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So in my attempt to make Flayed Ones better (they're great now, but I want better!), I've been thinking about how to get an IC attached to them. As it stands, they can't start on the board with an IC, since they have Infiltrate and no Necron ICs do (unless you roll the Strategic trait). I think they can start in DS reserve with a Destroyer Lord or IC with Veil of Darkness, but Deep Strike is sorta unreliable, especially in the numbers you want to bring them in.

So, Night Scythes. Since they can be FA now, you should be able to start them in a Night Scythe, no? They don't have a rule stopping them from embarking, and they're Infantry so that's fine. I don't see a reason why they couldn't.

The reason an IC can't join them is because of the BRB rule "An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.", but does that apply to Reserves as well? I'm not talking Deep Strike or Outflank reserves, where obviously there are restrictions, but plain old, walk on the board Reserves. In that case, I don't think there should be nothing preventing an IC from joining them.

So if I have, say, an Overlord and 14 Flayed Ones, I should be able to start them on a Night Scythe and bring them in on 2 or so, correct?

Ehh, I still think it falls under 'Infiltrators joining non-infiltrators' no matter where they start.

That said, you could roll Master of Ambush and give the IC@s Infiltrate.

from what I understand there isn't.

so you are correct.

happy wargaming,

-Mikey

It depends on how one defines "Infiltrator".

It could mean one who is Infiltrating, or in this case, deploying after everyone else who does not have the Infiltrate rule.

However, my training in English treats it as one who Infiltrates, which is always active. A painter doesn't stop being a painter when they put their brushes down, do they?

So, it depends on how your group chooses to define "Infiltrator". Deep Striking, riding a Flyer, or Outflanking does nothing to change this.

Do to how the infiltrate rule works you are always infiltrating, even when you are getting prepared for reserves.

So under both the definitions provided above you are always an infiltrator(you are actively doing it along with being one who does it).

The FAQ states very cleary that infiltrator IC/Units cannot join/be joined by non-infiltrator IC/Units.

So yes there is something that stops this from happening.

However, feel free to discuss it with your group and house rulean option to both "not infiltrate"(which should include no outflank) specifically for joining purposes and/or for a pre-deployment joining for warlord traits that grant "a warlord and his unit" infiltrate(made infuriating on ICs with no access to infiltrate units or only access to units that you would never want to deploy them with: shrike)

Alright, but what about the rules for ICs and Transports? Per BRB:

If an Independent Character (or even more than one) and a unit are both embarked upon the same vehicle, they are automatically joined, just as if the Independent Character was within 2" of the unit. If either an Independent Character or a unit is already in a vehicle, the other may join them by embarking too (assuming, of course, that there is enough space).

By this logic, if they don't join, they can still both embark on the same Night Scythe separately as long as there is room. Or does the "Cannot join Infiltrators" rule overwrite that?

If they don't join, then they are two seperate units, and unless the transport has rules stating otherwise (the nightscythe doesn't), only one unit may be carried by a transport at a time.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Do to how the infiltrate rule works you are always infiltrating, even when you are getting prepared for reserves.

So under both the definitions provided above you are always an infiltrator(you are actively doing it along with being one who does it).

The FAQ states very cleary that infiltrator IC/Units cannot join/be joined by non-infiltrator IC/Units.

So yes there is something that stops this from happening.

However, feel free to discuss it with your group and house rulean option to both "not infiltrate"(which should include no outflank) specifically for joining purposes and/or for a pre-deployment joining for warlord traits that grant "a warlord and his unit" infiltrate(made infuriating on ICs with no access to infiltrate units or only access to units that you would never want to deploy them with: shrike)

When placing a unit in Reserves, it is removed from being deployed in Deployment. For some that means that the Infiltrate option is no longer in force, save for the Outflanking option.

Note, that I agree that just possessing the rule classes the model as an Infiltrator until we are told otherwise. But some do not read it that way, and so choose to consider it only when deploying during Deployment.

Also note that this same concept applies to Shrike as well.

Requizen wrote:
Alright, but what about the rules for ICs and Transports? Per BRB:

If an Independent Character (or even more than one) and a unit are both embarked upon the same vehicle, they are automatically joined, just as if the Independent Character was within 2" of the unit. If either an Independent Character or a unit is already in a vehicle, the other may join them by embarking too (assuming, of course, that there is enough space).

By this logic, if they don't join, they can still both embark on the same Night Scythe separately as long as there is room. Or does the "Cannot join Infiltrators" rule overwrite that?

You cannot have an IC in a Transport with a unit and not have them joined. The same would apply as if they were within 2" of the unit at the end Deployment or Movement.

