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Those geenstealers will see your 4 FCs and simply charge you from over 8" away. Bang goes your 100pt investment.

bort wrote:
Side note:
My understanding is you can't DS a killteam with a bike in it due to the Bike keyword.

By Raw:
For purpose of transport (...) Bikers do not have infrantry keyword.

So in other cases they are treated as infrantry so they can use ds stratagem

Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!

2000 points - double battalion

Watch master
Watch master
Librarian
Librarian
9 Squads of 9 intercessors

Well, what sort of lists are you up against, DoomMouse?

I’m running with a similar theme, but doubling down even further. 3 Battalions!

Chaplain Dreadnought
Watch Master
3 Primaris Watch Captains
Primaris Librarian
9x 5-man intercessor squads
Sprinkled hellblasters/aggressors/inceptors to taste

I was more theory crafting tbh. It's be fun if a bunch of marines with bolters would be halfway viable. Can't run this at the moment as I only have one intercessor

Do you not think that the HQs are a bit pricey, badablack? If I could, I'd probably run about 10 kill teams with a couple of watch masters and leave it at that for HQs

I think spamming intercessors with a sprinkling of aggressors and inceptors could work against some lists, in a semi-competitive sort of way.

The firepower SAI can dish out is quite scary, and although intercessors are susceptible to D2 damage, spamming them helps mitigate that because most armies only have so much D2 shots. Of course you will run into the rare army that only has D2 and get destroyed, lol.

I think it might also be possible to go with a DW + RG sort of mixed army, with some elements gaining from the SFTS and -1 to hit, and others from the SAI.

Generally, though, I think a more mixed approach would be best, and allies even better.

Lemondish wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Intercessors are fine for screening. The requirement to always have 3 scout squads out front to soak deep strikers is largely gone with the beta reserves rules.

That isn't to say that an IG battalion would be a bad choice, but it's not a "must have".

I personally disagree from experience. The deep strike units that really pose a threat to Primaris are drop plasma. If you don't have the forces available to zone out and push them outside of rapidfire range, they do a lot of harm to your 20+ ppm Intercessor units who don't have easy access to invulns. Likewise, taking mortal wounds from smite (not even smite armies, just a couple of Farseers for example) is better done by a guardsman rather than anything more expensive. These are the biggest weaknesses to going pure DW and they may be able to be overcome with luck and positioning without bringing in allies, but I've found a battalion of cheap crap plugs those weaknesses very quickly. In friendly games, it's not a must have, but I imagine you'll find most forces that include DW on the tournament scene will include that plug and play Guard battalion to plug those holes.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

By their stats and the weapons on LR is not bad tbh. It is just their points being waaaaayyyy tooooooo overcosted. Both the droppod and the Landraider

I could see it being worth its price if it had ways around the two biggest issues of Astartes Land Raiders: being silenced by melee touching it, and not benefiting from your mission/chapter/whatever tactics.

Without those, the LR needs bubblewrap to protect it from being rendered useless by a wave serpent flying into it, so it becomes a mess of a unit - it's supposed to be a transport that wants to get close to the enemy to deliver its passengers, but you don't want it to get close since it'll just get tied up and silenced. Sure, it's super durable, but that amounts to nothing whatsoever when its transport job is d
one for a fraction of the price and the damage is so easily rendered useless.

It makes me real sad that the entirety of the tactics section in dakka could honestly be replaced with "bring a battalion of IG."

Danny slag wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Intercessors are fine for screening. The requirement to always have 3 scout squads out front to soak deep strikers is largely gone with the beta reserves rules.

That isn't to say that an IG battalion would be a bad choice, but it's not a "must have".

I personally disagree from experience. The deep strike units that really pose a threat to Primaris are drop plasma. If you don't have the forces available to zone out and push them outside of rapidfire range, they do a lot of harm to your 20+ ppm Intercessor units who don't have easy access to invulns. Likewise, taking mortal wounds from smite (not even smite armies, just a couple of Farseers for example) is better done by a guardsman rather than anything more expensive. These are the biggest weaknesses to going pure DW and they may be able to be overcome with luck and positioning without bringing in allies, but I've found a battalion of cheap crap plugs those weaknesses very quickly. In friendly games, it's not a must have, but I imagine you'll find most forces that include DW on the tournament scene will include that plug and play Guard battalion to plug those holes.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

By their stats and the weapons on LR is not bad tbh. It is just their points being waaaaayyyy tooooooo overcosted. Both the droppod and the Landraider

I could see it being worth its price if it had ways around the two biggest issues of Astartes Land Raiders: being silenced by melee touching it, and not benefiting from your mission/chapter/whatever tactics.

