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Greeting all.

I've been working on my Blood Angels in earnest over the last few weeks and wanted to run my Honor Guard build by folks here and see what they think.

I will preface that this squad will be accompanying a mostly melee combat centrist character, either a Captain, or Librarian, and be part of a Baal Strike Force with emphasis on deep striking, using both Drop Pods as well as jump pack Deep Strike.


Here's the Squad:

Elite: Honor Guard - 180 Points
Sanguinary Novitiate - Chainsword, Bolt Pistol & Narthecium
Company Champion - Power Sword & Combat Shield
Veteran - Power Fist, Bolt Pistol & Storm Shield
Veteran - Chainsword, Bolt Pistol & Storm Shield
Veteran - Chainsword, Bolt Pistol & Storm Shield
Squad Wide Wargear: Power Armor, Jump Packs, Frag & Krak Grenades.

As you can see I've erred on the side of hefty defense in the form of three Storm shields, backed up by the Novitiate throwing feel no pain out to the squad.

I am trying to keep he squad as close to 175 points if I can manage it, and 180 s within reason I think.

Would love some feedback here if anyone cares to share any wisdom. Thanks in advance, and take it easy folks.

-Red__Thirst-

Mine always go with Dante and so have meltaguns and no storm shields. This seems like an okay approach but they are low on offense.

Usually my CC oriented command squad is only for casual games, consisting of 2 power swords, a fist, champion and apothecary. Otherwise its 3 melta guns. As Martel said, they make a fantastic escort for Dante, as he brings all the offensive power you really need. That build doesn't look bad at all in the grand scheme of things, though.

My gaming group rarely, if ever, brings any Lords of War, so while Dante is cool (and I do own the model) I am hesitant to run him normally.

I was tempted to slap a Storm Shield and a Meltagun on the three veterans, however that rapidly takes the squad up into the 200 point range, and my goal is to keep the unit as close to 175 points as possible.

Glad folks like the setup so far though. Hope to get a little more feedback son.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I like the loadout, you may lack some CC punch, but since you're throwing Aedus in there it should be fine, as the point of the squad is to get him into combat then I feel

 Red__Thirst wrote:
My gaming group rarely, if ever, brings any Lords of War, so while Dante is cool (and I do own the model) I am hesitant to run him normally.

I was tempted to slap a Storm Shield and a Meltagun on the three veterans, however that rapidly takes the squad up into the 200 point range, and my goal is to keep the unit as close to 175 points as possible.

Glad folks like the setup so far though. Hope to get a little more feedback son.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

But he's not a real LoW. He's a fake LoW; more of an HQ.

Martel732 wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
My gaming group rarely, if ever, brings any Lords of War, so while Dante is cool (and I do own the model) I am hesitant to run him normally.

I was tempted to slap a Storm Shield and a Meltagun on the three veterans, however that rapidly takes the squad up into the 200 point range, and my goal is to keep the unit as close to 175 points as possible.

Glad folks like the setup so far though. Hope to get a little more feedback son.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

But he's not a real LoW. He's a fake LoW; more of an HQ.

Well, at least him being an LOW makes it so you can take two Sanguinary Priests in your HQ while still getting Dante, who is still pretty good for a Warlord.

It's a slippery slope, as people in my area have some *real* Lords of war such as transcendent C'tans, and other nastiness, and if I bring a Lord of War, even if it's not a 'real' Lord of War (Which confuses me, if a model takes up the slot, it's a Lord of War, if it doesn't take up the slot, it's not.. stat line/effectiveness be damned), it opens the door up for an opponent bringing something that would be shall we say, difficult, to deal with.

It's much easier to just agree to not bring any Lords of War and go on about our way, ya know?

I am planning on building a Librarian and a Sanguiniary Priest at some point soon to have as alternative HQ choices to go with my Chaplain and Captain. Hopefully I can make that happen soon.

In the mean time, I appreciate the feedback so far. Thanks everyone, and take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I think the load out is good for a melee orientated command squad, I'd perhaps add a Captain in Arty Armour with Valours Edge and a Power Maul. This gives some excellent flexibility in terms of damage output and the Cap can tank on his 2+, LoSing anything ap2.

D

That's kind of how I field the Captain I'm using, Evil.

I have him kitted with Arty Armor, Valor's Edge, Digital Weapons and a Hand Flamer. A little more expensive but gives him a shooting attack that ignores cover and at least something to give hits on overwatch.

I may build some alternate Honor Guard marines (that can be fielded as Vanguard Veterans) with some Power Mauls and storm shields that I can swap out in the Honor Guard for larger point games. We'll see.

