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Along the lines of the 'bring bace save modifiers' thread:  Bring back differing movement rates!!! 

This 'fleet' business with the random amount of extra movement is really annoying.  If humans and orks have 6" movement, then poorly-armoured eldar and little nids should have 9".  Terminators and Slow and Purposeful could have 4", etc.

It would make the game both flow better (fewer rolls) and be more tactical, if one could have a set movement rate rather than a random fleet roll.

Also, the whole random die roll for moving through difficult terrain is annoying - why not just halve your movement rate?  Again, it would make the game much more tactical, and less reliant on die rolls.  Give Independent Characters their full move through difficult terrain, of course.

Didn't 2nd ed have decent movement rules?  Different movement rates for different troops types; half your move if you shoot, etc?  Were there any glaring abuses that became possible because of that?  ie did 3rd/4th actually fix anything with setting everyone's movement the same and adding 'fleet' to compensate?

Perhaps I just need to go out and buy some new dice...

I don't really know where I stand on this one, most modesl used to have 4" move (squats had 3", genestealers had 6") I think the reason they changed it was to make the game go faster and have people actually make it in to HTH so I think that 4" base was too little.

OTOH: having a 6" base and then modify from there might work. But then that might be too complicated for the 'kiddies'

Yeah, but IIRC, you could double your move by 'running' if you didn't shoot. So a human would be able to run 8", and a Genestealer 12". I suppose it's sort of like Fleet, in that you only get it if you don't shoot. But really, most fleeting things have no guns (stealers) or guns that might as well not be there (Eldar Guardians).

I would just rather have the predictability of the double move, than the random d6", so that planning one's tactics is more reliable. Also, it seems a lot of people take their fleet in the movement phase anyways to speed up the game, so why not incorporate it into movement formally?

Posted By Strangelooper on 05/09/2006 8:01 AM
Yeah, but IIRC, you could double your move by 'running' if you didn't shoot. So a human would be able to run 8", and a Genestealer 12". I suppose it's sort of like Fleet, in that you only get it if you don't shoot. But really, most fleeting things have no guns (stealers) or guns that might as well not be there (Eldar Guardians).

I would just rather have the predictability of the double move, than the random d6", so that planning one's tactics is more reliable. Also, it seems a lot of people take their fleet in the movement phase anyways to speed up the game, so why not incorporate it into movement formally?

i actually did think of making a topic of this running move.

My idea was to double the move or the usual six plus 3 inches but no shooting.

My opinion is that it would be better though cause at it would:

A)advantage the kiddies cause they dont need to learn these army specific rules,then cheat their way out from adding an extra inch.

B)Veterans and people who prefer thinking their battle a little more than just throwing dice.

As much as possible, movement should be very predictable.  In reality, you simply never go full speed through difficult terrain.

I like having set movement rates and allowing running to double it.  Difficult terrain halves it and acts as dangerous if you're running.

I think having to roll dice to move through terrain represents the randomness of nature and how little control we have over it. Also if everyone knew how far they were going to move every turn it would take some of the fun out of the game. I need 2 inches to assault that unit. O no I just rolled snake eyes! Those are times we never forget.

It's still silly. In a game where we roll a single die to determine whether what's supposed to be a volley of fire 'hit' or not, allowing 'nature' to restrict movement to 1/6 of normal for one squad and leave another totally unencumbered is silly.

Rough terrain slows you down. There's absolutely no way you're moving as fast as you would over open ground. If you're moving at full speed, it's obviously because you've found a clear trail. However, if you have a clear trail, surely the squad following you can make use of it too.

However, rough terrain doesn't slow you down that much. Difficult terrain generally represents low-hanging branches, bushes, and the like. Yes, it takes some time to work your way through the bushes and under the branches, but it only takes a very predictable amount of time. If one trained soldier can get through it at nearly full speed, the next trained soldier ought to be capable of the same thing. If it slows one to almost a crawl, it's going to slow up the next as well.

Maybe one roll per piece of terrain per turn, with extra dice for stuff with Move Through Cover? That way, you have an added value to units like Scouts, who can get a better result and "trail-break" for the guys behind them. I say "per turn" rather than "per game" because, in a combat zone and under fire, you won't always have the time or presence of mind to seek out that optimal path.

One advantage of the current system versus the move/run in 2nd is that if I have 10 squads on the table I never have to worry about remembering which ones "ran," which ones "walked" etc. because it's taken care of in separate phases.

Making it so that everyone can move normally (say, 4" for a Guardsman, 5" for Eldar, as it were) in the Move phase but can then choose to either double their move or shoot in the Shooting phase would solve that issue and also add some more tactical decision-making to the game. In effect it would be as if the unit pressed forward as its squad leader searches the battlefield for viable targets, and then finding none, urges his troops onward OR seeing a good opportunity, signals them to fire.

To add to Lord Sutekh's comment, it would maybe be nice to roll for each terrain feature at the beginning of the game and that is how many inches anyone gets through it.

