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Is there anything preventing alpha legion from taking a greater daemon?

Good question. I have never really considered it, but it would be nice to infiltrate the host...

I just read the rule in question, and I think it could be argued either way. The rule only specifically mentions Daemon Packs (which have a restriction placed on their use), Daemon Princes and Possessed Chaos Space Marines (which do not have a restriction on their use), making no reference to greater daemons.

This is my personal opinion, based loosely on the rule in question. I would not mind an Alpha Legion opponent playing a Greater Daemon, as long as he fielded a unit of cultists. I believe this would be in the spirit of the rule, but once again, that is just my opinion; I'm sure there are others.

Sal.

So if someone shows up with Alpha legion with a bloodthirster but no cultists what are you going to do?

Nothing.

Alpha Legion has no rules that mentions Greater Deamons, so we have to assume that the standard rules for taking a Greater Deamon still apply. The cultist leader is not an Aspiring Champion so he can't be the Deamonhost. But the Alpha Legion rules only puts limits on Deamon Packs and Icons that they summon.

Of course I would question any Chaos Player who plays Alpha Legion without taking cultists, thats like taking a Space Marine disadvantage without taking any traits.

Mahu is correct, as the rules are written. I have to agree with him. It is pretty "unfluffy," but I don't see how it's against the rules, per se.

As I said, it was just my opinion that I would have no problem at all if the army did contain cultists, but I wouldn't openly object if the army didn't contain them. I admit that my opinion about the rules doesn't come into play in a tournament situation if my opinion is not supported by the rules themselves

So if someone shows up with Alpha legion with a bloodthirster but no cultists what are you going to do?

I'm going to tell my mom that they're not playing fair.

Posted By Saldiven on 05/04/2006 1:14 PM
Good question. I have never really considered it, but it would be nice to infiltrate the host...

I just read the rule in question, and I think it could be argued either way. The rule only specifically mentions Daemon Packs (which have a restriction placed on their use), Daemon Princes and Possessed Chaos Space Marines (which do not have a restriction on their use), making no reference to greater daemons.

This is my personal opinion, based loosely on the rule in question. I would not mind an Alpha Legion opponent playing a Greater Daemon, as long as he fielded a unit of cultists. I believe this would be in the spirit of the rule, but once again, that is just my opinion; I'm sure there are others.

Sal.

I would disagree. The special rule for daemons in Alpha Legion overrides the general rule for daemons in the book.

As the rule for Alpha Legion only permits Daemon packs, possessed, and daemon princes, those are the only daemons that can be used. That means no Greater Daemons, Daemonic Beasts, or Nurglings.

Skyth, what text do you see that says those are the only daemons they use? Perhaps my printing of the chaos codex (1st) doesn't have that.

I have the first printing also.

Those are the only daemons listed under the 'daemons' rule for Alpha Legion, those are the only ones they can take, as the rules for Alpha Legion are more specific than the general rules (Thus overriding them) and under a permissive system, the rules must say that you can take them.

Also, if you read the entire passage it says that they normally cannot use daemons. They give an exception in the case of cultists summoning daemon packs though.

Since no where in that passage does it say they can take greater daemons, then they can't.

uggg, having the 1st printing got me into big trouble. It's cursed i tells ya, CURSED!

Posted By skyth on 05/04/2006 6:05 PM
I have the first printing also.

Those are the only daemons listed under the 'daemons' rule for Alpha Legion, those are the only ones they can take, as the rules for Alpha Legion are more specific than the general rules (Thus overriding them) and under a permissive system, the rules must say that you can take them.

Also, if you read the entire passage it says that they normally cannot use daemons. They give an exception in the case of cultists summoning daemon packs though.

Since no where in that passage does it say they can take greater daemons, then they can't.

I am sorry, but you are wrong.

The general idea behind a specific rule is that all the General Rules still are in effect unless the rule specifically mentions a general rule. The Alpha Legion rules make absolutley no mention of Greater Deamons, therefore the general rule must still be in effect. Useing your argueing, you would come up with that an Alpha Legion can only take Cultists and Deamons because those are the only units mentioned. You see where the problem is.

The Legion Specific Rules do not overide the General Codex rules unless they say so. So everything you have access to in the codex, unless the specific rules prohibit it, you still have access to.

The specific overrides the general because it says they don't use demons, except in the listed cases. Greater demons were not listed as one of those cases.

The specific overrides the general because it says they don't use demons, except in the listed cases.

No it doesn't.

It says they 'cannot normally rely on Daemons remaining stable for long enough for them to be useful...'

Nowhere does it actually say that they don't use Daemons.

Nor is there actually any restriction placed on Daemons. The AL rules don't say that they can't take Daemons, nor that they can only take Daemon Packs under certain situations. It simply restricts who can carry Icons.

Even if you don't take cultists, the AL rules allow you to take Daemons... you simply have no way to summon them unless you have Cultists.


I see nothing that would prevent you from taking a Greater Daemon.

Actually, it is more specific because ALL the cult army listings say which daemons they can take.

Cannot normally take daemons=No daemons can be taken.

exception given=only way to take daemons.

Since greater daemons are not listed in the exceptions, you can't take greater daemons.

Skyth, again, where does it say they can only take daemons listed? It just has a heading "daemons", which outlines that they can take certain types of daemons, makes no mention of what can't be taken, and limited icons to cultists.

It appears you are mistaken.

If you've got some rule that says "legion rules will list the only daemons allowed" then perhaps you're right. But it looks like you've made that assumption, but can't find a rule to agree with you.

The only support for Skyth I see is that the Word Bearers list does make specific mention that they can take any Deamon. But if he was right, why do the other two legions just place restrictions on which deamons you can take rather than have a list.