You place things in reserve during deployment, units with infiltrate do not deploy at the same time as other units; so you have a case where you place the unit in reserve with no option to outflank for "prepare reserves", then (until the faq said specifically that you cannot) you place your IC with infiltrate into reserves attached to the unit already prepared as normal reserves(thus still gaining no benefit from the infiltrate).

If you follow the steps in the correct order then you can never gain any benefits from an ic/unit with infiltrate joining/being joined by one without it. The non-infiltrator will always be on the field or in normal reserves before the infiltrator can join.

This whole issue(and the FAQ) is counter-intuitive to the way infiltrate is written(if 1 model has the rule the whole unit benefits), so that is why I advocate one or both of the house rules I stated above.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You place things in reserve during deployment, units with infiltrate do not deploy at the same time as other units; so you have a case where you place the unit in reserve with no option to outflank for "prepare reserves", then (until the faq said specifically that you cannot) you place your IC with infiltrate into reserves attached to the unit already prepared as normal reserves(thus still gaining no benefit from the infiltrate).

Putting a unit in Reserves is not deploying the unit, though. They do not deploy until they arrive from Reserves. So, you can put a unit with Infiltrate in to Reserves before you finish putting non-Infiltrating units on the board.

Hence, defining "Infiltrator" as either a possessor or active user is important to the question.

First line of "preparing reserves", brb: "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

"Combined Reserve Units", brb: "During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together."

Infiltrate, brb: "Units that contain at least 1 model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed."

As you can see with those 3 quotes, reserves are prepared during deployment, and infiltrators do not get their deployment until all other units are finished.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
First line of "preparing reserves", brb: "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

"Combined Reserve Units", brb: "During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together."

Infiltrate, brb: "Units that contain at least 1 model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed."

As you can see with those 3 quotes, reserves are prepared during deployment, and infiltrators do not get their deployment until all other units are finished.

Reread your quotes.

Reserves are declared while deploying the army, not necessarily the unit. The delay is only when deploying the Infiltrator. Putting it in Reserves is not deploying the unit, so, you do not have to delay declaring it to be in Reserves.

P.S. It still doesn't mean that they aren't Infiltrators when being put in to Reserve.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
First line of "preparing reserves", brb: "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."
.

I am confused, doesn't this show that putting units into reserves is not deploying? I would think that deployment is a stage of setting up the game game, but deploying is the physical act of placing models on the battlefield.

In that way it would make perfect sense for a non infiltrating IC/unit to be disallowed from joining an infiltrating unit/IC and vice versa.

 Sautek Supreme wrote:
I would think that deployment is a stage of setting up the game game, but deploying is the physical act of placing models on the battlefield.

That is how the BRB uses "deployment" and "deploy". In every method of arriving from Reserves, "deploy" is the verb used. "Deployment" is only used to that setup stage.

So, while Declaring a unit in Reserves is part of Deployment, it is not deploying the unit. One reason why the distinction of "not joining a unit of infiltrators during deployment" can prevent an IC from joining a unit with Infiltrate even while in Reserves if the term Infiltrator is defined as a possessor and not just a performer.

Hmmm, this would seem more open to interpretation than not, at least by myself and the folks I play with. I would end up allowing the flayed ones example and call it HIWPI

Requizen wrote:
So in my attempt to make Flayed Ones better (they're great now, but I want better!), I've been thinking about how to get an IC attached to them. As it stands, they can't start on the board with an IC, since they have Infiltrate and no Necron ICs do (unless you roll the Strategic trait). I think they can start in DS reserve with a Destroyer Lord or IC with Veil of Darkness, but Deep Strike is sorta unreliable, especially in the numbers you want to bring them in.

So, Night Scythes. Since they can be FA now, you should be able to start them in a Night Scythe, no? They don't have a rule stopping them from embarking, and they're Infantry so that's fine. I don't see a reason why they couldn't.

The reason an IC can't join them is because of the BRB rule "An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.", but does that apply to Reserves as well? I'm not talking Deep Strike or Outflank reserves, where obviously there are restrictions, but plain old, walk on the board Reserves. In that case, I don't think there should be nothing preventing an IC from joining them.

So if I have, say, an Overlord and 14 Flayed Ones, I should be able to start them on a Night Scythe and bring them in on 2 or so, correct?

If taking a CAD (which you are doing anyway if suggesting to take a FA NS), then instead take a bunker with escape hatch. Deploy destroyer lord/overlord in bunker, disembark 12" + 6" from bunker T1, attach to flayed ones. Much easier way around it. Also if taking Bunker, it allows a lych star to be far more useful due to escape hatch.