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I had a thought while reading threads about GW's behavior/decisionmaking that the only real way of forcing change in this company from our position is to buy shares - we are always complaining about the jumping through hoops to please them so lets become shareholders ourselves!

We clearly have the capacity for large purchases and a year of spending that money on shares instead of models might actually start a change in the company;

all we have to do is wait for a terrible sales report making the shares dip in price to maximise our input and then afterwards we have a say in the boardroom!

I'm up for it - i've never owned shares in a company before!

They do pay good dividends to be fair. But you'll be buying a LOT of shares before you have enough clout to propose any changes

Good luck with affecting change by buying some shares.

The only way to make them change is to STOP GIVING THEM MONEY.

GW PLC has 31.970.000 shares outstanding.
Buying even 1% of this = 319.700 shares.
Each share costs 515 pence(?).

Total cost of buying 1% of the shares = 164.645,5 GBP

We also as a collective have enough money to buy the damn company, if bankrupt ourselves. Even if every person on Dakka put $750 into the pot, we would have $70,707,000. I do believe that's more than the value of GW.

Just ignore them and they'll go away.

Agree with above.

Stop giving in to nostalgia and stop buying GW stuff, even if they put out something you like or want.

Remember that the only time GW, or any corporation, will take notice and change is when there is a change of leadership, or their bottom line is affected. Usually the bottom line is also a cause for change. However, because of GW's corporate structure, that' won't happen. So, the only way is to affect their bottom line.

Vote with your wallet. GW knows most people won't, so if things get a little low, they just pop out something ridiculous or remake something old and people will engorge themselves on it.

Don't be that person if you are unhappy with things as they are.

Yeah, the only way they will learn is if sales keep decreasing, but there's always those diehards who are like "omg new knights can't wait!!!!" or "Take my money for X" that keep reinforcing the idea that what GW is doing is actually working.

 Verviedi wrote:
We also as a collective have enough money to buy the damn company, if bankrupt ourselves. Even if every person on Dakka put $750 into the pot, we would have $70,707,000. I do believe that's more than the value of GW.

Sorry chap, you're wrong.

Market Cap (values of shares) for GAW is £164M (or whatever that its in your foreign money of choice). That would rise if you were able to buy chunks of shares and once you were in a position to force a buyout offer the price would rise again.

Do like I did. Sell all your GW stuff and jump into flames of war! !
At least in that game snipers do something!!

You can't make GW change. Despite their continual slide towards irrelevancy in the industry, they continue to pursue the same strategies, continue to put out an accelerated rate of low effort, high price products in an attempt to stop the decline in their profits, continue to treat their customer base with practically open contempt.

The only thing you can do is stop buying, and let them get on with their self-destruction. There are so many other games out there that are better value and quality, after all.

Just don't buy anything. Better than buying shares. Cheaper too.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Yeah, the only way they will learn is if sales keep decreasing, but there's always those diehards who are like "omg new knights can't wait!!!!" or "Take my money for X" that keep reinforcing the idea that what GW is doing is actually working.

Or, I know this will totally sound crazy, but those people like the model and want one. Hence, they buy it without a care in the world because their main focus is having cool little plastic men (and mechs! and tanks! and Robots! AND CYBORG NINJAS!)

That's fine. However, this discussion was about GW games, and how the unreasonable gamer purchases are keeping GW afloat when it really shouldn't.

Your forum is the modeling forum, where you can buy and model anything you like, whether it's 40k or Gundam.

So not sure why you even bothered posting, because you're not part of the problem, or even involved in the problem.

Nay! There is no such thing as free will! You are only in this hobby because GW holds a boltgun to your head and FORCES you to spend money!

weeble1000 wrote:
Just don't buy anything. Better than buying shares. Cheaper too.

Don't buy nothing. Just buy better stuff from other companies. GW will catch on eventually when Mantic buys them out

Herzlos wrote:
GW will catch on eventually when Mantic buys them out

Ugh, So now we will get GW prices with Mantic awful quality... That is a nightmare...

More likely we'd get Mantic prices with GW quality. And skirmish games.


What might be an interesting approach to GW is to buy stuff from someone else, and write to GW with a copy of the receipt explaining why the money didn't go to GW. Maybe that'd shock them into changing if enough people did so.

Just stop buying their product.

