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Trying to round out my first 1500 point list (new to the hobby) and playing out of the khorne dex. Trying to choose between these to for mainly flyer defense back field fire.Soul grinder seems to have upper hand here with skyfire but I like the forgefiend model better and read else where they do pretty well with 8 hades shots a 6 is bound to come up.......being new just seeking opinions on theses two models from someone who's used both thanks for your time!

Both are bad at killing flyers. Neither do enough damage to a flyer to justify taking them solely to kill flyers. Plus most flyers are ignorable anyway.

However the Soul Grinder is a good unit in general. It is very durable, does good damage both in combat and in shooting (with the right upgrades) and has deep strike.

The Forgefiend on the other hand is not good. It is way overpriced to how fragile it is and for only having BS3.

If you want flyer defense, get a fire raptor, or a hades drake.

Disappointing news. trying to keep my points limit around 1500 while i'm still learning the game so dont want to add the helldrake formation with the warp/raptors tax. Guess i will get a soul grinder and see how it goes.....Thanks for the info

Don't be too concerned about having to deal with Flyers. If you're playing Khorne Demonkin you shouldn't really have anything in your backfield anyway (except maybe a Cultist squad to hold an objective). Everything else is going to be pushing to get into Assault, where Flyers can't do anything anyway.

Soul Grinders are great on their own btw. Equip it with the torrent Flamer as you move it across the board into their lines, where it does fairly well in assault too since AV13 can be awkward to deal with (Krak Grenades can't hurt it).

 GoonBandito wrote:
Don't be too concerned about having to deal with Flyers. If you're playing Khorne Demonkin you shouldn't really have anything in your backfield anyway (except maybe a Cultist squad to hold an objective). Everything else is going to be pushing to get into Assault, where Flyers can't do anything anyway.

Soul Grinders are great on their own btw. Equip it with the torrent Flamer as you move it across the board into their lines, where it does fairly well in assault too since AV13 can be awkward to deal with (Krak Grenades can't hurt it).

Guess I'm over thinking the flyer thing just trying to round the list off. Got some melta bikes and and brutes to deal with armor but was not sure what to do about flyers, have only played 2 small games at my flgs so far and have not had to deal with them. Thanks for the advice!

if you were to look into a fire raptor thats probably one of the best options you can add. especially for its points. its ability to shoot ground and air is its real advantage. all that skyfire stuff on the ground now cant shoot at much (Curse the 7th ed skyfire rule).

edit: here is the FW experimental rules.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/fire-raptor.pdf

with the reaper batteries for its points its excellent, and MUCH better than the FF...

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
if you were to look into a fire raptor thats probably one of the best options you can add. especially for its points. its ability to shoot ground and air is its real advantage. all that skyfire stuff on the ground now cant shoot at much (Curse the 7th ed skyfire rule).

edit: here is the FW experimental rules.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/fire-raptor.pdf

with the reaper batteries for its points its excellent, and MUCH better than the FF...

The experimental rules aren't valid because they've been officially released (for chaos it's in IA13)

Also OP is playing KDK so can't take any of this.

And what are the rules changes?
is looking at the experimental rules a good indicator of where the models rules are at? or should someone thinking of getting the model just buy IA:13 to see if the model may fit in with their army?

and ofcourse i forgot GW doesnt consider supplements to a codex to be based on that codex and those rules arent allowed.

The Forgefiend is simply too expensive (in the current meta) for what it brings to the table. Hades autocannons are a bad option because with BS3 you will be missing, on average, half the shots per turn. Ectoplasm cannons are a bit better (for a BS3 vehicle at least) but still hardly great, you will need the additional one if you want to really kill something with the small blast templates, and that makes the Forgefiend to go up to 200 points.

If this were 5th edition with its hardass vehicles, then it would be ok. You would have an insanely hard to kill bastard (vehicle plus daemon and it will not die) spitting out three plasma cannon shots per turn. But this is 7th edition, where not only a single lucky lascannon or melta shot can turn any vehicle into a pile of useless garbage, but there are quite a number of weapons and combos out there that can glance most vehicles to death with extreme ease.

It's a pity, because despite its flaws, I actually like the model.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
And what are the rules changes?
is looking at the experimental rules a good indicator of where the models rules are at? or should someone thinking of getting the model just buy IA:13 to see if the model may fit in with their army?

and ofcourse i forgot GW doesnt consider supplements to a codex to be based on that codex and those rules arent allowed.

Khorne Daemonkin isn't a supplement, it is its own codex completely separate from CSM. That is why KDK can't take CSM unit from FW because they aren't CSMs.

And the experimental rules are not a good indicator for the Chaos Fire Raptor because they got a lot of different options. You need the IA13 version.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
And what are the rules changes?
is looking at the experimental rules a good indicator of where the models rules are at? or should someone thinking of getting the model just buy IA:13 to see if the model may fit in with their army?

and ofcourse i forgot GW doesnt consider supplements to a codex to be based on that codex and those rules arent allowed.

Khorne Daemonkin isn't a supplement, it is its own codex completely separate from CSM. That is why KDK can't take CSM unit from FW because they aren't CSMs.

And the experimental rules are not a good indicator for the Chaos Fire Raptor because they got a lot of different options. You need the IA13 version.

yeah i know KDK isnt a CSM book. it just uses bits and pieces. it should be a supplement for both CSM and Daemons.

and yes i know IA13 has new options, but how drastically different from the experimental rules are they? did they take things away? you need something to look over so you have some idea of what your getting into. i mean who buys a codex with zero idea of what to expect, or models for their rules, you atleast get a base point to work from.

IA13 is the official rules. The Fire Raptor is 20 points cheaper, doesn't get POTMS, and it can be upgraded with various chaos goodies like dirgecasters, warpflame gargoyles, daemonic possession, reaper autocannon batteries, balefire missiles, and malefic ammunition.

If you want to play the Fire Raptor without begging your opponent to let you use FW's experimental rules, get IA13.

yep now if you look at the experimental rules, the only thing different is that it gets CSM vehicle options, maelific ammo and balefire missiles, the 20 pt drop and no potms is standard chaos.

oh and as to begging to use the experimental rules just remember. as we all know FW is legal BUT your still gonna be begging to use IA13 anyway.

and so as i said. those experimental rules are perfect for what i used them for, a basis for deciding if the model is for you, SURE you should be buying IA13 anyway but for something that can be quick linked to a player so they could make a decision of if it was for them. then it fits those purposes

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
as we all know FW is legal BUT your still gonna be begging to use IA13 anyway

asking someone not to use official GW products in their list is pretty unsportsmanlike imo, anyone who does that is just making a house rule. it's the equivalent of me asking people to let me consider my bolters to be assault 2 or insisting that nobody be allowed to use formations

brb checking the 3rd ed codex to get a 'feel' for the new units I want

 j31c3n wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
as we all know FW is legal BUT your still gonna be begging to use IA13 anyway

asking someone not to use official GW products in their list is pretty unsportsmanlike imo, anyone who does that is just making a house rule. it's the equivalent of me asking people to let me consider my bolters to be assault 2 or insisting that nobody be allowed to use formations

hey i agree with you, but sadly we all know forgeworld has a certain stigma to it.

and as to using older rules to get an idea of how a model works/ would fit into your list.
do you ever just go buy a kit and THEN look at rules. or if you can get a source of rules do you check them out to get an idea THEN buy a kit?

ps. id obviously reccomend IA13 to all CSM players....