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I was going to post this to reddit today so I could spare you all another one of these "HALP! n00b!" posts, but ummm well.... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/620677.page

Anyway, I'm getting the itch again to play 40k. It's the most popular game in my area, and I haven't been able to get any other games to catch on. SO! I had a really rough time in 6th. I had a small DE army that I bought, painted and sold (for PROFIT!!!). I got a chance to play a few games with it, and I felt like I was back in Biology memorizing so many rules and stats. OR, I would look it up in the rules, flipping back and force while my opponent would politely smile and be patient or offer what little knowledge he had of the army. I ended up playing with someone else's Eldar-my and it was more of the same.

I really felt quite stupid. I'm a full-on grownup with a college degree, and I couldn't understand this game that seemed so easily grasped by other people (even the other noobs). I seriously spent days just reading and re-reading the codex and rulebook to figure it out. Then, I looked at Fantasy, and HOLY CRAP! it made a lot of sense. I even demoed Kings of War, which was really slick and easy to pick up, but the games I played just seemed to lack that thrill that 40k gives.... so I picked up some new stuff.

This is my main problem. I love getting a few boxes here, a few boxes there, and building and painting. I usually have a lot of fun watching people play as well. I just don't know if I can collect an "army", play it, and be content with that. Does that make me a bad wargamer? I understand that 7th has blown it all open with Unbound, but that seems extra cumbersome as I would then have to memorize or constantly flip back and forth to find all the rules for multiple factions (not to mention coming up with a good reason for them to be fighting together). It all seems so "Calvinball" to me. http://calvinandhobbes.wikia.com/wiki/Calvinball... Currently, I am digging the fluff of Space Wolves, and I like that they actually have armor, unlike my elves. I've looked into smaller-scale games, and smaller versions of 40k like Kill Team, Death Squads, etc. No one around here seems to care about those, so I borrowed a copy of 7th edition. In some ways, the info is presented much clearer than 6th, but there are just so many tiny arbitrary rules that I doubt I'll really be able to get through a full game without flipping or just going along with whatever my opponent says. I'm hoping that I'm missing something here, as 2/3 of 40k is AMAZING for me, just not the rules. I looked at earlier versions and they made a lot more sense, but I think everyone around here would be bored with it.

If I had to boil it all down, my ideal army would have all of the following:
- variety of models, color schemes, conversions (i.e, fun to look at when I'm not playing)
- few vehicles or tanks (they just don't excite me to paint and take up too much space)
- Space Marines are okay, I just think they can get a bit silly with the Dreadknights and stuff.
- TACTICS favoring a balanced approach. I don't want to spam anything in order to have a decent list (see #1). Ideally, I would stick to the Primary Force Org Chart and do alright. I would certainly want a mix of shooting and close-combat, with psykers buffing instead of blasting.
- special rules are okay, but i would really like to avoid my entire army turning into something else (that I probably don't own).


Is there any hope? Should I just stick to skirmish, and go hang historically with my dad group every once in a while? Should I look into Fantasy again, since the rules at least "clicked"?

It depends how long it's already been- it took me a whole year to fully grasp the rules so it may help to persist. Equally it's a time and money consuming hobby to persist in, and if it doesn't work out then it's a real sinker. It sounds like you like the modelling/painting side which always helps in staying motivated. As for which army, the criteria you've laid down fit perfectly with the Space Marines, so they're probably your best bet (except for the varied colour schemes, but nothing stops you painting them however). Considering you like Space Wolves already, it may make sense to go to them, although I don't know how similar they are rules wise to regular SM, which is what I'm familiar with.

Have you considered Aspect Warrior Eldar?

Each squad has ONE kind of weapon, with usually ONE special weapon option. Each aspect has a unique look and scheme. Most aspects, besides Fire Dragons, work without vehicles needed, though of course wave serpents are very strong. You get bikers (shining spears ) angel-man drop troops, heavy missile launcher Reapers, Predator infiltrator Scorpions...and you can just bits-n-pieces build an army.

I will warn you now that a balanced army with a minimum number of tanks/transports is going to get demolished in 7th. 7th rewards you for spamming the most OP stuff in your book and putting them in your most OP transport. Do you care about winning or do you just want a cool looking army?

What helped me pick things up here in 7th is to watch long battle reports like Miniwargaming and Xeno Vids, where they show the dice rolls. At each roll of the dice or even at movement phase in some cases, if you don't get what exactly happened, why they rolled what they did trying to get the result they wanted to get, look it up. The stuff you do get, obviously you don't need to look it up.

In a normal game, a lot of things just don't need to be learned. I don't know how to stomp, since I don't use Lords Of War much less the specific type of Lord of War that can stomp, so I don't care about that entire section of rules. Miniwargaming shows plenty of the 'normal game' environment and a quick glance at the comments will let you know if the guys did something wrong. Less memorizing outright and more 'I see they did that and now I see the reason' type thing. Worked for me atleast.

Toofast wrote:
I will warn you now that a balanced army with a minimum number of tanks/transports is going to get demolished in 7th. 7th rewards you for spamming the most OP stuff in your book and putting them in your most OP transport. Do you care about winning or do you just want a cool looking army?

I saw 6 riptides in one game the other day...6 riptides.

I won't elaborate on "40k is this way or that way", there are enough others who do that. I will just say that if you have a group of reasonable people with whom you play 40k has a flexible framework of rules which allow to have fun with those people. Want mass battles with giant models? Apocalypse. Want low model count? Either do small points or try the Kill Team rules. Cities of death will give you city fights with special rules/events.