Off to get ready for work here. Take it easy for now folks and thanks for the feedback, Evildrcheese.

-Red__Thirst-

My go to build for a captain is similar, but I skip out on the hand flamer. Usually that weapon isn't worth it unless you are going akimbo, but Valour's Edge, digi weapons, a jump pack and artificer armor is pretty slick.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
It's a slippery slope, as people in my area have some *real* Lords of war such as transcendent C'tans, and other nastiness, and if I bring a Lord of War, even if it's not a 'real' Lord of War (Which confuses me, if a model takes up the slot, it's a Lord of War, if it doesn't take up the slot, it's not.. stat line/effectiveness be damned), it opens the door up for an opponent bringing something that would be shall we say, difficult, to deal with.

It's much easier to just agree to not bring any Lords of War and go on about our way, ya know?

I am planning on building a Librarian and a Sanguiniary Priest at some point soon to have as alternative HQ choices to go with my Chaplain and Captain. Hopefully I can make that happen soon.

In the mean time, I appreciate the feedback so far. Thanks everyone, and take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Dante's not a real lord of war because he's far inferior to most of the other LoW in the game. He's a crappy ass HQ with "LoW" stamped on his forehead. He's not a LoW, despite the part of the codex he shows up in. You should be able to bring Dante and not have the opponents resort to their LoW, because Dante is a terrible LoW.

Would you like to back up your claim with numbers or evidence, Martel? Because I STRONGLY disagree.

Dante is a phenomenal character, one that is made better by the fact that he is a LoW and therefor does not take up one of our valuable HQ slots. So let us begin by breaking him down categorically, and then compare him to other similar LoWs.

Offense: This is where Dante shines, really. Packing 6 master crafted ws6 init6 str7 ap2 attacks on the charge, he can contend with the best combat units in the game, from hive tyrants and daemon princes to shield eternal masters and even the Despoiler himself. But it's nearly impossible to take his close combat abilities in a vacuum. Is he in a unit with a chapter banner? Is he a part of a Baal or Flesh Tearers strike force? Did a librarian just cast the Quickening on him? Is he with a Sanguinary priest? Combat buffs are cheap and plentiful in the BA dex, so it's exceedingly easy to take this already great melee character and turn him into a blender. His shooting is nothing to write home about, but there are worse guns to have than a bs5 melta pistol.

Defense: Sporting artificer armor alongside his iron halo gives him solid saves, which are made even better by his combination of 4 wounds and the Eternal Warrior USR. T4 is nothing special, but not as much of a liability as it would be without EW. Again, buffs to his durability in the form of Feel no pain are easy to come by for this chapter master, shoring up some of his weaknesses to ap2 weapons that are str7 or lower.

Mobility: Now we're talking. Unique amongst special character chapter masters, ours has built in speed thanks to his jump pack, which also gives him the ability to deep strike. Yes, Logan has his sled, but has to purchase that for a significant additional cost.

Squad Buffing: Hit and run is the big win here, meaning that our golden boy is hard to lock down and can keep charging every turn. The 6in fear bubble won't always do a lot of good, but it has definitely helped me out on more than one occasion and is a solid ability.

Army Buffing: Dante luckily possesses the best warlord trait in the book, one that significantly changes the way the army functions. Being able to reliably bring in stormravens and accurately deep strike land speeders and (more importantly) jump infantry squads packed with special weapons is a pretty big boon. The extra tactical warlord trait in maelstrom games is just icing on the cake.

Cost: Clocking in at 220 points, Dante is not cheap. But compared to the rest of the "Big 5" (Dante, Azrael, Logan, Marneus and Draigo) he is the 2nd cheapest, running 5 points more than Azrael and at least 30 points behind the next cheapest. While you may say that for 80 more points you can get a wraithknight, it's nearly impossible to compare the two beyond the fact that they occupy the same slot.

So where does this put him in comparison to similar lords of war? He has marginally worse army buffing capabilities than Marny and is a little worse in combat, but is much more mobile, every bit as durable and insanely cheaper than the master of the smurfs. Azrael is again the better army booster, and also has the stronger unit powering ability in the form of his lions helm. But despite being cheaper, Azrael is less durable and killy than Dante by a long shot. Logan is basically a joke compared to D, with his only boon being his dead heat tie with him in combat, but with increased cost and almost nonexistent buffs beyond being an additional target. Draigo is the only one I would see as being better, as he is more durable, better in combat, and has a HUGE amount of built in utility in the form of Gate of Infinity. But still, you can get Dante and a scout squad for the same price as Draigo.

