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I know many others have thought of this, but I've thought vehicles need an Armour Save or Armour Save equivalent for a while now and so I've come up with some rules for 'Hull Saves' - Armour Saves for vehicles! The goal was to not only remove the problem of non-AT or non-AH/MT (Anti Heavy/Medium Tank) weaponry being effective or more efficient at destroying tanks than actual AT weaponry. In a former version of these rules the Hull Save was equal to 7- Initially Hull Points but that had the problem of just making heavy vehicles tougher while medium and light vehicles gained little protection(or in most cases none) against non-AT weapons.
It probably needs some more play testing but this current version seems more fair, though I still think it neuters Haywire weapons too much and Lances may be a bit much - currently working on that (having Haywire ignore Hull Saves may be too powerful, same for Lance. I'm thinking of making them cap the save at a maximum value though I haven't tested it yet)
Spoiler:
Hull Saves The many vehicles of the 41st Millennium can not take damage equally. While a vehicle's Armour Values represents the thickness of the vehicle's hull and its Hull Points represent the amount of damage a vehicle can take, a vehicle's Hull Save represents the difficulty of a hit to successfully penetrate or glance the vehicle in a way that would damage the vehicle. For this reason a Hull Save is treated exactly like an armour save with the exception that they may be taken whenever the vehicle suffers a penetrating or glancing hit. this means the Armour Piercing value of attacking weapons does effect a Hull Saves and against any glancing or penetrating hits that ignore all armour saves a Hull Save may not be taken.
What's my Hull Save? Unless specifically stated otherwise, a vehicles hull save is equal to 6 - its initial number of hull points. Additional modifiers may apply. (Vehicle Type, etc.) As the maximum value of a Hull Save is a 2+, if a vehicle has 5 or more Hull Points, or because of additional modifiers the number equals 1 or less, the vehicle has a 2+ Hull Save.
For example, a Space Marine Land Raider initially has 4 Hull Points. As 6-4=2, a Land Raider has a Hull Save of a 2+. On the other hand, a Space Marines Rhino only has 3 Hull Points initially, therefore it only has a Hull Save of a 3+. (6-3=3)
Vehicle Types and Hull Saves Certain Vehicle Types effect the value of a vehicle's Hull Save.
Flyers Unless specifically stated otherwise, the maximum Hull Save of a vehicle with the Flyer type can get is a 4+.
Chariots Unless specifically stated otherwise, the maximum Hull Save of a vehicle with the Chariot type can get is a 4+.
Open-Topped Vehicles When determining a vehicles Hull Save, vehicles with the Open-Topped type suffer an additional +1 penalty to the result, unless it's specifically stated to have an exact Hull Save.
For example, as an Ork Warbuggy has 2 Hull Points, its Hull Save would usually be a 4+ (6-2=4), however as the Warbuggy has the Open-Topped type, it has a Hull Save of a 5+ (6-2+1=5).
Heavy Vehicles When determining a vehicles Hull Save, vehicles with the Open-Topped type suffer an additional -1 modifier to the result, unless it's specifically stated to have an exact Hull Save.
For example, as an Astra Militarum Leman Russ Battle Tank has 3 Hull Points, its Hull Save would usually be a 3+ (6-3=3), however as the Leman Russ Battle Tank has the Heavy type, it has a Hull Save of a 2+ (6-3-1=2).
Vehicle Damage and Hull Saves Whenever a Vehicle suffers a Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised result, its Hull Save is worsened by 1.
For example, the aforementioned Astra Militarum Leman Russ Battle Tank suffers a Weapon Destroyed result and its Heavy Bolter is destroyed because of it. Because it suffered this damage it now has a Hull Save of a 3+ as opposed to a 2+.
Special Rules and Hull Saves Certain special rules can effect Hull Saves.
Armourbane If a vehicle suffers a penetrating or glancing hit from an attack with the Armourbane special rule it must re-roll successful Hull Saves against it.
Destroyer If a vehicle suffers a penetrating hit from an attack with the Destroyer special rule it may not take a Hull Save against it
Lance If a vehicle suffers a penetrating or glancing hit from an attack with the Lance special rule it may not take a Hull Save against it.
Melta If a vehicle suffers a penetrating or glancing hit from a ranged attack with the Melta special rule that is in half range or less it must re-roll successful Hull Saves against it.
Sniper If a vehicle suffers a penetrating or glancing hit from an attack with the Sniper special rule that rolls a 6 To Penetrate it may not take a Hull Save against it.
Thanks for looking!
Matt.Kingsley
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/22 05:43:20
As a guard player. I would love this. Though it does change the trade off between vehicles and monstrous creatures I run in my head.