Just keep in mind that many people here will focus on "competitiveness" and tournament, a setting which probably only concerns a fraction of all 40k players. So don't ask those if you just want to have some wargaming fun in your free time.

To be completely honest I would not recommend 40k unless you really really like the figures, don't care about balance and if you have a regular group of people to play with i.e. not just going to a game shop and playing whomever turns up.

The figures are generally great (albeit very expensive), the fluff is good but stagnant, but the game itself is a complete mess. The rules themselves are vague and ambiguous so you generally have to agree on how to treat various things, there is little or no balance so those expensive units you bought might be garbage just because, and the game itself encourages constant buying of things. You need to scour eBay just to outfit a squad with certain options, because the boxed set only comes with say one of each type of weapon and the company line is literally just buy more boxes. A unit that's great now might be made complete crap in a later edition just to push you to buy something new to replace it, because otherwise you wouldn't need to buy more. Essentially everything in the game is to drive buying expensive figures, game be damned.

If it's the most popular game in your area, and the people are nice, then you can have fun with 40k although IMHO it's still way overpriced, but if you have fun it's something you can justify.

Toofast wrote:
I will warn you now that a balanced army with a minimum number of tanks/transports is going to get demolished in 7th. 7th rewards you for spamming the most OP stuff in your book and putting them in your most OP transport. Do you care about winning or do you just want a cool looking army?

I don't HAVE TO WIN, but it would be nice to do more than get tabled. I tend to find that I can paint larger models like transports in no time, plus they cost more money and take up more space. It's one of the reasons I like Space Wolves... So I suppose yes. "Cool army" 1st, "not dying immediately" 2nd.

 Murenius wrote:
I won't elaborate on "40k is this way or that way", there are enough others who do that. I will just say that if you have a group of reasonable people with whom you play 40k has a flexible framework of rules which allow to have fun with those people. Want mass battles with giant models? Apocalypse. Want low model count? Either do small points or try the Kill Team rules. Cities of death will give you city fights with special rules/events.

Just keep in mind that many people here will focus on "competitiveness" and tournament, a setting which probably only concerns a fraction of all 40k players. So don't ask those if you just want to have some wargaming fun in your free time.

The local group seems to be more focused on narrative and fun, but I know most of them also use the LGS to practice their tournament lists. I really can't see myself owning 2000+pts of any one army just from looking at the models. Hmm...

WayneTheGame wrote:
To be completely honest I would not recommend 40k unless you really really like the figures, don't care about balance and if you have a regular group of people to play with i.e. not just going to a game shop and playing whomever turns up.
.....
If it's the most popular game in your area, and the people are nice, then you can have fun with 40k although IMHO it's still way overpriced, but if you have fun it's something you can justify.

This is what prevented me from diving into 4th, 5th and 6th editions as well. The former two because I was broke, and the latter because it seemed like the game was.



I might collect a smallish force that I like the look of and see where it goes from there. No tournaments for me. THANKS gang!!

See if you can find people to play kill team.

You can collect a small force, and it'll feel more complete and intimate knowing it'll be used for that size of game.

You could also run a multi codex army. Let say you take IG base, and then add SW to it . You could run 2 squads of grey hunters an HQ a unit of TWC and still have points left for an IG army.

For small games kill team could be an option. If people play it in you area, but be warned w40k is more unbalanced the smaller points you play. units which may seem too good at 1500pts, dont scale well in to 750 or 500.

melkorthetonedeaf wrote:I really felt quite stupid. I'm a full-on grownup with a college degree, and I couldn't understand this game that seemed so easily grasped by other people (even the other noobs).

40k has a very shallow amount of stuff you need to know, but it simultaneously has a very steep learning curve. What that means is that it's impossible to remember what's going on until it all sort of suddenly makes sense.

The best way to go about it is to first memorize the charts and little shorthands (to hit is 7 minus BS, S equal to T is 4+, and then move one in either direction per point of disparity, etc.), and then just focus on the rules you need for your army. Take easy stuff like infantry, and learn those rules well, and then when you add some jump infantry, you can go "oh, this follows the exact same rules set for infantry, except..."

There are a lot of rules to 40k, but once you get it, you get it. Just be patient, I guess.

You don't have to spam OP units to have a good time. Quite the contrary. I find it rewarding to prevail with a normal list. How could it be rewarding to win if you know it was only because you exploited OP units? I beat A 2 Riptide list the other day (including the crazy powerful forgeworld one). I used:
Wolf Lord on thunderwolf.
Rune priest
3x Grey Hunters squads in drop pods.
2x dreadnoughts.
1x large unit of thunderwolf cavalry.
2x long fang squads.

Was a lot of fun. Quite a variety in that list but still got strength where it counts. You have to strike a balance between competitive and variety/cool in my opinion. Without the 3 Grey Hunter squads in drop pods I would have lost for sure. That forced my opponent to choose between shooting at the squads that were in his face killing him, or the Thunderwolves that surely will when they reach his lines.

Play Space Wolves, they're fun! And not many people play them so that's always a good thing in 40k. No mirror matches!

6 Riptides!? What a douche! Someone should sweeping advance his army off the table. That's what I did to my mates Riptides the other day. They can't fight a close combat to save their lives (literally).

There are other people who like playing few vehicles as well. At some of my FLGS, there are tables where players agree to restrict the number of vehicles, simply because they wish to play more ground units. Frankly, it makes it a different game.

By the book though, vehicles and mobility are very important.

Personally, I love 40k for the universe and models. My favorite models are Space Wolves and Dark Eldar