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If you move 6" forward, then pivot 180°, in the movement phase, do you count as having moved Combat or Cruising speed?

Unlike previous editions pivotting is now part of movement and not free.

Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than wheeling round.

So we cannot pivot before moving or after mobing, but as moving - as the distance is part of how far they move.


If you moved 6" and then did something that made the model move past 6" did you go 6" or less?

Your move did not end until after the pivot, pivoting is the method vehicles turn by and they turn as they move.

In the case of vehicles that deviate from box or round in shape, ie same on all sides, this results in losing forward movement sometimes.

blaktoof wrote:
this results in losing forward movement sometimes.

This results in losing all movement at all times. If you want to play this way then I hope your opponent makes you sit there and measure out from every spot on the Tank to make sure that it didn't move more than 6'. Because this is incredibly stupid and time consuming I don't think anyone actually plays it this way, though feel free to tell me otherwise.

blaktoof wrote:
Unlike previous editions pivotting is now part of movement and not free.

Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than wheeling round.

So we cannot pivot before moving or after mobing, but as moving - as the distance is part of how far they move.


If you moved 6" and then did something that made the model move past 6" did you go 6" or less?

Your move did not end until after the pivot, pivoting is the method vehicles turn by and they turn as they move.

In the case of vehicles that deviate from box or round in shape, ie same on all sides, this results in losing forward movement sometimes.

What you're missing is what it says in the remainder of the paragraph you quoted. Vehicles do not have to move to pivot, it's just that they can turn while they're moving any number of times.

Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary.

Further, since pivoting doesn't count as moving, pivoting 180 after doing a 6" move doesn't count as moving further than 6".

Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed.

So if you move 6" and pivot 180, turning the vehicle around its center point and thus not moving beyond 6" from where you started, you still only count as having moved 6". Pivot as much as you want, you're not gaining ground if you do a 180 because the rear of the vehicle won't be further than the front of the vehicle was, if you're turning correctly since you pivot from the center.

If you move 6" and pivot your final distance from start to finish is the movement, not the 6" you did before the pivot.

the part you quote is stating that if you do not move you may pivot and still count as stationary, it in no way states that pivoting does not count as moving under any other circumstance.

Stating pivoting does not count as moving is not correct, it only does not count as moving if the vehicle remained stationary. ie had 0" moved that turn. Meaning you cannot go .1" and then pivot and say the pivot did not count as movement, because the vehicle did not remain stationary.

I do not disagree that the issue with vehicle movement is stupid.

However as you have to measure from their hull, but as you would for infantry, and you are not allowed to measure infantry movement from their front to back but have to do some from the same place to same place, this does RAW result in a situation where pivotting 180" as part of your move of a distance of any amount other than stationary can use all of your movement depending on how long a vehicle is.

 kingbobbito wrote:
So if you move 6" and pivot 180, turning the vehicle around its center point and thus not moving beyond 6" from where you started, you still only count as having moved 6". Pivot as much as you want, you're not gaining ground if you do a 180 because the rear of the vehicle won't be further than the front of the vehicle was, if you're turning correctly since you pivot from the center.

This is not quite right. A long narrow vehicle will gain ground pivoting as you describe. However the rule states that you cannot be more than 6" from the starting point which eliminates that.

Otherwise I agree.

Fragile wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
So if you move 6" and pivot 180, turning the vehicle around its center point and thus not moving beyond 6" from where you started, you still only count as having moved 6". Pivot as much as you want, you're not gaining ground if you do a 180 because the rear of the vehicle won't be further than the front of the vehicle was, if you're turning correctly since you pivot from the center.

This is not quite right. A long narrow vehicle will gain ground pivoting as you describe. However the rule states that you cannot be more than 6" from the starting point which eliminates that.

Otherwise I agree.

I'm not sure how. If you flip the vehicle180 degrees, so the front bumper now occupies where the back bumper was, there should be no gaining of ground, since you're doing it from the center of the vehicle. Battle Wagons are a good example for a longish vehicle. If you have a diagram of how it doing a 180 suddenly makes it longer than it was when it was stationary. I'd like to see. Not being snarky, but serious here.

The issue is more the 90° turns, not the 180s


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The rules question is about 180°, but the rules are how they are because of 90° turns.

To measure the distance a vehicle has moved you need only concern yourself with the center of the vehicle. If the center point, the axis around which a vehicle pivots, did not move more then 6 inches from where it started then the vehicle has only moved combat speed.

