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A grey Knight terminator squad is lvl1, if I have the warp charge points, can I cast both force and hammerhand?

Yes, they can.

Absolutely. Technically, they should be able to cast 3 (force, rolled power, and primaris power)

Yes. Go for broke and attempt Banishment, too!

A Lvl1 Brother-Captain could conceivably attempt 5!
Though rare and not optimal, it COULD happen

1 Force
2 Primaris Power
3 Rolled Power
4 Liber Daemonica bonus power
5 Warlord Trait bonus power(#6 I think)

As above yes you keep casting until you run out of Warp Charges or have attempted to manifest every power you have.

or choose not to cast anything else. Just cause you CAN cast a power does not mean you must make the attempt.

I'm curious how you guys interpret the phrase "The number of psychic powers a psyker can use each turn depends on his mastery level."

I realize the language leaves some wiggle room to try and argue the point, but I can't see how a reasonable human being doesn't know EXACTLY what the author intends.

Unless we're doing that 'arguing RAW with no regard for actually playing the game' thing again.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'm curious how you guys interpret the phrase "The number of psychic powers a psyker can use each turn depends on his mastery level."

I realize the language leaves some wiggle room to try and argue the point, but I can't see how a reasonable human being doesn't know EXACTLY what the author intends.

Unless we're doing that 'arguing RAW with no regard for actually playing the game' thing again.

As a statement by itself, it doesn't just leave 'wiggle room'... it's completely and utterly meaningless without some clarifying statement that defines just what that dependancy actually is.


My personal opinion is that the introduction paragraph that includes that statement was a cut-and-paste from 6th edition that slipped through whatever minimal proff-reading the 7th ed book got, and should be ignored. The rest of the psychic rules make it fairly clear that psykers are intended to be able to keep casting until they run out of charges.

 jokerkd wrote:
Absolutely. Technically, they should be able to cast 3 (force, rolled power, and primaris power)

They don't roll for powers.

They have a set of powers. For regular units its Hammer Hand, Banishment, and Force.

But yes, they can cast all 3 if they have the warp charges to do so.

 Jimsolo wrote:


Unless we're doing that 'arguing RAW with no regard for actually playing the game' thing again.

Isnt that what this forum is for? Lol

 jokerkd wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:


Unless we're doing that 'arguing RAW with no regard for actually playing the game' thing again.

Isnt that what this forum is for? Lol

Only in those discussions that are dealing with RAW with no regard for actually playing the game.


And these days, even in those threads people quite often add in their own house rules that cover the way they choose to play the game where it is different to the RAW.

 Jimsolo wrote:
"The number of psychic powers a psyker can use each turn depends on his mastery level."

Yes.... a mastery level 1 can cast 3 powers, a level 2 can cast 4 powers, a level 3 can cast 5 powers, etc.

The number of psychic powers you know (and thus are able to cast) depends on what your mastery level is, exactly as you quoted. Nowhere does it say the number of powers you can cast is equal to your mastery level.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
"The number of psychic powers a psyker can use each turn depends on his mastery level."

Yes.... a mastery level 1 can cast 3 powers, a level 2 can cast 4 powers, a level 3 can cast 5 powers, etc.

The number of psychic powers you know (and thus are able to cast) depends on what your mastery level is, exactly as you quoted. Nowhere does it say the number of powers you can cast is equal to your mastery level.

What you say is not(necessarily) true. A ML 1 psyker may well only be able to cast 2 powers(and the same one upgrade to ML2).

If you take a SM Librarian and exchange his force weapon for a grav pistol he will not have the force power and thus will not have 3 powers therefore cannot cast 3 powers(if you take 1 power each from 2 disciplines he will only have 2 total powers as rolled or primaris).

Oh, and the rule on number of powers used per turn depending on his mastery level is an independent li e an an indepedent rule. It is just not properly explained and in context with later rules actually lends more credence to the RAW(for that section) being a ML1 psyker(always also read psychic unit both terms have the same definition) can only cast 1 power(the primaris is a bonus and the force is provided by the weapon).

While this is RAW(see above), it is not HIWPI, nor most else here on Dakka(or that I play with), even though i don't even field many psykers.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
"The number of psychic powers a psyker can use each turn depends on his mastery level."

Yes.... a mastery level 1 can cast 3 powers, a level 2 can cast 4 powers, a level 3 can cast 5 powers, etc.

The number of psychic powers you know (and thus are able to cast) depends on what your mastery level is, exactly as you quoted. Nowhere does it say the number of powers you can cast is equal to your mastery level.

Thank you for posting this. I thought I was taking crazy pills when I kept hearing people say you can cast more than your ML. I honestly could NOT see the anyone could read it that way. When I read it, it seemed clear as day the "number of powers" equals (depends on) the ML. To me, "depends on" is interchangeable with "equals", but I can see how that is debatable.

I still believe you can only cast the number of powers "equal" to your ML, but at least I can finally see where this "wiggle-room" is coming from.




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Yeah, it is the Manifesting Psychic Powers rule a page or so later that make multiple powers from any given psyker(remember earlier note) ignore the bolded Mastery Levels rules.

The Psychic phase rules are mostly fethed.

 Galef wrote:
When I read it, it seemed clear as day the "number of powers" equals (depends on) the ML. To me, "depends on" is interchangeable with "equals", but I can see how that is debatable.-

It's not so much debateable as simply false.

