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I'm about to start collecting and Eldar force and wouldn't mind having some Howling Banshees to bolster my force's melee capabilities. Also, I quite like the look of the models.

So, I would like it if someone could tell me:
- Are Howling Banshees (pts) cost effective
- Are they actually as good in melee as they're hyped to be
- If you were to get some, how should they be played (e.g in a Wave Serpent, upgrades for the Exarch, which units they should target etc.)

Any and all help / advice will be HUGELY appreciated, and thank you in advance

My understanding is that they're one of the worse options in the codex.

Denying overwatch always sounded like a pretty amazing special rule to me, though.

 Robin5t wrote:
My understanding is that they're one of the worse options in the codex.

Denying overwatch always sounded like a pretty amazing special rule to me, though.

Why is this though, the only other melee specialized unit would be the striking scorpions (not including any HQ's or Avatar of Khaine xD), are the scorpions seriously that much better?

They're not the best thing in the game so Eldar players generally don't use them.

The problem with them in a pure Eldar force is they have no open topped transport to zip them across the board. Definitely add Jain Zar if they're going to be on foot.

the_scotsman wrote:
They're not the best thing in the game so Eldar players generally don't use them.

The problem with them in a pure Eldar force is they have no open topped transport to zip them across the board. Definitely add Jain Zar if they're going to be on foot.

Awesome, thanks a bunch

 DarkShade1999 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
They're not the best thing in the game so Eldar players generally don't use them.

The problem with them in a pure Eldar force is they have no open topped transport to zip them across the board. Definitely add Jain Zar if they're going to be on foot.

Awesome, thanks a bunch

This is because Jain's set Warlord Trait stacks with the Acrobatic bonus, so if you have Jain (as your Warlord) in a unit of Banshees all from a Warhost Detachment, that's a guaranteed 12" run every turn, countering their normal problem (lack of an Assault Vehicle transport).

I've been using 20 of them in my list for a few months now, just because they are great models. I've found them to be not quite as bad as people make them out to be.


Perks
They have a few perks.
* They are wicked fast, with a 15" run on turn one if you are running the pale court formation.
* They have a reliable 10" (85%) charge with the 3" extra charge range. There is even a 39.81% of a 13" charge!
* The fear can be handy to help prevent incoming damage from armies that are effected by fear. The exarch helps with this.
* They have 'offensive grenades'.
* They are cheap (for aspect warriors)

Uses
I've used them to assault weaker units. In my last game with them, I used them to assault an IG CCS that had 4 flamers. My opponent was rather surprised when I made a 10" charge and ignored his "Wall of Death". This past weekend my opponent was summoning flamers of tzeentch, and I kept assaulting them with banshees, keeping him from flaming my units!

I've used them to negate overwatch for my wraithknight. Lets say I want to assault that squad of grav cents with the wraithknight. I will assault with a banshee to negate the overwatch and then hit them with the wraithknight. This only works if the banshees make it in, as they can still overwatch the next if the initial charge was failed.
You only need 1 banshee to do this, so even of most of the squad is wiped they still fill this role! I've used one banshee to let my wraithknight avoid a wave of grav multiple times.

I've used them (with the executioner exarch) to assault light vehicles or war walkers. It's not ideal compared to spiders or hawks, but I've ticked off hull points before and killed eldar war walkers with the exarch.

I've used them for their shuriken pistols. Sure, it's not an ideal situation, but I've used the pistols to shoot at (and wound) wraithknights before. A lot of people forget the pistols, which are still half a guardian worth of firepower per model.

I've also used them to tie up light units such as Stealthsuits. Having them not shoot at my hawks, spiders, or avengers for a round or two lets me focus on the rest of their army. With their range, you can really surprise your opponent at how far they can reach out and touch someone.

Avatar
I've also been running an avatar lately with them, mostly because it came out really nicely when painted. I've found that Banshees combo very well with an avatar. Furious charge and rage are very nice ways to increase the amount of damage banshees can put out.


Drawbacks
They cannot punch through an opponent's deathstar.

They are often assaulted by wraithknights or walkers, forcing me to use "Our Weapons are Useless" and auto break from the combat, which forces a regroup. At least they can run 9" after regrouping.