Bottom line - Alpha Legion can take Greater Deamons. If that upsets your fluff stomach, buy a case of "it's just a game"-bizmo and get over it.

That is why alpha legion can be nasty....who needs daemons when the grand poobah is infiltrating waiting to be summoned...ready to rip out your lungs, eat them, then proceed to use your intestines as a jump rope skipping from one unit to the next in his orgy of death... Capt K

Posted By Mahu on 05/05/2006 8:09 AM
If that upsets your fluff stomach, buy a case of "it's just a game"-bizmo and get over it.

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 05/05/2006 8:21 AM
That is why alpha legion can be nasty....who needs daemons when the grand poobah is infiltrating waiting to be summoned...ready to rip out your lungs, eat them, then proceed to use your intestines as a jump rope skipping from one unit to the next in his orgy of death... Capt K

The greater daemons' "living icon" rule does nothing in an Alpha Legion army, right? I assume, as personal icons don't work either.

So consensus is that AL greater daemons are a go? Good, cause I've got a 'thirster to convert up ...

- Boss Salvage

Thats the way I read things. The big four are definantly invited to the party. GW really needs to clean up thier wording between actual rules and fluff. I can see where some of the confusion stems from.

IIRC the 3rd ed CSM FAQ clarified this and the daemonic beasts thing as well (no GDs or beasts). Unfortunately that doesn't appear in the 4ed one. Maybe they wanted Dawn of War's Alpha Legion and the TT's Alpha Legion to have more in common

Cannot normally take daemons=No daemons can be taken.

Once again, it does NOT say that they cannot normally take Daemons. It places no restriction on Daemons at all. It simply limits who can take Icons.

Keep up the 'the rules don't say I can't ' argument, which is all you have.

Right, except in this case, Skyth, the general rules say you can.

Chaos Space Marines == Can take demons.
Alpha Legion = Chaos Space Marines - Restrictions
Restrictions != Limitation on demons taken.

Follow that?

The legion specific rules are more specific than the general rules and override them.

It's quite obvious from the reading that there are only three types of daemons you can have in Alpha Legion and those are packs, possessed, and princes.

Skyth, what text are you referring to? Can you give us quotes, because none of us sees any text that says what you claim it does.

But we could have a different printing. So how about shome quotes?

Seriously Skyth! Post some quotes to support your point!

Your primarch demands it!

Page 40, Alpha Legion (First printing, add any changes if you have a newer one)

"The Alpha Legion cannot normally rely on Daemons remaining stable long enough for them to be useful because they are so far from the Eye of Terror. When operating in a world where they have secured the belief of Chaos cults they will gladly add Daemons to the diversity of their attacks. Because of this the Alpha Legion may include Daemon Packs but only cultist units may carry icons to summon them. They may use Daemon Princes and Possessed Chaos Space Marines."

While the first line reads like fluff, it is in the special rule, and the following text supports the limitation of choosing daemons to add to the army to the ones listed, in the way listed. It only lists the ones allowed because it doesn't allow any to start with, adding it to their diverity would logically mean it was not there to start with. Additionally, only cultists may carry Icons to summon demon packs, so an Aspiring Champion would not be able to use its Icon to summon. IT then lits Daemon Princes and Possesed as aditional daemons that can be used.

Sorry, no Greater Demons.

P1 Special rules override the general: Alpha Legion lists special rules for Daemons.

P2 you may only add units to an army that you are allowed to add. The special rules for Alpha Legion gives special rules for fielding Demon Packs, and allows Daemon Princes and Possesssed.

C:Alpha Legion may only field Daemons that are Daemon Packs, Possessed and Daemon Princes.

Edit: added spaces for formatting.

It only lists the ones allowed because it doesn't allow any to start with, adding it to their diverity would logically mean it was not there to start with.

And you base this idea on what? Where in the codex does it suggest that Legion lists are only allowed those Daemon types specifically listed?

The special rules for Alpha Legion gives special rules for fielding Demon Packs,

No it doesn't. It merely limits who can take Icons.

P1 Special rules override the general: Alpha Legion lists special rules for Daemons.

These special rules cover Daemon Packs, Possessed and Princes. no mention is made of Greater Daemons... there is therefore nothing that over-rides the normal rules for taking Greater Daemons.


However, if we assume that having Special Rules for taking Daemons means that you can only take those Daemons specifically allowed in those Special Rules, would you therefore agree that Word Bearers can not in fact take ANY Daemons? After all, despite mentioning that they use 'large numbers of Daemon packs' the only actual rule given is that they may swap other slots for extra Troops slots. It doesn't specifically allow ANY of the various Daemonic units.

And you base this idea on what? Where in the codex does it suggest that Legion lists are only allowed those Daemon types specifically listed?

1.The rules are for "Daemons" in the legion entry. They refer to all daemons.
2.The rule continues: the Alpha legion "cannot rely on Daemons remaining stable enough to be useful", meaning no daemons can be fielded.
3.If they have "secured the belief of Chaos cults", if they are fielding cultists, they may use daemons.
4.The rule continues: "Because of this the Alpha Legion may include Daemon Packs"

p.Of all the daemons, only daemon packs are allowed.
They may use Daemon Princes and Possessed Chaos Space marines as normal.

These special rules cover Daemon Packs, Possessed and Princes. no mention is made of Greater Daemons... there is therefore nothing that over-rides the normal rules for taking Greater Daemons.

The rules are for all "Daemons" including Greater Daemons.

Personally, I believe Greater Daemons can be fielded because:
1. Possessed Chaos Space Marines are used as normal.
2. Greater Deamons use rules for possession to enter play.
p. Daemonhosts are "Possessed Chaos Space Marines" and are used as normal.