Hope I didn't miss anything.

A WK squishes him like a bug. That's my evidence. WKs are relevant. Dante is not. If Dante were relevant, the BA wouldn't be getting their faces pounded in on a consistent basis.

None of the things you listed Dante as doing really add up to 220. Especially because DSing jumpers is usually weak.

Dante is a crap LoW (he's an assault guy, so cute in 7th) in a crap codex backed up by crap units.

" one that significantly changes the way the army functions"

But the army still sucks even with that warlord trait. Not real helpful, Dante.

I wasn't aware how bad other marine LoW were, though. Sounds like they all suck as well except Draigo. These other Astartes LoW being horrible doesn't make Dante good. It makes Astartes LoW horrible in general.

"it's nearly impossible to compare the two beyond the fact that they occupy the same slot. "

Watch me.

I am entirely convinced that you don't actually play this game. You just regurgitate the worst opinions you can find without backing it up with anything close to a well thought out case, unlike what I just did. One would think you're capable of following my example, but I guess that assumption was too generous considering who I was talking to.

The probability of a wraithknight stomping him out of existence is around 33%. And that is IF it survives until initiative 1. Of all the WKs that I've had Dante and his unit kill, none of them have ever squashed him.

 th3maninblak wrote:
I am entirely convinced that you don't actually play this game. You just regurgitate the worst opinions you can find without backing it up with anything close to a well thought out case, unlike what I just did. One would think you're capable of following my example, but I guess that assumption was too generous considering who I was talking to.

The probability of a wraithknight stomping him out of existence is around 33%. And that is IF it survives until initiative 1. Of all the WKs that I've had Dante and his unit kill, none of them have ever squashed him.

It's BA. They don't deserve a well-thought out anything. If you can't understand why the Astartes LoW are jokes compared to a GMC, I don't know what to tell you. Whenever I field Dante, half the time he never even gets to assault because he gets shot to death. Real scary, there.

Maybe you can win with Dante. More power to you. But I guarantee your opponents are holding back in that case.

" You just regurgitate the worst opinions you can find"

I don't regurgitate anything. I come to my conclusions on my own. And all those Astartes LoW you listed are crap except Draigo.

Martel732 wrote:
Especially because DSing jumpers is usually weak.

You probably know what's strong in 7th is abusing certain mechanics. What makes Jump Infantry weak is their lack of a built-in cover save, what makes BA Death Stars weak is lack of access to Telepathy and a Psyker formation on the level of conclave.

Your refusal to abuse these mechanics, go after a FW LoW like the Typhon, or incorporate allies is really going to hurt you. Dante would be a brilliant Deathstar character with H&R, 15x DC, Astorath for rerolls, a Priest for +WS and FNP, Invisibility, or alternatively Forewarning + Sanctuary for a 3++ on everyone and Hammerhand for S7 on the charge. Meanwhile you could anchor your backfield with a Typhon spitting out S10AP1 Ignore Cover pieplates, AV14/14/14 that is immune to Melta.

Your opponents are competitive.... I respect you're trying to play it straight but against 30x Scatterbikes + WKs that's still gonna hurt!

I don't see LOW as the heaviest hitter's but as thing's that don't show up very often. That's why for me there by request only. As for the OP/subject for me it's either melta or sheilds.

DS jumpers can work, but you gotta prep the DSers landing zone first. Use tri-las preds or cyclone ml landspeeders. It doesnt hurt to jump them into an area where Dpodding marines have already landed.

Id say go Cpt over librarian. Without another librarian I havnt found psychers very useful. Maybe the staff with a lvl 2 might work. For real psychic effectiveness id say Librarius conclave. Either way get the Angels wing.

I find this unit a little underwhelming. Id agree that a cmnd sqd is usually a jump platform for special weapons. Its seems cool if your playing low points.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Especially because DSing jumpers is usually weak.

You probably know what's strong in 7th is abusing certain mechanics. What makes Jump Infantry weak is their lack of a built-in cover save, what makes BA Death Stars weak is lack of access to Telepathy and a Psyker formation on the level of conclave.

Your refusal to abuse these mechanics, go after a FW LoW like the Typhon, or incorporate allies is really going to hurt you. Dante would be a brilliant Deathstar character with H&R, 15x DC, Astorath for rerolls, a Priest for +WS and FNP, Invisibility, or alternatively Forewarning + Sanctuary for a 3++ on everyone and Hammerhand for S7 on the charge. Meanwhile you could anchor your backfield with a Typhon spitting out S10AP1 Ignore Cover pieplates, AV14/14/14 that is immune to Melta.