If GW had a business-strategy fitting for the 21st century, they would have a way for us to communicate, why we stop buying their products.
As things stand, they'll just have to learn by making less money every year and flail about trying to figure out why.

I don't think anyone's suggested this yet, but I'd recommend you stop buying GW products.

 Venerate1 wrote:
Nay! There is no such thing as free will! You are only in this hobby because GW holds a boltgun to your head and FORCES you to spend money!

You type this out as hyperbolic sarcasm, but I've seen lots of people reveal that they're psychologically trapped in GW games, to some degree or another. Reasons and excuses I've read include:

- I've spent too much money on GW products to stop now. (Classic sunk cost fallacy, and I used to see it with distressing regularity)
- I buy GW models/rules or play GW games because I like the fluff. (No actual mention of enjoying the minis, rules, or games. A BL novel might give them as much or more enjoyment)
- If I started a new game I'd have to spend tons of money on it. (For one thing, they're already spending tons of money, more than they'd need for most new games, on filling out already-huge armies with no end in sight. For another, as I keep harping on, there are plenty of alternate, cheap or free rulesets that you can use your existing 40K/WHFB collection with. I'm sure the GW police won't break your door down and arrest you if you try it.)
- I don't like that other game's minis and fluff. (Well, as above. The Mantic police aren't going to break your door down etc. etc. if you decide to use your WHFB models and Old World [or bubble universe] background with Kings of War, or whatever. Some of those other alternate rulesets don't even have any models or fluff.)
- I don't like that other game's rules. (More subjective, but I think this is still a particular example of wargaming Stockholm syndrome or something. 40K and WHFB rules are widely known, but are actually weird outliers compared to most rules dealing with similar sized or organised armies. Of course other rules are going to seem weird and uncomfortable if you've started with and been fully immersed in the GW HobbyTM for at least two or three editions; but most are built to be more appropriate and elegant to the size of their forces, and designed to have a bit more of a tactical, tabletop-decision aspect than overwhelming strategic, micromanaged listbuilding. People think the micromanagement and special rules spam is 'fluffy', but most of the fluff in GW rules is the little title and caption written beside the bit that tells you how many dice to roll and how many wounds your result causes. Much of the rest is a wargaming quagmire. Or: other rules are like brown bread - it'll take a little time to get used to, but in the long run it's better, and before long the old stuff will start to feel like an 'orrible, sticky, claggy mess... )

What else? People complain that their opponents are too stuck on GW games, but sometimes they mention that those opponents are tired of GW too. I wonder just how much of it is down to a lack of will or courage to take a punt, divert some of the roaring flow of cash going to GW's coffers into a little rulebook or download, try to put together a couple of little demo gangs (even, as mentioned, with existing collections or proxies) or summat. Similarly, people complain that a GW store is the only place to game, which can be a restrictive head-scratcher of a problem, but again I wonder if there's some kind of inertia, a comfortable rut, and an assumption that you need a FLGS to play anything else in. I found out about a nearby wargaming club, miles closer than the nearest GW, but years after I started attending that GW, because I never bothered to look and ask. I've also played on a few kitchen tables many times. It's not going to be possible for everyone, but I don't think it's as generally impossible as often made out.

 Vermis wrote:
I don't think anyone's suggested this yet, but I'd recommend you stop buying GW products.

 Venerate1 wrote:
Nay! There is no such thing as free will! You are only in this hobby because GW holds a boltgun to your head and FORCES you to spend money!

You type this out as hyperbolic sarcasm, but I've seen lots of people reveal that they're psychologically trapped in GW games, to some degree or another. Reasons and excuses I've read include:

- I've spent too much money on GW products to stop now. (Classic sunk cost fallacy, and I used to see it with distressing regularity)
- I buy GW models/rules or play GW games because I like the fluff. (No actual mention of enjoying the minis, rules, or games. A BL novel might give them as much or more enjoyment)
- If I started a new game I'd have to spend tons of money on it. (For one thing, they're already spending tons of money, more than they'd need for most new games, on filling out already-huge armies with no end in sight. For another, as I keep harping on, there are plenty of alternate, cheap or free rulesets that you can use your existing 40K/WHFB collection with. I'm sure the GW police won't break your door down and arrest you if you try it.)
- I don't like that other game's minis and fluff. (Well, as above. The Mantic police aren't going to break your door down etc. etc. if you decide to use your WHFB models and Old World [or bubble universe] background with Kings of War, or whatever. Some of those other alternate rulesets don't even have any models or fluff.)
- I don't like that other game's rules. (More subjective, but I think this is still a particular example of wargaming Stockholm syndrome or something. 40K and WHFB rules are widely known, but are actually weird outliers compared to most rules dealing with similar sized or organised armies. Of course other rules are going to seem weird and uncomfortable if you've started with and been fully immersed in the GW HobbyTM for at least two or three editions; but most are built to be more appropriate and elegant to the size of their forces, and designed to have a bit more of a tactical, tabletop-decision aspect than overwhelming strategic, micromanaged listbuilding. People think the micromanagement and special rules spam is 'fluffy', but most of the fluff in GW rules is the little title and caption written beside the bit that tells you how many dice to roll and how many wounds your result causes. Much of the rest is a wargaming quagmire. Or: other rules are like brown bread - it'll take a little time to get used to, but in the long run it's better, and before long the old stuff will start to feel like an 'orrible, sticky, claggy mess... )

What else? People complain that their opponents are too stuck on GW games, but sometimes they mention that those opponents are tired of GW too. I wonder just how much of it is down to a lack of will or courage to take a punt, divert some of the roaring flow of cash going to GW's coffers into a little rulebook or download, try to put together a couple of little demo gangs (even, as mentioned, with existing collections or proxies) or summat. Similarly, people complain that a GW store is the only place to game, which can be a restrictive head-scratcher of a problem, but again I wonder if there's some kind of inertia, a comfortable rut, and an assumption that you need a FLGS to play anything else in. I found out about a nearby wargaming club, miles closer than the nearest GW, but years after I started attending that GW, because I never bothered to look and ask. I've also played on a few kitchen tables many times. It's not going to be possible for everyone, but I don't think it's as generally impossible as often made out.

Agreed.
I also think that some people are so engrossed that they can't or won't see outside of 40k and anything that isn't 40k stinks. I've heard people who have no idea what __insert game__'s fluff is, but say it's crap because it isn't like 40k.

Heh! I think that might be related to the phenomenon of GW fans resenting someone with cheaper minis: if they stop and consider the alternative too closely, it might seem too much like a good idea.

 Vermis wrote:

- I've spent too much money on GW products to stop now. (Classic sunk cost fallacy, and I used to see it with distressing regularity)

Itas not a fallacy, itys a state of mind. Chsing lost income is the bite that makes addicts out of (some) gamblers, its is also the reason scammer victims continue to pay long after they know inside its a con.
While the two are not directly compatible the ideology that a time emotional and monetary investment is something to keep a connexion too is hard to break, and why should people do so in the case of GW.
It's a hobby game not a crack addiction, gamers need not stop or socially pressured to move on from GW.
And for those who say 'plastic crack', and look to cases of people who are obsessed, what is the move on to do, its not to escape gaming altogether, the emphasis of the thread is a move to other games.

 Vermis wrote:

- I buy GW models/rules or play GW games because I like the fluff. (No actual mention of enjoying the minis, rules, or games. A BL novel might give them as much or more enjoyment)

A valid argument, though that mostly aligns around 40K. Especially now the Fantasy game world has been nuked, GW no longer has incumbency there.

 Vermis wrote:

- If I started a new game I'd have to spend tons of money on it. (For one thing, they're already spending tons of money, more than they'd need for most new games, on filling out already-huge armies with no end in sight. For another, as I keep harping on, there are plenty of alternate, cheap or free rulesets that you can use your existing 40K/WHFB collection with. I'm sure the GW police won't break your door down and arrest you if you try it.)

Here is the rub, Privateer Press and Corvus Belli charge GW prices for miniatures, and Privateer Press are more hardline about third party miniatures than GW ever was. Though not Corvus Belli are not. Despite this there is no notable nerdrage over prices of
Most Hawk Wargmes models make GW look value for money by comparison. Dropzone Commander is very expensive on a per miniature basis, yet Hawk Wargames can do no wrong.
Yes GW has to cut prices long term, especailly for 40K but others have got away with high prices for smaller scale gaming.