They are always shot first. Maybe it's because they are charging headfirst at the enemy, maybe it's because they look more scary than they are. I've had top tier players shoot at them before my avengers -- which is generally what I want.

Overall
I doubt I'll keep them for the long term in competitive tournaments. I'm building another unit of spiders now and I'll will swap them out -- as the spiders are just to good to pass up.
They are beautiful models that turned out really well when painted, and I use them for my league games or less competitive games.

MathHammer
Charge Chance Ranges with and Without Fleet.

This is because Jain's set Warlord Trait stacks with the Acrobatic bonus, so if you have Jain (as your Warlord) in a unit of Banshees all from a Warhost Detachment, that's a guaranteed 12" run every turn, countering their normal problem (lack of an Assault Vehicle transport).

I've not found this to be a requirement. I've been using the Pale Court core choice in the Warhost formation that gives me a guaranteed 6" run, and found that to work. There has yet to be a game where they were not in assault by turn two.
- 15" move turn one
- 6" move turn two
- 10" assault turn two
Giving a 31" range from the ladies started. It's hard to stay out of range of that. An extra 3" run won't do that much. I would rather take the avatar.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've been using the Pale Host formation that gives me a guaranteed 6" run,

There's no Pale Court option that modifies running.

The Warhost bonus isn't tied to a formation, but to the detachment.

There's no such thing as a Pale Host formation.

What are you actually talking about?

Banshees got nerfed in the last few editions, first by losing the ability to assault out of Wave Serpents (5th edition) and then by losing their "ignore all armor" power weapons in exchange for AP3 Power Swords and no longer being allowed to run and charge.

The thing is, on paper, they aren't /bad/ by any stretch, put them in any other army and they'd be good, or at the very least decent.

But the slot they're in competes with Wraithguards, who hold D-strength guns, Fire Dragons who can reliably pop transports, and most damning of all Striking Scorpions.

The Scorpions aren't powerful either by any stretch (especially since they compete with the same two choices above), but due to the Banshee's power weapons being downgraded to AP3, the Scorpions can now do the same job as Banshees while still being able to do their old jobs of taking on hordes. Before, Banshees took on the TEQs while the Scorpions took on hordes, since Banshees had volume of attack AND ignored armor. Scorpions just had volume of attacks going for them. With Banshees no longer being able to take down 2+ armor, Scorpions are suddenly better now, since the higher strength and mandiblasters means they'll force more armor saves than the Banshees will.

A good way to use them though is to ally in Dark Eldar and buy a few empty Raiders. Fragile yes, but they can ferry the banshees to their targets extremely fast and allow them to charge out of the transport due to being open topped.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There's no such thing as a Pale Host formation.

What are you actually talking about?

Thanks for the question!
Doom of Mymeara, page 178. Pale Court. It provides a "Core Choice" for the Eldar Warhost formation, which in turn gives "Matchless Agility".
I've edited the most to make it more clear so it won't confuse people.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've used them to negate overwatch for my wraithknight. Lets say I want to assault that squad of grav cents with the wraithknight. I will assault with a banshee to negate the overwatch and then hit them with the wraithknight. This only works if the banshees make it in, as they can still overwatch the next if the initial charge was failed.
You only need 1 banshee to do this, so even of most of the squad is wiped they still fill this role! I've used one banshee to let my wraithknight avoid a wave of grav multiple times.

Centurions are Slow and Purposeful, meaning they cannot overwatch anyway. Holds true for other units (Grav Bikers, etc.). Fair point about Jain.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
But the slot they're in competes with Wraithguards, who hold D-strength guns, Fire Dragons who can reliably pop transports, and most damning of all Striking Scorpions.

The Scorpions aren't powerful either by any stretch (especially since they compete with the same two choices above), but due to the Banshee's power weapons being downgraded to AP3, the Scorpions can now do the same job as Banshees while still being able to do their old jobs of taking on hordes. Before, Banshees took on the TEQs while the Scorpions took on hordes, since Banshees had volume of attack AND ignored armor. Scorpions just had volume of attacks going for them. With Banshees no longer being able to take down 2+ armor, Scorpions are suddenly better now, since the higher strength and mandiblasters means they'll force more armor saves than the Banshees will.