 DJGietzen wrote:
To measure the distance a vehicle has moved you need only concern yourself with the center of the vehicle. If the center point, the axis around which a vehicle pivots, did not move more then 6 inches from where it started then the vehicle has only moved combat speed.

This has been pointed out in the thread already that no this is not how it is done anymore this edition

Page 73

Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather then wheeling round. Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the movement phase count as stationary (however immobilised vehicles can't even pivot). Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed.

Only way the I see a thread concluding anything different is by intentionally taking words and letters out of the book and rescrambling them to form new statements from scratch.

I have not seen anything in this thread to suggest the rules do not want, instruct or expect you to measure to and from the center of a vehicles hull as you would the center of an infantry model's base. In fact the line in the BRB "Pivoting is always done from the center of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed." Implies exactly that method of measuring.

The book also states that you go from corner to corner on vehicles to determine facing being fired on. Since you go from corner to corner but my Nightscythe does not have corners does that make it all front? Implications are not rules nor should they be used to make judgements.

Well I was kinda using that reference because I was referring to the part where his 180 degree pivot doesn't increase his movement at all and if he only moved 6" before pivoting then he only moved combat speed not cruise speed.

Ok since this derailed into how vehicles and measuring distances are concerned then I will go to

page 72

As vehicles do not have bases, the normal rule of measuring to and from a base cannot be used. Instead for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull, ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements.

The centre of the vehicle is only the reference point to use when turning the vehicle in a pivot. For distance traveled you use the hull.

It's not like this stuff in the rules is far away in different sections. It's all on the two pages facing each other. Only read bold parts? Don't read? Cherry Pick?

The center point on a vehicle can be debateable if it's a skimmer with a flying base. Most people would pivot on the flying base, but the base may not be plased exactly at what people might consider the "middle" of the vehicle, such as the case with wave serpents.

You still use the model hull edge as the measuring distance and the centre of the hull as the reference for pivoting. For flyers it's page 84 and for Skimmers it's page 89. The bases are ignored for each unless the Flyer is in close combat or embarking/disembarking units in hover. Skimmers the base is ignored unless they are being charged or rammed.

So there is no consensus? Despite SerpentSpam dominating the meta for years?

You don't have the book? Check the pages I posted.

That passage doesn't address the part about 'no part may...' directly, I don't think? Implies an answer, but doesn't actually settle the question.

I'm not seeing the problem here. If you pivot around the center of the vehicle, no part of the vehicle should be further than if the vehicle had stayed in the same spot.

Here's a diagram of what happens if you spin a tank so that the center point doesn't move, ie pivoting around the center.



Forgive the crude MS paint diagram.

Very useful.

The back part has now moved 6" + length.

For Wave Serpents, that's 15" from where the back hatch was. Still no gain over the expected (6" from the front), but part of the vehicle did move 15" from where it started.

Unless they mean no part may end more than 6" away from where any part started. Which would allow what was shown in the diagram, but not any turning abuses.

The problem with the above, as we saw in 6th, is 90° turns. Let's imagine a vehicle that is 6"x3". It starts sideways. Moves up 6". Then rotates on center. The front end is now 9" forward instead of 6".

1. Simply put: No part of a vehicle's hull (or a model's base) can be more than X" away from where the vehicle started its movement.
2. Yep, this can be annoying, but it is key for determining whether or not a vehicle (model) gets into range with a weapon and where the point of disembarkation is. Also, whether or not models are in range for a turn one charge.
3. It stops the following BS: a) Lining up your bikes sideways, then pivoting and moving forward 12, magically being 13.5" closer to your opponent, and now able to shoot things you shouldn't be able to, or charge things you shouldn't be able to. b) Moving your Wave Serpent 6" forward, then spinning it (rotating around the center) before disembarking, magically gaining a free 3" of movement. [Note: I did this for a long time, until I was politely, but firmly educated as to why it was both against the rules and a bit of D-Baggery.] c) Deploying your Lynx (a, what 13" long model?) sideways to the deployment line, then rotating it, gaining at least 6" of range on the Pulsar, and then moving 12", now able to get LoS on something you otherwise would not. [Note: A player recently tried this one on me, in a tournament. I politely referred him to the rules referenced above about measuring from the hull and no part moving more than X". He got it; I won the game.] d) Land Raider & Rhino Rotate and Rush! A free 4" and 2.5" or so respectively, yes?

Problems (often) arise when the pivoting is not accounted for in the movement, but rather is thought of as being done before moving or after completing a move. If you resolve it as a simultaneous translation and rotation, you shouldn't have issues.