A MC has a save, but any old Joe can hurt it on a 6 (usually). While a vehicle doesn't have a save, but (with the correct armor value) regular Joe can't even touch it.
2014/12/22 05:20:27
Subject: Re:Hull Saves - Armour Saves for Vehicles
It's gona be fun to see eldar vs eldar matchups. Cause even wave serpents can't hurt wave serpents now
But in general, it's not a bad addition. Will invalidate ap4 guns like autocannons, deff gunz, quad-guns and trakktors, however. They're gona emidiately become 3 times less effective against an average rhino or flyer. Cause will have to strip the first hp with something ap2-3.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/12/22 05:30:50
2014/12/22 06:22:51
Subject: Re:Hull Saves - Armour Saves for Vehicles
I just realised I forgot to Flyers when I was writing the OP... whoops. I had the additional rules (more like rule) for them written up but failed to copy it across.
Added now, it's basically the same rule as chariots have (max Hull Save of a 4+) because most Anti-Flyer weapons are AP 4, and Flyers are one of the few vehicles that don't need a survival increase...
@Krug001 It does change the trade off a bit, making it so the heaviest of vehicles require dedicated AT (though in most cases this was already true), light vehicles a little more tough against the regular Joe and Medium vehicles fold less to Autocannons and equivalent weapons (typically it'll take 3x as many shots to glance them to death).
It's still not completely balanced out since I don't have/know the anti-tank capabilities of all the races.
@koooaei Yeah it does hit AP4 guns, though that was the idea since they're more 'all rounder' weapons... Also, again, I forgot to put the rule I had for flyers in the OP because I'm an idiot
That being said, though, I'm thinking of making it so Hull Saves can only be taken against glancing hits, not penetrating. It makes more sense, to me anyway, in a 'fluffy' sense and will probably be more balanced. Autocannon equivalents will still have a harder time glancing vehicles to death but against AV 12 and less they have a chance to ignore that protection and have a chance to make other AP 4 guns have an easier time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/22 06:24:08
2014/12/22 06:27:42
Subject: Re:Hull Saves - Armour Saves for Vehicles
Why not just make it a 4+ save vs glancing hits if the weapon's ap ain't 1-2-3? Cause otherwise it feels a bit overcomplicated.
ap3 just for some love to Missile Launchers and Basilisks/Battlecannons as that's one of the reasons they're looked over. Can't explode. Now they'll at least be more reliable at hp stripping. Marines will hate it, however
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/12/22 06:30:52
Hmm, you're right I probably have over-complicated it...
How would you feel if I made it so 4+ vs glancing against non AP 1-3 attacks and attacks with certain special rules is the default and with Heavy/Open-Topped vehicles this is changed to a 3+/5+ respectively?
EDIT: Actually, scratch that about Heavy Vehicles, I just realised it would give Leman Russes a better Hull Save than a Land Raider... and that doesn't sit right with me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/22 06:53:30
Myself I think a vehicle armour save would probably best go like this.
4+ Save as a vehicle.
Improve save by 1 each for a tank, for being heavy or for being super heavy (so a potential 2+ if you are a heavy or super heavy tank).
Penalize save by 1 for being open-topped (so a 5+ for most open topped vehicles).
This would also make Missile Launchers and Autocannons AP values relevant against vehicles again, as the former is the bare minimum to harm a tank and the latter is the bare minimum to harm most vehicles, including flyers.
I've been wanting to play some games using the rules that non skimmers/flyers (aka stuff that can't jink) have a 4+ save and extra armor (the stun to shaken upgrade) makes it 3+. Would have no impact on true anti tank weapons such as melta, lascannon, plasma, railgun, krak missiles, etc, but would nerf the high strAP- weapons like serpent shields and tesla. Those weapons would still work fine vs skimmers who would lack an armor save and rely on jinking. Would also help things like AV10 or AV11 vehicles from getting glanced to death from pulse rifles, gauss, tesla, etc. Could maybe bring back explosions on 6+ to compensate as a 3+ armor transport would survive things like missile broadsides way better. Would also make railsides more useful.
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Jefffar wrote: Myself I think a vehicle armour save would probably best go like this.
4+ Save as a vehicle.
Improve save by 1 each for a tank, for being heavy or for being super heavy (so a potential 2+ if you are a heavy or super heavy tank).
Penalize save by 1 for being open-topped or skimmer (so a 5+ for most open topped vehicles).
This would also make Missile Launchers and Autocannons AP values relevant against vehicles again, as the former is the bare minimum to harm a tank and the latter is the bare minimum to harm most vehicles, including flyers.
