NoPoet wrote:Hi everyone. I've just been reading through Codex Chaos Daemons and 4DChan's strategy guide. I can't help noticing that a lot of the powers, abilities and equipment for Tzeentch daemons seem biased towards getting them in close combat. For example, the Changeling, a devious, super-intelligent trickster, is represented in the game as a potential close combat monster (due to swapping stats).
On top of this, the warpflame rules seem a bit stupid, and the psychic discipline of Tzeentch appears to suck horribly, almost totally lacking in character and being nothing but shooting attacks which can actually benefit your opponent!
Does anyone actually use Tzeentch daemons? Do you use them in close combat (foregoing Khorne and Slaanesh daemons who are really far better in assault)? Is there any point taking them at all? I have similar problems with Tzeentch-dedicated
CSMs: they're not very interesting and their psychic discipline looks crap.
I've played Tzeentch Daemons as my main army ever since Daemons became their very own codex. Now granted, I don't play for Tournaments and/or crushing opponents as efficiently as possible, but under our current rules, I've had plenty of fun & success with;
- Lord of Change.
He's the ultimate close combat monster for Tzeentch, and indeed, is one of the best punchy
GD's in general thanks to his available options! 3 levels of Divination gives him a solid shot at landing the Precognition power, which allows him to re-roll everything. At worst, he gets Prescience which he can cast to give himself re-rolls to-hit, while also potentially picking up other helpful powers such as Misfortune and/or giving things like your Exalted Flamer/chariot the ability to ignore cover with their shooting.
Add in a pair of Greater Rewards for added protection, and he can readily last the entire game.
- Tzheralds.
Your basic heavy lifters who make the army work. These guys bring an ungodly number of additional psyker levels, (each one can be upgraded to Lv.3!), and a decent selection of schools between the newly updated Tzeentch table, Divination and Malefic.
Divination is your super support lore, Tzeentch is all about being blasty, and Malefic is for Cursed Earth + summoning more Daemons.
Their Loci are interesting to say the least... Exalted Locus of Conjuration is easily the best choice, adding +1S to any Witchfires they cast, (including the two Malefic ones!). This can make the at first glance, terrible Tzeentch powers quite a bit better - S6 Flickering Fire is deadly for example.
Locus of Change is purely for fun. However, it never fails to amuse when you suddenly have a blob of S5/6 Horrors punching apart battle tanks, or ripping apart a Dreadnought, or laying a beat down on some Marines!
Locus of Transmogrification is all about trying to make your opponent pay for assaulting your Horrors, however the additional hits just don't cut it in a game where the basic standard is T4/3+.
- Flamers.
Yes, they were nerfed heavily and deservedly so... However, they still each come with a template weapon, and even
MEQ's can't stand up to being hit by 3-5+ templates all at once.
Just keep them away from things with 2+ saves and/or T5+ and/or multi-wound models, and they'll do fine.
A large squad of 9 also looks rather imposing to boot, and at this point, is even capable of threatening things like T5 bikers. Hit their target unit with Misfortune, and it's typically lights out.
- Exalted Flamers.
a newer unit, added through
WD and now CotW campaign book. These guys can work decently enough as a lone 'gun turret' type emplacement, or else sitting back in cover in a unit of Horrors. You just don't ever want to run 1 or 2 on their own, as due to the Warpflame rule, you need other shooters present so you can focus fire onto a single target and either wipe it out, or cripple it.
- Horrors.
The backbone of the army. While 7th edition has really kicked these poor guys in the 'nads, they still have their uses as Warp Charge batteries and objective campers. They can potentially now land the
Str.D power, which gives them some use in the Psychic phase, though their basic Flickering Fire power is still a good clean-up tool... If say you've got an enemy unit that's been whittled down to its last 2-4 members, or else are facing extreme
MSU, then Flickering Fire is game for nuking those small remnants.
On the other hand, if you go Malefic, then Horrors make excellent summoning batteries, as the Perils rules are kinder on units as compared to your regular Psyker Characters. If they luck into the Herald summoning power, then they can happily sacrifice themselves and spawn an almost unending number of additional Tzheralds! (or for some hilarity, a Slaanesh Herald on Seeker Chariot!)
- Screamers.
They're 'Jetbike' unit type, so they're amazing to begin with thanks to the favourable core rules. They're a decent annoyance unit with their Slash attacks, and in combat, they can trade their regular attacks to instead each get a single S5/ap2 Armourbane attack, giving them lots of utility.
If you really want to cheese them out to no end, then of course, there's the infamous 'Screamerstar', in which you add 2-3 Tzheralds on Disc to the unit, give one of them the Grimoire of True Names, and throw all your psychic levels into Malefic hoping for Cursed Earth, and build the unit a 2++ re-rollable invuln save.