Your opponents are competitive.... I respect you're trying to play it straight but against 30x Scatterbikes + WKs that's still gonna hurt!

At that point, there's no point in having the blood angels at all. They aren't adding anything meaningful to the list. TWC can do it better. I understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't make dante good. It makes all the non-ba stuff good.

th3maninblak wrote:Would you like to back up your claim with numbers or evidence, Martel? Because I STRONGLY disagree.

Dante is a phenomenal character, one that is made better by the fact that he is a LoW and therefor does not take up one of our valuable HQ slots. So let us begin by breaking him down categorically, and then compare him to other similar LoWs.

Offense: This is where Dante shines, really. Packing 6 master crafted ws6 init6 str7 ap2 attacks on the charge, he can contend with the best combat units in the game, from hive tyrants and daemon princes to shield eternal masters and even the Despoiler himself. But it's nearly impossible to take his close combat abilities in a vacuum. Is he in a unit with a chapter banner? Is he a part of a Baal or Flesh Tearers strike force? Did a librarian just cast the Quickening on him? Is he with a Sanguinary priest? Combat buffs are cheap and plentiful in the BA dex, so it's exceedingly easy to take this already great melee character and turn him into a blender. His shooting is nothing to write home about, but there are worse guns to have than a bs5 melta pistol.

Defense: Sporting artificer armor alongside his iron halo gives him solid saves, which are made even better by his combination of 4 wounds and the Eternal Warrior USR. T4 is nothing special, but not as much of a liability as it would be without EW. Again, buffs to his durability in the form of Feel no pain are easy to come by for this chapter master, shoring up some of his weaknesses to ap2 weapons that are str7 or lower.

Mobility: Now we're talking. Unique amongst special character chapter masters, ours has built in speed thanks to his jump pack, which also gives him the ability to deep strike. Yes, Logan has his sled, but has to purchase that for a significant additional cost.

Squad Buffing: Hit and run is the big win here, meaning that our golden boy is hard to lock down and can keep charging every turn. The 6in fear bubble won't always do a lot of good, but it has definitely helped me out on more than one occasion and is a solid ability.

Army Buffing: Dante luckily possesses the best warlord trait in the book, one that significantly changes the way the army functions. Being able to reliably bring in stormravens and accurately deep strike land speeders and (more importantly) jump infantry squads packed with special weapons is a pretty big boon. The extra tactical warlord trait in maelstrom games is just icing on the cake.

Cost: Clocking in at 220 points, Dante is not cheap. But compared to the rest of the "Big 5" (Dante, Azrael, Logan, Marneus and Draigo) he is the 2nd cheapest, running 5 points more than Azrael and at least 30 points behind the next cheapest. While you may say that for 80 more points you can get a wraithknight, it's nearly impossible to compare the two beyond the fact that they occupy the same slot.

So where does this put him in comparison to similar lords of war? He has marginally worse army buffing capabilities than Marny and is a little worse in combat, but is much more mobile, every bit as durable and insanely cheaper than the master of the smurfs. Azrael is again the better army booster, and also has the stronger unit powering ability in the form of his lions helm. But despite being cheaper, Azrael is less durable and killy than Dante by a long shot. Logan is basically a joke compared to D, with his only boon being his dead heat tie with him in combat, but with increased cost and almost nonexistent buffs beyond being an additional target. Draigo is the only one I would see as being better, as he is more durable, better in combat, and has a HUGE amount of built in utility in the form of Gate of Infinity. But still, you can get Dante and a scout squad for the same price as Draigo.

Hope I didn't miss anything.

Martel732 wrote:A WK squishes him like a bug. That's my evidence. WKs are relevant. Dante is not. If Dante were relevant, the BA wouldn't be getting their faces pounded in on a consistent basis.

None of the things you listed Dante as doing really add up to 220. Especially because DSing jumpers is usually weak.

Dante is a crap LoW (he's an assault guy, so cute in 7th) in a crap codex backed up by crap units.

" one that significantly changes the way the army functions"

But the army still sucks even with that warlord trait. Not real helpful, Dante.

I wasn't aware how bad other marine LoW were, though. Sounds like they all suck as well except Draigo. These other Astartes LoW being horrible doesn't make Dante good. It makes Astartes LoW horrible in general.

"it's nearly impossible to compare the two beyond the fact that they occupy the same slot. "

Watch me.

You guys make a great double act, and i mean that sincerely..

Black, you make some compelling arguments as to why Dante is a decent beatstick and a good support character, but I'm afraid no matter how you spin Dante, no one can deny the truth in Martell's comments. The inherent problems with our codex are just to large to be ignored.