This seems good.
One small addition, in red.
Oh da grand ol' Duke of Ork
'e 'ad ten fousand boyz.
'E marched 'em up to da top ov da hill
an den dey made some noise!
An wen dey woz up dey woz up!
An wen dey woz loud dey woz loud!
An wen dey woz both up an loud
dey made all da grots go deff!
But to get that jink save, they have to give up the ability to shoot blasts/templates and snapshot their other guns. I'm not totally opposed to the idea though. Being able to jink at all means you can get a cover save against weapons that would ignore the hull save of a non-skimmer. Of course, now you're reducing dark eldar vehicles to a 6+ hull save and thus missing an opportunity to alleviate their fragility versus bolters. If you don't care that bolters can rip up dark eldar vehicles, however, the suggested system seems like it ought to work pretty well.
It occurs to me, however, that these changes are specifically useful for nerfing xenos weapons like serpent shields and tesla and to a lesser extent missile pods. Imperial plasma won't take even the slightest nerf from these rules. I haven't run into plasma spam in my local store, but I hear it's a thing. If it's a thing, you're kind of just handing out buffs to marines while only nerfing what? The assault cannon and auto cannon?
That might be perfectly fine. I just wanted to raise the points. This seems like something that would need playtesting to get a better idea of how it would work out.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Well since the same nerf applies to eldar jetbikes as well feel free to; of course neither model according to the BRB is a vehicle, but you hopefully already knew that.
According to the OP, the aim is to prevent non anti-tank weapons from damaging vehicles, so why not simply decide which weapons are anti-tank, give all tanks a 4++ invulnerable, and give all anti-tank weapons a special rule that ignores that invulnerable.
Oh da grand ol' Duke of Ork
'e 'ad ten fousand boyz.
'E marched 'em up to da top ov da hill
an den dey made some noise!
An wen dey woz up dey woz up!
An wen dey woz loud dey woz loud!
An wen dey woz both up an loud
dey made all da grots go deff!
Quickjager wrote: Well since the same nerf applies to eldar jetbikes as well feel free to; of course neither model according to the BRB is a vehicle, but you hopefully already knew that.
Why does it have to be a vehicle? Is it so that only xenos are nerfed as that is generally your attitude.
All that you said was that it has a modifiable jink, which means a jink save that can be changed. White Scars do modify their jink save with a +1 to it, thereforethey need to get slower save.
Can Eldar jetbikes get a 3+ jink? No? Didn't think so, therefore t doesn't apply.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/04 11:00:54
2015/01/03 11:25:11
Subject: Re:Hull Saves - Armour Saves for Vehicles
Quickjager wrote: Well since the same nerf applies to eldar jetbikes as well feel free to; of course neither model according to the BRB is a vehicle, but you hopefully already knew that.
Why does it have to be a vehicle? Is it so that only xenos are merged as that is generally your attitude.
All that you said was that it has a modifiable jink, which means a jink save that can be changed. White Scars do modify their jink save with a +1 to it, thereforethey need to get slower save.
Can Eldar jetbikes get a 3+ jink? No? Didn't think so, therefore t doesn't apply.
Oh you didn't realize this thread was concerning vehicles? Sorry bout that, let me just point out the topic "Hull Saves - Armour Saves for Vehicles" Also Eldar bikes CAN get 3+ all they need is a quick spell, or stealth, hell DE can get a 3+, absolute statements are a hella of a thing aren't they? Anyway (jet)bikes aren't vehicles according to the rules sooooo... yea.
Yes I did realise, what I asked was why skimmers had to have a lower hull save when they aren't made of poorer material to non-skimmers; so why does their save need to be lower?
You gave the reason for their save being lower as 'they have a modifiable jink', so I replied with saying that if that's the case with vehicles; then it should be the case with all jinkng units that can modify their save.
Does the Eldar spell specifically improve jink? If so, then yes they should be included but if not... Then no.
Autocorrect. It was supposed to be nerfed (no idea how it became merged) as you are one of those guys who believes in IoM dominance just because you're the IoM.
2015/01/11 05:31:43
Subject: Re:Hull Saves - Armour Saves for Vehicles
I am sorry i do not like this. It already takes a lot to take down some vehicles. I feel the 7th ed rules is enough.
"Look upon me and know that I can slay you at will. You have no defence save one: to look into the darkness at the back of your own mind. There, you will find Father Nurgle waiting to offer you life in return for your submission. Deny him, and you are mine." — Typhus the Traveller, Herald of Nurgle
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ 
+ 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