Without those, the LR needs bubblewrap to protect it from being rendered useless by a wave serpent flying into it, so it becomes a mess of a unit - it's supposed to be a transport that wants to get close to the enemy to deliver its passengers, but you don't want it to get close since it'll just get tied up and silenced. Sure, it's super durable, but that amounts to nothing whatsoever when its transport job is d
one for a fraction of the price and the damage is so easily rendered useless.

It makes me real sad that the entirety of the tactics section in dakka could honestly be replaced with "bring a battalion of IG."

It is definitely a current issue. We should probably all email GW about it, lol. It's too good and not super fun for the game IMO.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!

2000 points - double battalion

Watch master
Watch master
Librarian
Librarian
9 Squads of 9 intercessors

I'd be mixing and mashing numbers to get one unit of Intercessors with an Aggressor and that would be the heavy weapon unit of Stalker Bolt Rifles.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!

2000 points - double battalion

Watch master
Watch master
Librarian
Librarian
9 Squads of 9 intercessors

I'd be mixing and mashing numbers to get one unit of Intercessors with an Aggressor and that would be the heavy weapon unit of Stalker Bolt Rifles.

The Stalker variant is horrible as it gets very limited use from the different ammo.

If you want something to camp, the Stalker variant for the regular Vets has two shots with AP-1. They're basically Intercessors with less durability but more threat range if that makes sense.

 DoomMouse wrote:
I was more theory crafting tbh. It's be fun if a bunch of marines with bolters would be halfway viable. Can't run this at the moment as I only have one intercessor

Do you not think that the HQs are a bit pricey, badablack? If I could, I'd probably run about 10 kill teams with a couple of watch masters and leave it at that for HQs

Watch Captains are relatively pricey but they’re 5 power sword attacks. With 3 you have glorious intervention coverage plus overwatch buffs everywhere you might need it. I wouldn’t take more than 1 Watch Master though, he costs a lot more for not much extra over Captains. 6 HQs is mostly about filling out the requirements, though I feel like 18cp is worth it. The IG Battalion can do it too, but those are bodies that won’t really do anything but fill a list. They aren’t hurting anything, they’re just eating all the anti-infantry guns that would have been doing much less to the Primaris.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!

2000 points - double battalion

Watch master
Watch master
Librarian
Librarian
9 Squads of 9 intercessors

I'd be mixing and mashing numbers to get one unit of Intercessors with an Aggressor and that would be the heavy weapon unit of Stalker Bolt Rifles.

The Stalker variant is horrible as it gets very limited use from the different ammo.

If you want something to camp, the Stalker variant for the regular Vets has two shots with AP-1. They're basically Intercessors with less durability but more threat range if that makes sense.

I wonder if massed stalker bolter vets might actually be decent for a gun-liney DW army. Being far away and in cover gives the vets some durability, and their firepower is actually quite scary with a watch master around.

They are not as good as storm bolter vets inside 12", but if they last longer and are always in cover, that might be okay?

24" vengeance rounds is actually pretty terrifying, and 36" kraken isn't bad either.

Supplement them with other units that seem like better targets, and i could see them doing some work.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!

2000 points - double battalion

Watch master
Watch master
Librarian
Librarian
9 Squads of 9 intercessors

I'd be mixing and mashing numbers to get one unit of Intercessors with an Aggressor and that would be the heavy weapon unit of Stalker Bolt Rifles.

The Stalker variant is horrible as it gets very limited use from the different ammo.

If you want something to camp, the Stalker variant for the regular Vets has two shots with AP-1. They're basically Intercessors with less durability but more threat range if that makes sense.

If it gets you an marine I'd probably be easy pleased but can you put an Aggressor in with the Vets to negate the Heavy Weapon mobility deductions?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!

2000 points - double battalion

Watch master
Watch master
Librarian
Librarian
9 Squads of 9 intercessors

I'd be mixing and mashing numbers to get one unit of Intercessors with an Aggressor and that would be the heavy weapon unit of Stalker Bolt Rifles.

The Stalker variant is horrible as it gets very limited use from the different ammo.

If you want something to camp, the Stalker variant for the regular Vets has two shots with AP-1. They're basically Intercessors with less durability but more threat range if that makes sense.