 Vermis wrote:

- I don't like that other game's minis and fluff. (Well, as above. The Mantic police aren't going to break your door down etc. etc. if you decide to use your WHFB models and Old World [or bubble universe] background with Kings of War, or whatever. Some of those other alternate rulesets don't even have any models or fluff.)

Mantic expect and hope you will be using their models for playing Warhammer, it is what they were made for. However they now are making Kimng of War rules for discontinued GW lines due to the End Times brainfart.

 Vermis wrote:

- I don't like that other game's rules. (More subjective, but I think this is still a particular example of wargaming Stockholm syndrome or something.)

Hobbyists are allowed to be set in their ways. As it is a hobby, nostalgia is a valid part of it.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

- If I started a new game I'd have to spend tons of money on it. (For one thing, they're already spending tons of money, more than they'd need for most new games, on filling out already-huge armies with no end in sight. For another, as I keep harping on, there are plenty of alternate, cheap or free rulesets that you can use your existing 40K/WHFB collection with. I'm sure the GW police won't break your door down and arrest you if you try it.)

Here is the rub, Privateer Press and Corvus Belli charge GW prices for miniatures, and Privateer Press are more hardline about third party miniatures than GW ever was. Though not Corvus Belli are not. Despite this there is no notable nerdrage over prices of
Most Hawk Wargmes models make GW look value for money by comparison. Dropzone Commander is very expensive on a per miniature basis, yet Hawk Wargames can do no wrong.
Yes GW has to cut prices long term, especailly for 40K but others have got away with high prices for smaller scale

A key thing to keep in mind (with DZC and PP games at least) is that a starter and rulebook are incredibly cheap compared to what GW offers ($20-$30 rulebook and $50 army, or a balanced 2 player starter for around $100 with rulebook).

On top of that, while the models are individually expensive, you need a lot less of them. The LVO winner list (IIRC) was around $800-$900 U.S. at MSRP, while the last major DZC tournament had the winner clocking in at around $300. I haven't priced PP armies recently, but last time I did a 3 list format army was around $700.

 Vermis wrote:
I don't think anyone's suggested this yet, but I'd recommend you stop buying GW products.

 Venerate1 wrote:
Nay! There is no such thing as free will! You are only in this hobby because GW holds a boltgun to your head and FORCES you to spend money!

You type this out as hyperbolic sarcasm, but I've seen lots of people reveal that they're psychologically trapped in GW games, to some degree or another. Reasons and excuses I've read include:

- I've spent too much money on GW products to stop now. (Classic sunk cost fallacy, and I used to see it with distressing regularity)
- I buy GW models/rules or play GW games because I like the fluff. (No actual mention of enjoying the minis, rules, or games. A BL novel might give them as much or more enjoyment)
- If I started a new game I'd have to spend tons of money on it. (For one thing, they're already spending tons of money, more than they'd need for most new games, on filling out already-huge armies with no end in sight. For another, as I keep harping on, there are plenty of alternate, cheap or free rulesets that you can use your existing 40K/WHFB collection with. I'm sure the GW police won't break your door down and arrest you if you try it.)
- I don't like that other game's minis and fluff. (Well, as above. The Mantic police aren't going to break your door down etc. etc. if you decide to use your WHFB models and Old World [or bubble universe] background with Kings of War, or whatever. Some of those other alternate rulesets don't even have any models or fluff.)
- I don't like that other game's rules. (More subjective, but I think this is still a particular example of wargaming Stockholm syndrome or something. 40K and WHFB rules are widely known, but are actually weird outliers compared to most rules dealing with similar sized or organised armies. Of course other rules are going to seem weird and uncomfortable if you've started with and been fully immersed in the GW HobbyTM for at least two or three editions; but most are built to be more appropriate and elegant to the size of their forces, and designed to have a bit more of a tactical, tabletop-decision aspect than overwhelming strategic, micromanaged listbuilding. People think the micromanagement and special rules spam is 'fluffy', but most of the fluff in GW rules is the little title and caption written beside the bit that tells you how many dice to roll and how many wounds your result causes. Much of the rest is a wargaming quagmire. Or: other rules are like brown bread - it'll take a little time to get used to, but in the long run it's better, and before long the old stuff will start to feel like an 'orrible, sticky, claggy mess... )