A good way to use them though is to ally in Dark Eldar and buy a few empty Raiders. Fragile yes, but they can ferry the banshees to their targets extremely fast and allow them to charge out of the transport due to being open topped.

Since you should be taking them in an Aspect Host, the concept of 'competing for slots' is not longer really used.

There are also a lot less 2+ armor units in the game today. Sure, you might find the occasional terminator list, but the vast majority of armies are 3+ or worse. I've never had a problem finding targets for my banshees -- though I have had to be more selective by avoiding the terminators.

They also don't need a venom. I know it's a long read, but if you look at my post, you can see how they can get into assault on turn two regardless of a transport. They are extremely fast now.

 Quanar wrote:
Holds true for other units (Grav Bikers, etc.). Fair point about Jain.

The game in question was with grav bikers hit by prescience. My opponent did not think my one exarch left 14" away would be able to deny the overwatch. He was a bit surprised when my wounded wraithknight came in and beat face.

I'm assuming he means he's using the pale court aspect-lord shrine to get 3 units of banshees, forming the core of a warhost.

As a warhost, the banshees will auto run 6". Combined with moving 6" and their +3" to run/charge from acrobatic, they'll move 15" turn 1.

 Rypher wrote:
I'm assuming he means he's using the pale court aspect-lord shrine to get 3 units of banshees, forming the core of a warhost.

As a warhost, the banshees will auto run 6". Combined with moving 6" and their +3" to run/charge from acrobatic, they'll move 15" turn 1.

Yes.
Though I have been taking them as part of an aspect host with avengers in the core. This is due to the ITC rules not allowing me to take 3 aspect hosts in an army.

Personally I think Striking scorpions are a much better assault unit. They have the best exarch - come stock with str4 and they have a safe way to deploy and move up the feild with infiltrate and move through cover. Their phoenix lord is also amazing. 3+ save makes them much more resilient in CC.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Personally I think Striking scorpions are a much better assault unit. They have the best exarch - come stock with str4 and they have a safe way to deploy and move up the feild with infiltrate and move through cover. Their phoenix lord is also amazing. 3+ save makes them much more resilient in CC.

Scorpions have a number of advantages. 3+ armor save. Exarch with I6 STR 6, AP2 weapon. STR 4 weapon. Stealth. Stalker. Mandiblasters.
There is a lot to love, even at 17 points a model.

If you want to send me 20, I'll be happy to play with them for a few months and give you a writeup on their uses and effectivness

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Personally I think Striking scorpions are a much better assault unit. They have the best exarch - come stock with str4 and they have a safe way to deploy and move up the feild with infiltrate and move through cover. Their phoenix lord is also amazing. 3+ save makes them much more resilient in CC.

Scorpions have a number of advantages. 3+ armor save. Exarch with I6 STR 6, AP2 weapon. STR 4 weapon. Stealth. Stalker. Mandiblasters.
There is a lot to love, even at 17 points a model.

If you want to send me 20, I'll be happy to play with them for a few months and give you a writeup on their uses and effectivness

I only have 10 and you can't have them .

My experience has been that Banshees are ok to good when used by themselves and pretty decent when buffed by the Avatar. But if you want competitiveness over anything else I would say go with Scorpions for your cc unit.

pm713 wrote:
But if you want competitiveness over anything else I would say go with Scorpions for your cc unit.

If you want competitiveness, go with Wraithknights as your CC unit. They're basically the only thing in the codex that isn't shameful at assault.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Personally I think Striking scorpions are a much better assault unit. They have the best exarch - come stock with str4 and they have a safe way to deploy and move up the feild with infiltrate and move through cover. Their phoenix lord is also amazing. 3+ save makes them much more resilient in CC.

Add Jain Zar to that Exarch and it can get really scary in melee.

I have always liked them. a unit full of power weapons has its own niche, even if marines kill them as easily as they kill marines. Also anythin capable of threatening the emperor's finest must be priced more than one.

Ap3 was a nasty nerf as it meant they could not longer can open terminators, which was their sweet spot. I liked them anyway even though they continued to be weak.

Now however the Banshee mask has come into its own. Ignoring overwatch is BIG especailly when facing Tau. Howling Banshees are now back on the menu for competitive games, if only for tailored lists facing Tau.