If it gets you an marine I'd probably be easy pleased but can you put an Aggressor in with the Vets to negate the Heavy Weapon mobility deductions?

No, but do I really want to pay 37 points to make 5 shots slightly more accurate?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!

2000 points - double battalion

Watch master
Watch master
Librarian
Librarian
9 Squads of 9 intercessors

I'd be mixing and mashing numbers to get one unit of Intercessors with an Aggressor and that would be the heavy weapon unit of Stalker Bolt Rifles.

The Stalker variant is horrible as it gets very limited use from the different ammo.

If you want something to camp, the Stalker variant for the regular Vets has two shots with AP-1. They're basically Intercessors with less durability but more threat range if that makes sense.

If it gets you an marine I'd probably be easy pleased but can you put an Aggressor in with the Vets to negate the Heavy Weapon mobility deductions?

No, but do I really want to pay 37 points to make 5 shots slightly more accurate?

Don't be forgetting that wonderful overwatch and an actual melee capable model.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!

2000 points - double battalion

Watch master
Watch master
Librarian
Librarian
9 Squads of 9 intercessors

I'd be mixing and mashing numbers to get one unit of Intercessors with an Aggressor and that would be the heavy weapon unit of Stalker Bolt Rifles.

The Stalker variant is horrible as it gets very limited use from the different ammo.

If you want something to camp, the Stalker variant for the regular Vets has two shots with AP-1. They're basically Intercessors with less durability but more threat range if that makes sense.

If it gets you an marine I'd probably be easy pleased but can you put an Aggressor in with the Vets to negate the Heavy Weapon mobility deductions?

No, but do I really want to pay 37 points to make 5 shots slightly more accurate?

Don't be forgetting that wonderful overwatch and an actual melee capable model.

I think it's less about the effectiveness of aggressors in general than the lack there of of stalker bolt rifles. I think it's pretty clear that the assault intercessors go better with aggressors than the heavy.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!

2000 points - double battalion

Watch master
Watch master
Librarian
Librarian
9 Squads of 9 intercessors

I'd be mixing and mashing numbers to get one unit of Intercessors with an Aggressor and that would be the heavy weapon unit of Stalker Bolt Rifles.

The Stalker variant is horrible as it gets very limited use from the different ammo.

If you want something to camp, the Stalker variant for the regular Vets has two shots with AP-1. They're basically Intercessors with less durability but more threat range if that makes sense.

If it gets you an marine I'd probably be easy pleased but can you put an Aggressor in with the Vets to negate the Heavy Weapon mobility deductions?

No, but do I really want to pay 37 points to make 5 shots slightly more accurate?

Don't be forgetting that wonderful overwatch and an actual melee capable model.

For a squad that's going to be standing back and when it falls back won't be able to shoot with those expensive guns you paid for.

The Primaris Stalkers are just bad, dude.

So, building and painting my Deathwatch vets, there are a few questions that popped up in the mass of neurons that lives in my cranium...

First, now that the primarusses have landed, are the good old veterans still viable?

Second, when you build a kill team, vets or primaris, do you go for generalist squads, i.e. mostly bolters but with a sprinkling of close combat and heavy weapons, or do you build one or two specialist kill teams that will have specific battlefield roles? I'm thinking something like a squad with a lot of thunder hammers, transported in a blackstar, delivered close to the Big Thing that the opponent has to pummel it to bits....

Thoughts?

 ChaosDad wrote:
So, building and painting my Deathwatch vets, there are a few questions that popped up in the mass of neurons that lives in my cranium...

First, now that the primarusses have landed, are the good old veterans still viable?

Second, when you build a kill team, vets or primaris, do you go for generalist squads, i.e. mostly bolters but with a sprinkling of close combat and heavy weapons, or do you build one or two specialist kill teams that will have specific battlefield roles? I'm thinking something like a squad with a lot of thunder hammers, transported in a blackstar, delivered close to the Big Thing that the opponent has to pummel it to bits....

Thoughts?

I find Veterans still extremely viable. Depending on their build, they have access to cheaper transports, invulns, and have better damage than Primaris. Mine are mostly just saturated SIA using storm bolters, a couple storm shields, a couple frag cannons, and chainswords all over the place.

Lemondish wrote:


I find Veterans still extremely viable. Depending on their build, they have access to cheaper transports, invulns, and have better damage than Primaris. Mine are mostly just saturated SIA using storm bolters, a couple storm shields, a couple frag cannons, and chainswords all over the place.