- Burning Chariots.
Now that they work, these things are great! Fast, and highly maneuverable thanks to being Skimmers, they can either nuke a unit of infantry with their ap3 template, or aim to pop off some shots into side/rear armour with D3 S9/ap2 shots.
And they're fairly cheap too! only problem is they compete for spots alongside Soul Grinders and *Daemon Princes in the Heavy section...
- Soul Grinder.
The single best Heavy Support slot available to Daemons. With a Tzeentch army and it's ready access to Prescience, the Warp gaze shot suddenly becomes usable as a possible ranged anti-tank option (an area where Daemons are very weak). However, the template or S8/ap3 pie-plate are still the 'safer' options.
Grinders also provide some added close combat power to Tzeentchian armies.
- Daemon Prince.
If you take a Lord of Change, then these guys shift to the Heavy section. Overall though, like their
CSM counterparts, these guys are just too pts-heavy to be hugely competitive...
Still, Tzeentch can get some fun utility out of them, as they bring access to Telepathy, (Psy Shriek and/or Invis), and can make stunning use of the Mutating Warpblade weapon, which can turn enemy characters or
MC's unto Chaos Spawn should they lose their last wound to the weapon!
Curse of the Wulfen has also added new Warlord Traits & Relics, as well as an expanded psychic lore!
Of the relics, the Paradox is essentially a guaranteed 'free' WC3 casting per Psychic phase. Ideal for anyone who's thinking of acting as a summon battery or else intending to spam the new
Str.D power.
The Impossible Robes are an interesting tool for protecting a character... it gives the wearer a 3++ save, however, if the wearer ever fails their save then there's a chance they could outright be removed from the table should they then fail a
Ld test. Still, it's a beastly item on say a
LoC.
The Oracular Dais is a Disc that allows a single unit in reserve to auto-pass their reserve roll, which can also be used to auto-trigger the effects of an Instrument of Chaos as an added bonus!
The Everstave is interesting, and not a bad idea for a Chariot Tzherald or
LoC, as it gives them a decent ap3 template attack. (no Torrent though)
The new 'Daemoncurion' detachment - the Daemonic Incursion is a bit of a double edged sword... On the one hand, it's innate bonuses are outstanding; always control objectives, even without a unit within 3" (until an enemy scoring unit takes it back), AND, add/subtract 1 when rolling on the Warpstorm table, AND, can choose to re-roll any Daemonic Instability tests.
That's right up there with Necrons in terms of usefulness, and just slightly behind the 'free' transports for a Gladius.
Unfortunately Tzeentch got screwed on our formations...
The Warpflame Host isn't as bad is it initially looks. You must take 1 Tzherald + 9!! units chosen from Horrors/Flamers/Exalted Flamers in any combination. The bonus being that the Tzherald's Locus ability (if you buy him one) gets handed out to every unit from the formation within 12" of him, AND, all Warpflame based attacks from models in the formation gain +1S.
Thus, you can for example, take the Locus of Conjuration, and suddenly add +2S to your Flickering Fire power - S7 basic shooting is pants on head amazing!!
The 'tax' of the formation is greatly lowered by the fact you can fill out the requirements with cheap Exalted Flamers & min-sized Flamer squads, making it actually a very solid
MSU styled formation that can hit extremely hard with its shooting. (each Flamer for example goes from throwing out an ap4 Flamer shot, to suddenly an entire unit of Heavy flamers!)
The wheels falls off when it comes to the Auxiliary formation, the Burning Skyhost... Yet again, you require 1 Tzherald who must this time take either a Disc or Burning Chariot, and 9!! units of either Screamers and/or Burning Chariots!
The bonus? Burning Chariots gain D3 S5/ap4 slashing attacks that work similar to the Screamer attacks. The awful? Screamers slashing attacks suddenly gain the Warpflame rule, making them borderline unusable.
All's not lost if you want mono-Tzeentch however through a Daemoncurion... You can take either a single unit of Furies (and buy them the Daemon of Tzeentch rule) or else take the Soul Grinder formation as your mandatory Auxiliary formation.
You just likely will never, ever be able to play Screamers/Burning Chariots, unless you add in a small
CAD and that way, avoid the horrible rules of the Burning Skyhost... Which still isn't a terrible idea anyways, since the Daemoncurion is extremely light on Heralds to begin with, which is bad for Tzeentch! Bringing in a
CAD allows for up to 4 Herald per
HQ slot, so you can fill out your
WC pool.
2500 pts
1850 pts