What else? People complain that their opponents are too stuck on GW games, but sometimes they mention that those opponents are tired of GW too. I wonder just how much of it is down to a lack of will or courage to take a punt, divert some of the roaring flow of cash going to GW's coffers into a little rulebook or download, try to put together a couple of little demo gangs (even, as mentioned, with existing collections or proxies) or summat. Similarly, people complain that a GW store is the only place to game, which can be a restrictive head-scratcher of a problem, but again I wonder if there's some kind of inertia, a comfortable rut, and an assumption that you need a FLGS to play anything else in. I found out about a nearby wargaming club, miles closer than the nearest GW, but years after I started attending that GW, because I never bothered to look and ask. I've also played on a few kitchen tables many times. It's not going to be possible for everyone, but I don't think it's as generally impossible as often made out.

Completely hit the nail on the head there, mate! I've heard hear arguments all too many times from lots of different people. Same people who are always first to volunteer when I offer a game with a different rule set and minis and then rave about how awesome it was. Then they take a psychological bitch slap from their abuser and silently crawl back to their GW stuff

 Orlanth wrote:


Here is the rub, Privateer Press and Corvus Belli charge GW prices for miniatures, and Privateer Press are more hardline about third party miniatures than GW ever was. Though not Corvus Belli are not. Despite this there is no notable nerdrage over prices of
Most Hawk Wargmes models make GW look value for money by comparison. Dropzone Commander is very expensive on a per miniature basis, yet Hawk Wargames can do no wrong.
Yes GW has to cut prices long term, especailly for 40K but others have got away with high prices for smaller scale gaming.

You're conflating cost and value here. Sure some games have mini's that cost as much as GW mini's, but you rarely need anything like as much of them. That $40 Warmachine unit might have the same number of mini's as that $40 40K unit, but the Warmachine one might be 20% of a complete army whilst the 40K is only 5% and needs a $40 transport on top.

If you look at total cost to play, most of these other games come out ahead, especially when you consider the rules. I don't think anyone else does a BRB for anything close to GW's $75, in fact most other rulesets (based on a straw poll of my book case) cost less than a GW army book.

There is also the underdog and economies of scale to factor in. I'll happily pay more for mini's made in small numbers by a garage company, than a mass produced mini from an international company with it's own casting machines, because I know it costs the former an order of magnitude more to make it than the latter.

Perhaps a better way to influence the company than buying shares is to write letters to their non-Kirby directors:

I think GW are changing slowly. They've obviously stepped up production, they've released stuff that they probably should have released 20 years ago, such as titans, Ad mech, and Harlequins. It seems like plastic sisters could be just around the corner (at last). Who knows, at this rate they might even bring back squats!. Prices are still steep, but I was shocked to see the new Skitarii launch at only £23.50 for ten. I expected them to be priced more like Scions. My first thought was: "wow, I could actually buy those and only feel slightly ripped off" (as opposed to the usual mugged and raped level of shame that I'm accustomed to when dealing with GW). Of course I didn't actually buy any (I'm not an idiot). We also have the new Execution Force game coming out, which almost looks like one of the old introductory board games that were IMHO instrumental in getting new players involved in 40k during the 90s.

Of course many people will still consider all this too little too late, and the state of the rules is still obscene. But I like to think that they are slowly feeling the pain of dipping sales and starting to respond.

Hey look, another one of these threads. "I'm mad as heck so let's do something... like buy stock.. , or write letters..., or just stop buying..." Its been said many, many, times. It doesn't work. It will never work. Even if we, as a community, somehow got the gazillions together to buy a controlling interest in the company, then what? Do we have a consensus about what we want to do with it?

Perhaps we do, to some extent, and perhaps we can get where we want to go without spending more than we already do.

I'd say most of us are pretty happy with the models and the fluff, and the art. Its the rules that suck (and the constant push to buy the latest version that fixed this and breaks that, on and on and on every 4, or 2 years, at $50.00+ a pop). I say screw that. We should develop better rules ourselves, with free up-dates for everyone. We can use the models we already have and still enjoy the fluff, even embellish it with fan fiction and fan art. It wouldn't cost us much, practically nothing really. I know, this would be like herding cats; everyone has their own ideas on how the make the game better. But if you truly want to do something constructive and empowering then this is it. Nothing else is go'a work.