do. His plan was to do something during the ritual to bring Nagash back that would allow control over him. However because of the High Elves and Arkham that did not work and Nagash is now in control.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

hmm interesting - I really must pick up the books - how do they read - is it a good story- I love the Nagash Triology and Blood of Nagash books - does it make sense from their perspective? I don't play Fantasy anymore but love the background.

To give you an idea, the "Book II" part is just the rules for the Lore of Undeath, Nagash, the Undead Legion, Mortarchs, and the scenarios. The first book is all background.
And it is two hundred and ninety seven pages of fluff with a few of those pages being gorgeous art plates.

What's more, if you were to buy the boxed set? You can actually sell Book II to someone and probably recoup most of the cost.

I would have thought most of the named Mortarchs would be ploting to find a way to both kill Nagash and/or take his power

Interestingly enough, there are hintings about that to begin with.

Picked this up now and really really impressed - lots of lovely art, good story - loads of great references to older parts of the Warhammer lore (*) - good to see them putting things like this together.

(*) Castle Drachenfels, the emmisary to Gelt being from Parravon - Genevieve Dieudonné ? Great stuff