Tau have ways of getting overwatch at full BS. Banshee mask eliminates overwatch altogether. Also Tau are wimpy in close combat but have good armour saves, but mostly 4+ and 3+. these are good targets for Howling Banshees.
Howling Banshees therefore have utility as Tau killers and are frankly very good at that role. Not broken good like scatterbikes ad wraithknights and troops with strength D, but very good nonetheless.

The Howling Banshee exarch was always good, in every edition, when given an executioner, and a minimum squad as an exarch delivery system has never been a bad idea.

Banshees aren't that bad. But Striking Scorpions are just better.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Banshees aren't that bad. But Striking Scorpions are just better.

Yup that is it.

Scorpions get an Extra Attack with Mandiblasters that wounds on 4 regardless of toughness.
Scorpions will wound on 4 instead of 5.
Exarch will strike at S6 AP2 instead of 5 AP2
Better armor
Stealth and Shrouded.

Banshees are awesome for charging a huge IG gunline and other T3 models but versus your average marine or bike army they will struggle.

Transport is always an issue.

At the risk of making Eldar more OP the saving grace of the Banshees would be able to assault AFTER running kinda like the Harlequins already do OR have Acrobatics treat every transport as an assault vehicule allowing them to assault out of Eldar transport.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Banshees aren't that bad. But Striking Scorpions are just better.

Yup that is it.

Scorpions get an Extra Attack with Mandiblasters that wounds on 4 regardless of toughness.
Scorpions will wound on 4 instead of 5.
Exarch will strike at S6 AP2 instead of 5 AP2
Better armor
Stealth and Shrouded.

Banshees are awesome for charging a huge IG gunline and other T3 models but versus your average marine or bike army they will struggle.

Transport is always an issue.

At the risk of making Eldar more OP the saving grace of the Banshees would be able to assault AFTER running kinda like the Harlequins already do OR have Acrobatics treat every transport as an assault vehicule allowing them to assault out of Eldar transport.

I like your ideas about acrobat.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Banshees aren't that bad. But Striking Scorpions are just better.

Yup that is it.

Scorpions get an Extra Attack with Mandiblasters that wounds on 4 regardless of toughness.
Scorpions will wound on 4 instead of 5.
Exarch will strike at S6 AP2 instead of 5 AP2
Better armor
Stealth and Shrouded.

Banshees are awesome for charging a huge IG gunline and other T3 models but versus your average marine or bike army they will struggle.

Transport is always an issue.

At the risk of making Eldar more OP the saving grace of the Banshees would be able to assault AFTER running kinda like the Harlequins already do OR have Acrobatics treat every transport as an assault vehicule allowing them to assault out of Eldar transport.

Charging after a run would be extremely broken for the Banshees. Considering their extreme speed when running, it would make almost nothing safe from a first turn charge, which combined with no overwatch, high initiative and power weapons would make for a completely unfun fight.

6" move
9" run,
5-15" charge range, with reroll
Thats a 30" max threat range, with a reliable 25"
You can even add 3 more inches to that with Jain Zar.

there are better units which is the problem with the banshees as well as scorpions and war walkers are rather overcosted but this being said you could easily just bring other units to cover for them so it scarcely matter; eldar sadly have the luxury of being that good

Fragile wrote:
Charging after a run would be extremely broken for the Banshees. Considering their extreme speed when running, it would make almost nothing safe from a first turn charge, which combined with no overwatch, high initiative and power weapons would make for a completely unfun fight.

6" move
9" run,
5-15" charge range, with reroll
Thats a 30" max threat range, with a reliable 25"
You can even add 3 more inches to that with Jain Zar.

I've ran banshees a lot in the past 3 months, 20 of them in my lists for dozens of games, including tournaments.

They have never have had a 'broken assault'. I've had them lose to guard before. They are good for tying up units. They are good for grinding down other units.
They are good for absorbing overwatch for your WK or avatar. They are not a 'killer assault unit'.

Try it some time. Take DE allies and throw an apsect host with +1 ws banshees in some venoms. Cheap units that ruin a lot of units days in a single turn. It won't work as well as some builds but at least you wont get bitched at for playing eldar...You are using howling banshees for crying out loud.