Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I'm assuming the best thing to do at this point is wait and hope until near the end that things will cleared up to a satisfying degree, but not to get too hopeful? Between the lack of clarity and the all-or-nothing nature of the kickstarter, it feels far too easy to lose so much on what could end up being so disappointing.

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Sounds reasonable, that's one big thing this kickstarter has going for it, all models complete and ready to go.

But they arent ready to go. The sculpts are designed for another medium, so you're going to need to convert them to 3d, account for shrinkage/detail loss, part them out, etc. There's still a ton of work to do.

The fact that they're answering questions on Discord through a questionable mouthpiece seems to me they want to circumvent what little accountability kickstarter has by not having the comments directly tied to the campaign.

Then how come reaper bones could cast their metal miniatures in another medium?

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Sounds reasonable, that's one big thing this kickstarter has going for it, all models complete and ready to go.

But they arent ready to go. The sculpts are designed for another medium, so you're going to need to convert them to 3d, account for shrinkage/detail loss, part them out, etc. There's still a ton of work to do.

The fact that they're answering questions on Discord through a questionable mouthpiece seems to me they want to circumvent what little accountability kickstarter has by not having the comments directly tied to the campaign.

Then how come reaper bones could cast their metal miniatures in another medium?

The bones I have compared to the metals have a reduced detail to them. It can be done, but you don’t get as nice of a modelasif it was still in metal. The larger models don’t lose as much detail as smaller models do (which is part of the material nature I guess), and is why people say it’s a better medium for larger more organic models.

When you combine these facts with the fact that they have the molds and keep saying that they can do this, the phrase “Put up or shut up” comes to mind. They need to put up pics of a sample or ten of the new models in the PVC compared to the old model size in metal to prove this can be done. Right now they are showing models in metal and saying this is what we are trying to get, but it might look different.

Of course it will lose detail in pvc, but a lot of people saying they must 3d scan their model and fix them to make any molds at all, maybe it aint so.

Thing is Reaper Bones is aimed at people doing DnD games or situations where they want models but where high quality isn't as important as a cheaper price. So the loss of some quality is a trade off in the material when you consider the super cheap cost; and Reaper is open about this. The idea of Bones is to be cheap but still decent quality.

And as said it also works a lot better on bigger models - which of course is great since bigger models are often very highly priced in other materials; so cutting down the price increases sales for Reaper and also lets people use a big dragon for their DnD game or similar without breaking their bank.




Confrontation though is still selling itself on high quality of the models, esp since all their marketing for this has been done with the original metal/resin/whatever models. So right up they are advertising a high grade of model quality for the product

Honestly they need a handful of side by side comparison photos comparing original to the new material and they should have LAUNCHED their KS with those photos. Even just one model made up in the new material.

It is possible to cast directly, but you need a good service provider and there are only a few of them arround.

But what bothers me is that they seem to have a lot of ideas and some quotes but not that much actual experience .

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Of course it will lose detail in pvc, but a lot of people saying they must 3d scan their model and fix them to make any molds at all, maybe it aint so.

They didn’t say that it was the ONLY way, but that was the way they would have to do it to get quality sculpts. Look at bones compared to HIPS models, Mantic plastics or other manufacturers plastics and you can see quality differences. Most people wanting this game back want it to have quality models not blobs of plastic with lack of real detail.

Limonata wrote:
@TurboCooler - Is it possible to elaborate more. Would not the molds for the PVC and ABS need metal molds, are you saying that these can be made via the masters? ---Masters are what's needed to make molds. Metal, plastic or resin. We don't need metal molds to make the plastic ones. - There is no rework that will be required? --- Maybe a bit but not that much. -For example, would not the plastic molds need deeper or bolder lines to compensate for the shrinking of the material which would be much more than metal? --- Not really no. As for Alkemy, the same masters were used to produce Plastic minis, the same in resin and even some metal samples. Not an issue at all.

How cow. It's like those Ice Age Miniatures guys were resurfacing again.

Thanks, Limonata and TurboCooler!

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Sounds reasonable, that's one big thing this kickstarter has going for it, all models complete and ready to go.

But they arent ready to go. The sculpts are designed for another medium, so you're going to need to convert them to 3d, account for shrinkage/detail loss, part them out, etc. There's still a ton of work to do.

The fact that they're answering questions on Discord through a questionable mouthpiece seems to me they want to circumvent what little accountability kickstarter has by not having the comments directly tied to the campaign.

Then how come reaper bones could cast their metal miniatures in another medium?