Yeah... the Special Issue Ammo seems to be the best tool for them doesn't it? I quite like the shotguns too...

But I guess i'll have to raid the bits stores to get me some storm bolters...

I currently have a lot of Vets with all kinds of special equipment (by my last count I was up to 3500 points...), but with the bits left in my bits box I want to put together some "basic boys", the storm bolter / chainsword kind of basic so I can run some "barebones" kill teams...

The project I'm slowly building toward is a full watch station's worth of dudes. I have my four captains, now I need to flesh out my 12-16 kill teams... It might take a while...

I had been "sitting on" a mess of the Deathwatch stuff since it hit plastic so now with this release I am getting more serious.

I have started with:

Intercessor Squad:
- Intercessors x5 with Assault (should I really add the grenade launcher?)
- Hellblasters x3 with Assault.
- Inceptor x1 with Assault Bolters. (Fall back and shoot is nice).
- Aggressor x1 with Flamestorm Gauntlets (These guys get a wee bit closer after all, advance move with no penalty is nice)

Veteran Squad:
- Sgt x1 Storm Bolter and Chainsword.
- Veterans x3 Storm Bolter and Chainsword.
- 1 Veteran and Frag Cannon.
- Razorback TAC

My Plans:

Plan on getting my 2 Blackstars together:
- One as vehicle / aircraft hunter
- One as anti-personnel (bombing will be fun).

Intercessor Squad:
- Intercessors x5 with Rapid Fire (should I really add the grenade launcher?) Tempted to go with Stalker for the added range BUT special ammunition AP is maxed out. It makes the Aggressor less of a "tax" this way.
- Hellblasters x4 Heavy.
- Aggressor x1 with Boltstorm Gauntlets. Nice to move with no penalty for heavy weapons. Do not need flamers, if I need them, I am playing wrong, which is also why an Inceptor is pointless.

I have to pick some HQ I know, that can wait since I have those guys together.
I have the Watch Master, Artemis as army specific models.

Some thoughts:

- I have three bikes together that might be fun. Mandatory to outfit them with power weapons?
- I was thinking of having a Veteran squad teleport in which will have a Terminator with them, possibly a Vanguard in it as well.
- Getting Veteran squad with a couple Combi-Flamers for up close work or Stalker boltguns for the other direction (Termi with missiles and use the SB). Ride around in 2xSB Rhino (but then no Terminator).
- Or I could go to a slightly smaller squad and use the Razorback with the TLC for a bit more heavy vehicle/creature punch.
- Thinking another squad like the first Intercessor squad is the way to go.

I will have to think of what to shoot for to get a few more command points in.

The real issue with this army is: it will struggle with facing vehicles hence why some Hellblasters needed to be in there.

Any suggestions on where to go from here?

T7 vehicles go down *hard* to massed SIA with Malleus doctrine.

For example a 5-man team with storm bolters set for vengeance, jumping out a blackstar with their Watchmaster for rerolls, do an expected 6 damage (7 with the right mission) to a predator. That's very good.

T8 is the main nut to crack imo, and needs dedicated AT to deal with it. But hey, you can leave T7 and below to your basic boys, if you have CP in the bank, freeing your AT to go Russ hunting...

 grouchoben wrote:
T7 vehicles go down *hard* to massed SIA with Malleus doctrine.

For example a 5-man team with storm bolters, dropping in with their Watchmaster for rerolls, do an expected 6 damage (7 with the right mission) to a predator. That's very good.

T8 is the main nut to crack imo, and needs dedicated AT to deal with it. But hey, you can leave T7 and below to your basic boys, if you have CP in the bank, freeing your AT to go Russ hunting...

Let's see...

20 shots, hitting on 3s rerolling is 160/9 hits. Wounding on 4s is 80/9, with a 5+ save (from Vengeance rounds) is 160/27, or...

5.93 on average.

Now, you ask, what are the odds of one-rounding a Rhino? Let's find out!

1.56%. So not likely to KILL it.

How many Vets with Storm Bolters do we need to one-round it with a 50% chance or greater?

Eight Vets gives us about a 1/3 chance.
Nine gives us a just over 50% chance.
A full ten gives us a whopping 2/3 chance, close to.

Or: you need 3,375 shots to strip off 1 wound from T7 3+. Only rerolls from watchmaster and +1 to wound rolls from gem
So 33,75 shots to kill rhino.
10 vets can kill rhino under watchmaster bubble.