D

Martel732 wrote:
At that point, there's no point in having the blood angels at all. They aren't adding anything meaningful to the list. TWC can do it better. I understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't make dante good. It makes all the non-ba stuff good.

DC has weight of attacks on their side, as well as being cheaper and more numerous. So maybe they're better at applying mass rending through Misfortune, and more resistant to Stomp which counters TWC? Some things need to be tested on the table, and considering you haven't played it you're no longer the voice of experience.

Either way, if you don't try new things, embrace change and continually update your tactics you become irrelevant. You're like an old Brit general bemoaning the days when soldiers started wearing camouflage instead of the Redcoat, and fighting through trench and maneuver rather than Napoleonic formation. TBH I'm not a big fan of no-holds-barred lists but that's how you insist playing in your own group!

I mean they're nothing wrong with your POV as a game goes. But considering people can win tournaments with Orks/Daemons/CSM, your refusal to consider allies or use the mechanics which dominate 7th is a bigger problem than your codex.

Have you considered just playing by 5th edition rules?

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At that point, there's no point in having the blood angels at all. They aren't adding anything meaningful to the list. TWC can do it better. I understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't make dante good. It makes all the non-ba stuff good.

DC has weight of attacks on their side, as well as being cheaper and more numerous. So maybe they're better at applying mass rending through Misfortune, and more resistant to Stomp which counters TWC? Some things need to be tested on the table, and considering you haven't played it you're no longer the voice of experience.

Either way, if you don't try new things, embrace change and continually update your tactics you become irrelevant. You're like an old Brit general bemoaning the days when soldiers started wearing camouflage instead of the Redcoat, and fighting through trench and maneuver rather than Napoleonic formation. TBH I'm not a big fan of no-holds-barred lists but that's how you insist playing in your own group!

I mean they're nothing wrong with your POV as a game goes. But considering people can win tournaments with Orks/Daemons/CSM, your refusal to consider allies or use the mechanics which dominate 7th is a bigger problem than your codex.

Have you considered just playing by 5th edition rules?

Allies = $$, which isn't happening. Also, I still also very much doubt BA contribution to such an alliance. I don't even own the new marine codex, because there are too many models in it I don't even own. You might very well be right, though.

Martel732 wrote:
Allies = $$, which isn't happening. Also, I still also very much doubt BA contribution to such an alliance. I don't even own the new marine codex, because there are too many models in it I don't even own. You might very well be right, though.

Competitively there's three strong things right now: mechanics abuse (Invisible Centstars, Thunderdome), list+formation abuse (Gladius, Decurion, Warhost) and superheavy abuse (multiple IKs, WKs).

If you're taking an old school list against the above, you are going to have your work cut out for you, Maybe you can sneak in a few wins via Obsec, but you're swimming against the tide unfortunately.

" list+formation abuse (Gladius, Decurion, Warhost) and superheavy abuse (multiple IKs, WKs). "

The thing that makes me mad is that these two don't even require allies.

Oddly enough, BA are actually really good against battle companies. Most of those lists dont bring a meaningful amount of firepower, so they can't really blast us off the table before we get in close. Plus we're killy enough to take away their advantage of a high number of OBSEC units.

That being said, Dark Angels battle companies absolutely demolish us.

I also feel like the swap in eldar from serpents to bikes did us some good, as a lot of our units (baal preds, fragnoughts, etc) are much better vs t4 3+ bikes than they are against av12 skimmers that turn pens into glances.

While Dante himself isn't too bad, you do have to remember the competition he shares against other LoW slot dudes. Him and Death Company and a Chaplain aren't a bad deathstar to have next to your Drop Pods you're taking them for. They're still not Thunder Wolf good though.

Also, you'd think that about Eldar and you'd be wrong. The bikes have WAY more firepower, so how do you propose you get close enough to kill them?

The problem is that Eldar can hold the bikes in reserve and just show us WS and WKs on turn 1. Good Eldar players should never lose to BA.

BA vs battle company is actually a battle.

BA vs Dark Angels requires list tailoring.

So they lose out on the majority of their firepower on turn 1, and essentially give me complete freedom of movement for a couple rounds on top of leaving their units at the mercy of the dice gods? SWEET!

Maybe my luck with BA is due to my LGS using the ITC rules. But my win ratio vs eldar is really good. Also, I think we have a pretty awesome matchup against necrons.

So long as you houserule everything, Blood Angels are good? Is that the logic we're using here?

Also how in the world do you think you have a good matchup vs Necrons? Blood Angels have a hard time killing everything else without a 4+++.