'Depends on' is not synonymous with 'equal to'.

I don't really see how the later pages override the first section. Sure it says that you can continue to cast as long as you have WC, but that doesn't exclusively say you can cast past your pre-established limit

And yes, in context "depends on" can be synonymous with "equals". At least in American English.

For example:
"The number of apples I can eat for lunch depends on how many I can fit in my lunch box"
"The number of apples I can eat for lunch equals how many I can fit in my lunch box"

While one sentence may "feel" more appropriate, both sentences are acceptable

Except they don't tell us what this 'limit' is, just that it somehow depends on their mastery level.

 Ghaz wrote:
Except they don't tell us what this 'limit' is, just that it somehow depends on their mastery level.

This is a point I have not been able to see until this thread. I can finally see the other side of the debate, though I don't yet agree with it.

 Galef wrote:
I don't really see how the later pages override the first section.

It doesn't... because the first section doesn't actually set a limit. It just states that there is one, without telling us what it is.

And yes, in context "depends on" can be synonymous with "equals". At least in American English.

Yes, it can... but in this particular case, we're not provided with that context. We're given a nebulous statement with no clarification.

For example:
"The number of apples I can eat for lunch depends on how many I can fit in my lunch box"
"The number of apples I can eat for lunch equals how many I can fit in my lunch box"

Alternatively, the amount of rent I can afford depends on my salary.
The amount of rent I can afford is unlikely to be equal to my salary.

Again, unless you are provided a context to define that 'depends on' as being 'equal to', you can't say that's what it definitely means. And the context we are given is instead that psykers can continue to cast powers so long as they have warp charges.

 Galef wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Except they don't tell us what this 'limit' is, just that it somehow depends on their mastery level.

This is a point I have not been able to see until this thread. I can finally see the other side of the debate, though I don't yet agree with it.

"Whether we go to the store tomorrow depends on the weather."

According to you, I can read this sentence as "Whether we go to the store tomorrow equals the weather."

No, I said "in context" they can be synonymous. For the entire time 7th ed had existed, I could only read this rule in the context that "depends on" is "equals".

I could not read it any other way, nor could I see how anyone else could. NOW, however, I do see the "other context" that grants the wiggle room in the rule.

I can see the other viewpoint, but I still choose to read the rule in the way that makes sense to me, which is:
"The number of psychic powers a psyker can use each turn equals his mastery level."

Except you don't have anything 'in context' to support that claim.

The whether we go to the store example is not accurate in this case.

It would be: the chances of us going to the store depends on the weather.

The chances being a number and the depends on being equal to and finally the weather having an assigned or assumed numeric value.

In this case if the weather is bad we have a 0-20 percent chance of going to the store whereas good weather would have an 80-100 percent chance(or visa versa)

Not saying I was claiming anything. I am just pointing out how I read the rule from Day 1, and how I will continue to play it. If I was going to site any precedence for a claim, it would be to reference the 6th ed rules that clearly allowed a ML2 psyker to cast only 2 powers. BUT that is is the previous edition, so I will not be making that claim

If you and I were playing a game and you wanted to cast 3 powers with a ML2 psyker, good luck getting that many WC to do it. It is not that game breaking, I would probably let you go right ahead.

I, however, will not be casting more powers that I "think" I can cast

Except as has been pointed out, all you have is your opinion on how the rules read. You're trying to enforce your opinion on somebody without any evidence to back it up.

I should explain better for both sides.

The context issue is that when a number or equivalent phrasing "depends on" a particular quality (especially a quantitative one), it should very much read "equals to"

However

"Use" is ill-defined.
Use can be the limit of casting(ML1 can xast 1).
Use can be which powers are available(defined in later rules).

The second is more likey between both the rules on which powers the psyker(unit) has, and the the manifesting rules.

P.s. you also have the grade-school grammar "can" vs "may".

You "can"(are capable if casting powers depending on your ml), but it does not define how many powers you may use.

 Ghaz wrote:
. You're trying to enforce your opinion on somebody without any evidence to back it up.

Uh, I don't think he is...

Galef wrote:
If you and I were playing a game and you wanted to cast 3 powers with a ML2 psyker, good luck getting that many WC to do it. It is not that game breaking, I would probably let you go right ahead

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The context issue is that when a number or equivalent phrasing "depends on" a particular quality (especially a quantitative one), it should very much read "equals to".

No, it really shouldn't. See my previous 'rent' example.

Sorry, its late here and I misread his post. I blame it on trying to watch Letterman while posting

 insaniak wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
. You're trying to enforce your opinion on somebody without any evidence to back it up.

Uh, I don't think he is...

Galef wrote:
If you and I were playing a game and you wanted to cast 3 powers with a ML2 psyker, good luck getting that many WC to do it. It is not that game breaking, I would probably let you go right ahead

Thank you for understanding the meaning of my post. I am not trying to be adversarial, just stating HIWPI, not how I would force someone else to play it. When there is doubt, I always err on the side that is "less permission" or has the most limits. I find this to be the most civil way to play.

It is hard to comprehend how a set number has been implied, yet no one can figure out what that is. I just made what I thought was the most logical leap. That darn GW and their rules writing. ***shakes fist in the air***


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