Move phase: Move or Aim (+1 to hit)
Shoot phase: Shoot or Double up move (aim doesn't carry over to next turn)
Assault: Assault or Fall back

Terminators/ Obliterators 5"
Humans/ Marines/ Tyrandis 6"
Eldar/ fast attack/ shooty gaunts 8"
Haumagaunt + Stealers 10"

That'd add some imediacy to the game, me thinks!

Must admit I always quite liked the D6 rolls for terrain moves but if it were to change... as above ^

26" charge range steelers, Me thinkist not.

It would have the Marines crapping their pants though... and thats only a good thing.

Terminators/ Obliterators 4"
Humans/Marines 5"
Eldar/ fast attack/ gaunt + Stealers/ Tyrandis 6"

Or just leave all at 6" but with those manouver options!

I must say that I'm a fan of the different movement rates. The only thing to keep in mind with the transition between second and 3rd/4th edition is that the assault move was the first thing you did in a turn. So there was no running if you were assaulting. Something like that would have to be carried over to this new version to keep things from moveing at their extended movement rate, running (or fleeting or whatever) and then assaulting at the extended move rate again. I like the fact that the base move is now 6 inches so that things can actualy get somewhere over the course of a game so I wouldn't make any rates slower than that, but bumping some things up to 7, or 8 or even 9 might not be too out of place. That would give the fastest things in the game a max charge of 18 inches.

Hmmm...what about just changing the order of the phases:

IDEA #1
1) Shoot
2) Assault
3) Move

This way you can shoot or move in the shooting phase and assault if anyone is near. Anything that didn't assault, can then move in the last phase.

This would prevent the move+move+assault. Your options would be:
1)Move + Assault
2)Move + Move
3)Shoot + Assault
4)Shoot + Move

It would change the game a lot though - no maneuvering before shooting. Perhaps that's too harsh.

So.....
IDEA # 2: As above, allowing shooting in either (but not both) movement phases.
1) Move or Shoot
2) Assault
3) Move, Shoot (unless Shot in (1)), or Consolidate.

So the options for a unit would be:
A) Run (double move)
B) Move then Shoot
C) Move then Assault
D) Shoot then Move
E) Shoot then Assault (if enemy is dumb enough to land within 6" on his own turn)

This would definitely require a set of Shot, Moved and Assaulted counters to keep track of everything. But hey, that could be done with Blue, White and Red poker chips.

This would make vehicles easy to work with as well - they can either double-move (not shooting) or move-shoot, or shoot-move.

I think this would add a lot of tactical versatility to the game. Anyone find any gaping flaws that I haven't thought of?

Am i guessing that some weopons can't be used to shoot and then assault (ie only pistols and Assault weopons) or is there a change in the weopon mechanics too.

Oh i realised the aim thing i mensioned earlier was a bit out of place, cos you get extra range when you stand still anyway; forget i said +1 to hit!

The base movement rate for most infantry would still have to be about 6" or you'll just make shooty armies even MORE powerful than they are now. As someone who plays an assault army that has to slog it most of the time, I can already tell you how much "the walk of shame" sucks ass.

It'd be nice to see Orks get a movement rate of 7 or 8" to cope with all the shooting we take, but it'd radically alter the game on a level where points would have to be reconfigured around every army.

What to do about jump troops? Vechiles? Bikes? You're talking about some rediculous movement rates here.

Under my IDEA#2:

Vehicles can be kept the same - if they move twice, they can't shoot. So it's basically the same as now - move 6" and shoot, or move 12". Fast vehicles can move 12" and shoot, or move 24". Since basic infantry can now keep up with vehicles though, perhaps the base rate of vehicles would need to be increased? Maybe to 8" or 9"? I don't see the need to increase fast vehicles rate though.

Bikes would be the same as now - instead of special turbo-boost rules, they can just move twice (no shooting) to get the same distance. The 'turbo-boost' would just give them the invulnerable save if they move at least 18".

Jump infantry...hmmm. Still, if you're jumping 24", you can't shoot or assault, so it's not that bad. Maybe add in a rule for jump infantry that if they use their jets for 2 moves, they have to take dangerous terrain tests (from arcing so high, or from jets blowing up, whatever). They could still jump 12" and walk 6" or vice versa without a test.

Mostly I like the change in phases as it makes the game more tactical. You get the option of popping off a shot and then moving behind cover - 'tactical retreats'. Yes, this would be tough on assault armies - but the assault armies just got double their movement as long as they don't feel the need to shoot. So I don't think that assault armies are harmed by the change in phases.

The weapon type rules would have to be updated: If heavy weapons are fired by infantry, no movement at all; if you assault, no rapid-firing in either move/shoot phase etc.

I wonder about Assault weapons and pistols though, as they get kind of nerfed (no move-shoot-assault).

Also, should there be something to be gained by a unit that only shoots and doesn't move (ie the Aiming bonus)? Maybe +1BS for sitting still in the first move/shoot phase, and shooting in the second one.

There shouldn't be a bonus for shooting first and *then* sitting still though - that would allow you to move screening vehicles from in front of your HW squad, shoot with a bonus, and then move the vehicle *back* to screen them in the second phase - dirty. If you do that, no bonus. Maybe even require you to nominate the target you're aiming at, at the START of the first phase (ie it has to be in LOS before you move anything).

Getting more and more complicated...uh oh.