DW FAW is up

Nothing crazy. Clarification on the Intercessor grenade launcher, Infernum halo-launcher rules, and how Dragonfire Bolts remain completely useless.

No answer on other, really pressing things sadly.

Actually a couple of notable things in there, two of which I emailed them about.

Chaplains and librarians can have storm bolters (and combi weapons) without relying on the index. Didn't really answer my question but the changed the rules so that it doesn't matter.

They confirmed that you can't do the double swap to get relic blades with other guns.( A bit stupid but at least it's answered).

So, anyone give any thoughts on an "all-comers" list of about 2000 pts?
Got to play with Battlescribe and see what formations to shoot for.

I keep hearing about "jumping" out of a Blackstar, would you not have to go to that hover mode and it becomes easier to blast out of the sky? (by one mind, but everything helps or hurts).

I find the biggest issue is a bit like Grey Knights: the points add up in a hurry.
These guys are pretty much defined by their special ammo so i am trying to leverage that all I can.
The storm bolters on troops is the godsend to try to get a fair bit of that out.
Even a 5 man squad shooting some 10 shots at 24" or 20 shots at 12" is nothing to sneeze at (nevermind what ammo you choose at the time).

Any thoughts on how to pretty-up the storm bolters so they look like they have an ammo selector on them?
I suppose I can glue on those little sets of 2 rectangles.

 GCS-5 wrote:
Frag cannons are way too good for 25 points. I'm calling a points increase by September or Chapter Approved. Take 4 of them in a squad. with 8D6 S6 -1 1D shots with +1 to wound (strat) and reroll 1 (mission tactic), that scary genestealer mob would not dare charge you.

Or, you can have 8 S9 -3 2D shots with the same +1 to wound (strat) and reroll 1 (mission tactic). You're wounding T8 on 2 rerolling, whats not to love.I was considering trying this for a major ITC event in my region. I had two practice games with an earlier version of the list with great success vs nids and chaos (who were both testing their event lists).

Is it any different than S9 -3 D6D shots from four times the range? Yes, you can deep strike frag cannons to get them in kill range, but then you blast one tank and get shot off the board. Frag cannons are one of my favorite weapons but as far as effectiveness goes, you'll get more mileage out of a raven guard devastator squad for less points.

On a note about AV, I ran into a T8 Dreadnought (Might of Heroes) yesterday. It was a casual game, but I really could do nothing about that thing. 3 Frag cannons did some good damage but not enough to kill. Melta sucked because wounding on 4s. I didn't have rerolls at all, and I didn't use my +1 to wound stratagem, which would have helped, and my squad died immediately after.

So: How many frag cannons do you need to kill a T8 model? Do you need to use the stratagem every time? What's the best anti-tank in DW for T8?

 SputnikDX wrote:

 GCS-5 wrote:
Frag cannons are way too good for 25 points. I'm calling a points increase by September or Chapter Approved. Take 4 of them in a squad. with 8D6 S6 -1 1D shots with +1 to wound (strat) and reroll 1 (mission tactic), that scary genestealer mob would not dare charge you.

Or, you can have 8 S9 -3 2D shots with the same +1 to wound (strat) and reroll 1 (mission tactic). You're wounding T8 on 2 rerolling, whats not to love.I was considering trying this for a major ITC event in my region. I had two practice games with an earlier version of the list with great success vs nids and chaos (who were both testing their event lists).

Is it any different than S9 -3 D6D shots from four times the range? Yes, you can deep strike frag cannons to get them in kill range, but then you blast one tank and get shot off the board. Frag cannons are one of my favorite weapons but as far as effectiveness goes, you'll get more mileage out of a raven guard devastator squad for less points.

On a note about AV, I ran into a T8 Dreadnought (Might of Heroes) yesterday. It was a casual game, but I really could do nothing about that thing. 3 Frag cannons did some good damage but not enough to kill. Melta sucked because wounding on 4s. I didn't have rerolls at all, and I didn't use my +1 to wound stratagem, which would have helped, and my squad died immediately after.

So: How many frag cannons do you need to kill a T8 model? Do you need to use the stratagem every time? What's the best anti-tank in DW for T8?

Well within 12inches you are a damage 2 lascannon so you really shouldn't have an issue taking out t8. I'd think 4 frag cannons would do the job with no buffs and 3 if you had buffs. Hell if you are buffed two could do it.