This is a post from Reaperbryan, who helps run their company, from 2013.

"I can believe that a mold *can* cost $250k. But I know that so far we have not had a mold cost over $45,000. I think our cheapest mold was right around $18,000.



There are so many factors that influence mold cost, including the size of the mold. Ours are fit for a 75 ton machine, but 25 ton, 50 ton, 100 ton, 150 ton, 200 ton and larger machines exist, each capable of holding molds only up to a given size. A 250 ton machine can use a 75 ton mold, but it can also hold a much larger mold than a 75 ton is capable of.



***more later."

So that's Reaper's cost for the mold- I'm not sure if that includes paying the artist to convert the mold over, or if it covers the whole process, but it should give you a ballpark figure, as I'd consider Reaper experts on going from metal molds to Bones style plastics. And this is after years and millions of dollars of production work- I'd think Reaper probably does it about as fast and cheap as it is possible to do it.

Would you like to know more?
http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/47575-plastic-injection-molds/

 Overread wrote:
Thing is Reaper Bones is aimed at people doing DnD games or situations where they want models but where high quality isn't as important as a cheaper price. So the loss of some quality is a trade off in the material when you consider the super cheap cost; and Reaper is open about this. The idea of Bones is to be cheap but still decent quality.

Yeah, that. I remember ReaperBryan saying that some of their customers rip off the blister and play the miniature on the table. Bones comes pre-assembled. That should give a big hint who (part of) their target audience are.

Two other differences between Reaper and SD. Reaper's been in the miniatures business for over 25 year, and I believe that was before their Bones KS.

Oh, and they showed PRODUCTION Bones miniatures during their KS campaign. Bones was their fastest growing retail product, but they still didn't have enough revenue to make as many steel molds as they wanted. So they turned to KS.

That's why I'll drop the most money on a KS project on a Reaper project. It's not the IP that's drawing me in, it's the company. I've already learned that, just because a company has an IP you want, doesn't mean you'll get anything else you want.

The fact that they're saying that the same molds can be used for metal and PVC, with no concerns at all about material differences, shrinkage, etc is the reddest of red flags to date.

Quality of miniatures - if any get delivered at all - will be disappointing. Very disappointing.

 Theophony wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Of course it will lose detail in pvc, but a lot of people saying they must 3d scan their model and fix them to make any molds at all, maybe it aint so.

They didn’t say that it was the ONLY way, but that was the way they would have to do it to get quality sculpts. Look at bones compared to HIPS models, Mantic plastics or other manufacturers plastics and you can see quality differences. Most people wanting this game back want it to have quality models not blobs of plastic with lack of real detail.

When I asked before in the thread "how are molds made to be used with pvc" I get a lengthy description in which step 1 was "1.create digital file."
Sorry for believing people

Well... dang.

The eight-miniature SG was reached, then pledges dropped to $1. 20 EBs left for anyone who's up for the risk!

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:

 Theophony wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Of course it will lose detail in pvc, but a lot of people saying they must 3d scan their model and fix them to make any molds at all, maybe it aint so.

They didn’t say that it was the ONLY way, but that was the way they would have to do it to get quality sculpts. Look at bones compared to HIPS models, Mantic plastics or other manufacturers plastics and you can see quality differences. Most people wanting this game back want it to have quality models not blobs of plastic with lack of real detail.

When I asked before in the thread "how are molds made to be used with pvc" I get a lengthy description in which step 1 was "1.create digital file."
Sorry for believing people

You asked how PVC molds are made, not what every possible way of making PVC molds are, no? I don't recall anyone claiming this was the only way to do it, simply a possible approach if you'd want good quality miniatures.
Could also make molds out of sand, for that matter, the result just wouldn't be very good.

I don't want to derail the thread any more so please continue with a productive conversation.

Limonata wrote:
The latest reply from Discord

Confrontation Universe
@TurboCooler - Is it possible to elaborate more. Would not the molds for the PVC and ABS need metal molds, are you saying that these can be made via the masters? ---Masters are what's needed to make molds. Metal, plastic or resin. We don't need metal molds to make the plastic ones. - There is no rework that will be required? --- Maybe a bit but not that much. -For example, would not the plastic molds need deeper or bolder lines to compensate for the shrinking of the material which would be much more than metal? --- Not really no. As for Alkemy, the same masters were used to produce Plastic minis, the same in resin and even some metal samples. Not an issue at all.



¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Like I said, making miniatures is not my expertise. I have read a lot on this forum and other miniature forums. I did not realize you could use the same master mold for metal, plastic and resin. I guess, if this was all true, why was SOOO difficult to give backers this information??? Many in the comments had to pull teeth? At this point, I am out because I have no idea who is credible or what to believe anymore. I am not even sure if the question a poster asked and what was answered where talking about the same thing LOL!.

And, because I have forgotten to say so, thank you for those whom have replied. Much appreciated.

I will have have to ask my friends if they have any Alkemy figures so I can examine them.

WHY is this in Discord and not, like... the kickstarter page? Are they shady or just incompetent?

They are both shady and incompetent. The insist they have nothing to do with Ludik, despite sharing a physical address and owner. They deputized people in the KS who tell people they aren't real fans. The set up a Discord and to have some questions answered there and not transfer over to the KS page. They show masters and metals all over the place while they will be casting PVC and insisting they will be identical.

I have no idea why they even like Confrontation at this point. The big reason Rackham was able to sell so many models was because they were so detailed and well done. This project just goes against the whole idea of highly detailed and high quality, which was Confrontation's place in the market. They don't even talk about the actual game played with the minis - which is another red flag.

Agreed!

I wish someone had else had acquired the licence who was realistic about how to 'bring Confrontation back'.

Either with metals or resin.

Smaller scale?

Sure!

But the quality would have been there...

This feels like it will most likely fail (either to deliver, or to deliver quality up to the name/expectation for Confrontation) and it will kill it for good.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
They don't even talk about the actual game played with the minis - which is another red flag.

Wasn't this supposed to be a purely miniature based KS?

 His Master's Voice wrote:

HaleysRedComet wrote:
They don't even talk about the actual game played with the minis - which is another red flag.

Wasn't this supposed to be a purely miniature based KS?

They provide a play mat and terrain. They also said they are providing cards and talk about how the pledge box can be used to play games. Much of what they are saying involves talking about being able to play Confrontation.

Which you can do if you have the rules from any of the previous incarnations of the game.

There's plenty that's wrong with this KS, let's not add things that were never promised to the list of grievances.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Which you can do if you have the rules from any of the previous incarnations of the game.

There's plenty that's wrong with this KS, let's not add things that were never promised to the list of grievances.

They talk about using these minis for the game right down to how they were selected:

HOW WERE THE 16 SELECTIONS FOR CONFRONTATION CLASSIC MADE?
These starting selections had to fulfill multiple objectives, starting with the fun of discovery and great playability. What we’ve also taken into consideration:
• The best esthetic choices and visual style representative of the faction.
• The variety of gameplay unique to each faction, as each one has advantages which should be used as much as possible during skirmishes.
• The vote of the fans of the Facebook page to the Confrontation Hall of Fame. Their choices have often reinforced our own choices, and in other cases helped us come to a decision.
• The balance of the factions against each other, so that they could face one another in any game combination, meaning exactly 200 duel possibilities! (Approx. 400 points for experienced players).
Finally, each miniature will be playable with the rules for Confrontation Resurrection, coming in 2019!

This is from the FAQ. A header from the FAQ is "When will I receive my game?", another says that they will include a core rulebook.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to call this more than just a minis KS, based on what Sans Detour is putting forward.

It's confrontation classic with the rules from confrontation 3.5 they still have the rules to download on the site.

You supposedly get “quick start” physical rules, but the full rulebook will have to be downloaded.

Giving a few insights : alkemy used to produce miniatures in pvc and abs in china. Quality was very good. I can post a picture if you like, i have some at home. Only annoying stuff was that you had to use super glue.

I assume they will use the same producer - i used to be in contact with the guy a few years ago (half french half chinese based in schentzen if i remember well). It was relatively cheap - i got a quote for a project , Must be somewhere in m’y gmail.

Why do i say these things ? Well because i think people tend to be overly negative on this project - at least, regarding the feasability. Marketing seems poor to me (a bit like sovietic era : one product fits all) but i dont doubt the miniatures will be of good quality.

You don't?

I still do.

And, if it is cheap and good quality, it REALLY would have been a good idea to do this already for a few miniatures - a really small one (goblin?) and a larger one (Troll?) to show how great and achievable it is.

Would've paid them back probably many times over by now via a higher pledge total that would NOT be dropping out of the campaign eventually.

 Lemure wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:

 Theophony wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Of course it will lose detail in pvc, but a lot of people saying they must 3d scan their model and fix them to make any molds at all, maybe it aint so.