Bharring wrote:
Very useful.

The back part has now moved 6" + length.

For Wave Serpents, that's 15" from where the back hatch was. Still no gain over the expected (6" from the front), but part of the vehicle did move 15" from where it started.

Unless they mean no part may end more than 6" away from where any part started. Which would allow what was shown in the diagram, but not any turning abuses.

The problem with the above, as we saw in 6th, is 90° turns. Let's imagine a vehicle that is 6"x3". It starts sideways. Moves up 6". Then rotates on center. The front end is now 9" forward instead of 6".

I will say that I assumed they're talking no part ending more than 6" away, as this is how everything else in the game moves. No part of a unit can move outside of 6" doesn't prevent me from turning my bikes sideways, so long as they're within 6" of where the front of the bike started.

As for 90, if I'm understanding this scenario correctly, wouldn't I make my 90° pivot before I move the vehicle? And pivoting on the spot doesn't count as movement, if I'm going off the rule that just pivoting isn't movement, and it would happen before the movement begins. The tank technically shouldn't drive sideways, it has to do the initial pivot of 90, which isn't movement, and then drive 6" forward.... so not gaining any ground beyond where it was prior to movement but after the pivot.

Throw in then that if you make a 90 pivot after you do all your movement, unless you have a vehicle wider than than long, you're actually losing ground if you pivot around the center. Doing a 90° pivot after you've moved your vehicle, if you pivot correctly around the center, means that the vehicle actually won't be ending the full 6" away, and you aren't allowed to slide it sideways the extra inch or whatever.

Then again, I guess the rules don't say a vehicle has to drive forward or backwards, which makes logical sense, it's just how everyone I know plays it.

It doesn't move up sideways, it moves forward. All vehicles are provided a facing with it's own armour including a front. Move forward based on your front facing. If you are facing 90 degrees from the direction you are desiring to go then you have to pivot the vehicle to face the direction you wish to go then move based on the rules for measuring distance then if you want to face somewhere else you pivot again. Work it out step by step that way if it's too confusing. Most of us can place the vehicle it's desired distance and have it facing where we want in a simple move that already accounts for all the steps and it may seem confusing but breaking down how we moved is as written above.

DCannon4Life wrote:
Moving your Wave Serpent 6" forward, then spinning it (rotating around the center) before disembarking, magically gaining a free 3" of movement.

Where are you getting these 3" by pivoting around the center? Did you see the diagram I posted about proper vehicle pivoting of 180s? If you pivot around the exact center of the vehicle (not around a flying base or anything like that), you end with your rear exactly where your front should have been. take a ruler, and spin it around the 6" mark. The ruler doesn't gain any ground, the 0" end will be exactly where the 12" end was, spinning something around its perfect center will never make a 180 gain ground.

Pretty big thread on this here if anyone is interested. Much discussion and providing of diagrams

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/450/602413.page

 ProwlerPC wrote:
It doesn't move up sideways, it moves forward. All vehicles are provided a facing with it's own armour including a front. Move forward based on your front facing. If you are facing 90 degrees from the direction you are desiring to go then you have to pivot the vehicle to face the direction you wish to go then move based on the rules for measuring distance then if you want to face somewhere else you pivot again. Work it out step by step that way if it's too confusing. Most of us can place the vehicle it's desired distance and have it facing where we want in a simple move that already accounts for all the steps and it may seem confusing but breaking down how we moved is as written above.

Nothing you posted about vehicle movement actually exists in rules, however. Vehicles may freely move in any direction they wish, with no requirement to drive "forwards"

If you disagree, a page citation and quote is required

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Pretty big thread on this here if anyone is interested. Much discussion and providing of diagrams

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/450/602413.page

Yes this thread nails it. The point of the phrasing talking about pivoting from the center is to prevent pivoting corner to corner and "walking" your way up the board through free pivoting movement. It does not prevent, as an example because it's the best abuser of this mechanic: a Dark Eldar raider from lining up on the deployment line sideways, pivoting 90 degrees on its center, essentially gaining 3" of "free" movement, and then moving at either combat or cruising speed, because the pivoting is not moving.

What it does prevent is using something like the point of the shock prow as my pivot point, then using the rear of the vehicle as the pivot point and "walking" again, etc., still not technically moving.

That's the 'pivot on center' rule. What about the 'more than 6"' rule?

Bharring wrote:
That's the 'pivot on center' rule. What about the 'more than 6"' rule?

Sure, what is the "more than 6" rule?