They didn’t say that it was the ONLY way, but that was the way they would have to do it to get quality sculpts. Look at bones compared to HIPS models, Mantic plastics or other manufacturers plastics and you can see quality differences. Most people wanting this game back want it to have quality models not blobs of plastic with lack of real detail.

When I asked before in the thread "how are molds made to be used with pvc" I get a lengthy description in which step 1 was "1.create digital file."
Sorry for believing people

You asked how PVC molds are made, not what every possible way of making PVC molds are, no? I don't recall anyone claiming this was the only way to do it, simply a possible approach if you'd want good quality miniatures.
Could also make molds out of sand, for that matter, the result just wouldn't be very good.

If i may.


PVC is a bit of a catch all term when it comes to casting.
it;s not really a material, more a whole bunch of different materials that share the same basic make up.

Now , with regards to miniature casting there are two main ways you can go.

The first, which is cheapest but also the most labour intensive, is to use a resin PVC mix, this is essnetially a two part plastic that pours and sets like a resin but will cure with the properties of PVC. there are a few different types, some are just resin with PVC suspended in the mix, others are pure two part plastics.
casting this type of pvc uses a standard silicone or rubber mould. as such it's the cheapest way to recreate something in metal into PVC, but it also needs more experience as you have to account for slippage, shrinkage, mould failure, catalyst failure and all the other hazards that come with resin casting. a good mould maker could recast something this way and the PVC cast would have detail loss no different to the levels of loss found in high quality recasting.you also have more wiggle room when it comes to undercuts, as the mould itself can be flexed to remove any parts of the figure that would otherwise be stuck once set.

the second is industrial pvc casting. This is the kind used to make board game pieces and other pvc figures, in which PVC is pumped into a metal mould in an automated process. this has the advantage of negating the risk of slippage/miscasting, of giving uniform casts and a high turnover. But the material is closer to rubber and due to the need to machine the mould , you risk loosing more detail .
Making the mould in this case involves either using a pantograph and a pointing machine to guide a router head , direct from the object being cast, or using a digital file and an automatic router. Either way, you need someone that can break the model up to avoid undercuts and stress points, as there is no room for these things in a solid mould.

Now, can you cast HIPS in the second kind of mould? ehhhh yes.. but you shoudln't. The mould will be graded for certain temperatures and pressures, and the two materials have different qualities, flow rates and curing times that mean the process for casting one will need replacing entirely for another, you can't simply switch between the two.


(I know some people get a little confused at the term undercut. The best way to thing of it is like this. You know those stories you read of parents that let their kids dunk their hands in wet plaster, and then when it sets they can't get it out? that's an undercut. it's a form that due to its shape cannot be removed when enclosed by another material. that's why something made in a flexible mould can't simply be machined into steel, because very often the model will have elements that,when filled into a steel mould, make it impossible to remove.)

Well to have a proxy, here is a video of unpainted alkemy miniatures - it will most likely be the same plastic

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GmKMX0hHKXc

captain tanuki wrote:
Why do i say these things ? Well because i think people tend to be overly negative on this project - at least, regarding the feasability. Marketing seems poor to me (a bit like sovietic era : one product fits all) but i dont doubt the miniatures will be of good quality.

Mysterio wrote:

And, if it is cheap and good quality, it REALLY would have been a good idea to do this already for a few miniatures - a really small one (goblin?) and a larger one (Troll?) to show how great and achievable it is.

Would've paid them back probably many times over by now via a higher pledge total that would NOT be dropping out of the campaign eventually.

Tanuki this is the problem, especially when you then add to it the fact that many in the industry have said that the casting costs for this number of models is far higher than the potential funding goal. Thing is if this company didn't have the Confruntation name it wouldn't have funded by now or if it did it would have funded low as they've not actually got a single model produced to show the actual product quality. They've a lot of old-production models photographed which I think got people in fast, but now that everyone is starting to talk about what will actually be produced there's a huge silence and lack of real evidence that the models to be produced will achieve the quality promised.
If they had one model produced via this method to show before and after then it would have eased all these concerns in a huge way. Which suggests that either they've got no money to invest into producing a test model (which is a MAJOR worry when you consider that they plan to relaunch the game with new casts yet again next year); or that when they did produce one the quality was a lot less than ideal when compared to the original.

It just seems a really poor way to run a KS and when companies dodge questions or don't have answers like this then it sets off alarmbells. Better run better organised KS have failed in the past

And it looks as if the questions and concerns are starting to take their toll: