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Title says it all really - which book would you need to get to play renegades and heretics. I see there are two on the forgeworld webstore - IMPERIAL ARMOUR VOLUME THIRTEEN - WAR MACHINES OF THE LOST AND THE DAMNED and IMPERIAL ARMOUR - THE SIEGE OF VRAKS.

The two armies I like the sound of most are 'the purge' detachment and the 'unending host'. If anyone who has either book could advise I'd be grateful!

Those detachments are in the Siege of Vraks.

IA13 has the regular version.

I'd buy IA13. It has (I think) ALL the Renegade units, whereas Vraks has some missing by design (and some by amateur editing mistakes).

Then for the most part, you'd just need to memorize/screenshot/whatever the few differences, like Ordnance Tyrant rules and the 2 formations. I think that's about it.

In order to play The Purge or the Unending Host Detachment at itc or major events you need to purchase a copy of Imperial Armor : Siege of Vraks.

Long story short. I got kicked out of a store for not having the physcial rule book. I came on here poking around if there was a alternative or compromise such as using a digital pdf copy or purchasing the book keeping it shrink wrap in order to resell and using print out copie and got prettty much all the trolls on dakka to jump down my throat accusing me of cheating by altering the rules.

Grief wrote:
In order to play The Purge or the Unending Host Detachment at itc or major events you need to purchase a copy of Imperial Armor : Siege of Vraks.

Long story short. I got kicked out of a store for not having the physcial rule book. I came on here poking around if there was a alternative or compromise such as using a digital pdf copy or purchasing the book keeping it shrink wrap in order to resell and using print out copie and got prettty much all the trolls on dakka to jump down my throat accusing me of cheating by altering the rules.

Generally you need to have rules on hand to use them / prove that you're not cheating. That's not really an asinine thing to ask.

You're the one choosing to use lists from the luxury-luxury goods which are Forgeworld, no one's making you. Expecting you to show up with the actual rules en toe is far from unreasonable and douchy.

That being said, if you don't game at GW and make friends with the regulars you play with, I doubt they'll care. This has been my experience, at any rate.

Even in the GW store we tend to just take your word for it when you're describing what your army does. Consult the BRB when necessary, but that's it. Rules mistakes get made all the time but I'd rather spend more time rolling dice and less time waiting for someone to flip through their book every time they're not sure about something.

The point about tourneys is a good one, though.

 morganfreeman wrote:

Grief wrote:
In order to play The Purge or the Unending Host Detachment at itc or major events you need to purchase a copy of Imperial Armor : Siege of Vraks.

Long story short. I got kicked out of a store for not having the physcial rule book. I came on here poking around if there was a alternative or compromise such as using a digital pdf copy or purchasing the book keeping it shrink wrap in order to resell and using print out copie and got prettty much all the trolls on dakka to jump down my throat accusing me of cheating by altering the rules.

Generally you need to have rules on hand to use them / prove that you're not cheating. That's not really an asinine thing to ask.

You're the one choosing to use lists from the luxury-luxury goods which are Forgeworld, no one's making you. Expecting you to show up with the actual rules en toe is far from unreasonable and douchy.

FORGE WORLD? Not a single model I own came from Forge World. I bought all my cultists from people who did not want them on ebay in order to make my Unending Host. So I have managed to own a, "Forge World," army and not spend FORGE WORLD price.

And this whole chosing my army is my fault? How is that my fault when people like you enable GW and FW to price gouge when you happily open your wallet to them? GW and FW knows you will buy regardless of price because you, "want to support the game and the company to enrich the gaming and hobby community," but in reality you are just lining the investor's pockets. I have no problem with GW and FW being an international corporate business, I have a huge problem with them LYING to us that they are just a company that makes miniatures first and foremost and not caring about the game mechanics and rules balancing. The GAME drives the sales! Why would I even collect 200 cultists? When its the same 20 models repeated 10 times. BECAUSE I want to play a GAME, with the 200 cultists not just collect and paint them. I am spending the least amount of time painting them.

Its the just the, "Rule Book," that is from FW and cost over $100 because it is 280+ pages with just 45 pages of rules while the rest is another army called Death Korps of Krieg which I am personally not interested in because they represent Nazi.

I am going to have to buy the book. There is no buts or ands about it. I am going to have to begrudingly give them my money so I can play and put this past me. Then I am going to show the book to my opponent to verify the rules and that I am not cheating. At least once I do that, I can now call people out for not having their rule book/codex even if its a pdf. I can do it, but I really dont care to do so.

Grief wrote:

Spoiler:

 morganfreeman wrote:

Grief wrote:
In order to play The Purge or the Unending Host Detachment at itc or major events you need to purchase a copy of Imperial Armor : Siege of Vraks.

Long story short. I got kicked out of a store for not having the physcial rule book. I came on here poking around if there was a alternative or compromise such as using a digital pdf copy or purchasing the book keeping it shrink wrap in order to resell and using print out copie and got prettty much all the trolls on dakka to jump down my throat accusing me of cheating by altering the rules.

Generally you need to have rules on hand to use them / prove that you're not cheating. That's not really an asinine thing to ask.

You're the one choosing to use lists from the luxury-luxury goods which are Forgeworld, no one's making you. Expecting you to show up with the actual rules en toe is far from unreasonable and douchy.

FORGE WORLD? Not a single model I own came from Forge World. I bought all my cultists from people who did not want them on ebay in order to make my Unending Host. So I have managed to own a, "Forge World," army and not spend FORGE WORLD price.

And this whole chosing my army is my fault? How is that my fault when people like you enable GW and FW to price gouge when you happily open your wallet to them? GW and FW knows you will buy regardless of price because you, "want to support the game and the company to enrich the gaming and hobby community," but in reality you are just lining the investor's pockets. I have no problem with GW and FW being an international corporate business, I have a huge problem with them LYING to us that they are just a company that makes miniatures first and foremost and not caring about the game mechanics and rules balancing. The GAME drives the sales! Why would I even collect 200 cultists? When its the same 20 models repeated 10 times. BECAUSE I want to play a GAME, with the 200 cultists not just collect and paint them. I am spending the least amount of time painting them.

Its the just the, "Rule Book," that is from FW and cost over $100 because it is 280+ pages with just 45 pages of rules while the rest is another army called Death Korps of Krieg which I am personally not interested in because they represent Nazi.

I am going to have to buy the book. There is no buts or ands about it. I am going to have to begrudingly give them my money so I can play and put this past me. Then I am going to show the book to my opponent to verify the rules and that I am not cheating. At least once I do that, I can now call people out for not having their rule book/codex even if its a pdf. I can do it, but I really dont care to do so

.

Snip.

Calm down and remove head from donkey cave.

I'm not saying you need to buy everything from GW. I personally play mostly third party models, a fair number of which happen to have GW bitz. I am not, nor anyone else, telling you that we refuse to play you if you show up with a single model not stamped by GW / forgeworld, or not painted in their signature colors. We're not total bellends.

You're really going off the deep-end here, it's absolutely unneeded. If you're playing a game system, especially one as labyrinthine as 40k, it's really not unreasonable to expect to have all rules relevant to the current game present. It just makes things lots cleaner and prevents cheating. While I doubt you yourself may be a cheater that does not mean that many people out there are not so moral.

As the person above me stated, things change a bit if you're in a tight knit group of friends who game regularly. But just pick up games with strangers / near strangers at a local hobby store or GW? It's a good practice to observe because it prevents you from being cheated and also assures others that you're not cheating. Lots of people may be unfamiliar with Forgeworld, and given some of their bizarre rules / lists it's generally eye-brow raising to those not already immersed in that aspect of the hobby.

I am personally not familiar with every single codex in the game. Hell, I don't even have the newer ones I use down to 100% memory at this point. If someone starts throwing around insane special rules / stats, I may ask to see it. Don't take offense, I'm not trying to call you a cheater, but seeing is believing. It's similar to preferring others show up with paper copies / battlescribes of their list. That way a quick glance can verify that no tomfoolery is afoot. This door swings both ways, I've had people ask to see my codex / have me point stuff out and it doesn't bother me when they do.

Lastly, Forge World is a niche within a niche. It's the luxury goods of what is already a range of luxury goods, so you pay for it. I'm sorry if you don't like 100$ for a codex; it's certainly hard to swallow. However you do get a good value out of it.. Relatively, at least. Given what's in the master Siege of Vraks book, as well as what's in Imperial Armour:13, they're actually far more cost efficient than standard GW codex releases.

You are not listening. I showed them my pdf copy of the codex on my lap top. The opponent called the judge and had me disqualified for not having the physical book and the judge threw me out.

I wrote that on here on dakka dakka and immediately people jump down.

"So you have a pirated version of the codex? That is breaking the law!"

"I wouldn't play you because it is SUSPICIOUS for you to hand me a bunch of page print outs while the book is still shrink wrapped."

Sure IA:13 and IA:SoV are cost efficient when you considered that they sold you a 200 page novel about how the Nazi fought and killed millions of evil Cultists. Superb story telling! Highly recommended. The pictures were good too. Then gave you the rules for 2 armies when you really only wanted to play 1.

Thanks for the help guys!

So, apparently Siege of Vraks has some units missing? Which ones? Just wondering if it'd be anything essential to playing the list. I understand I'd need a command squad for the detachment, and I was thinking of using plague zombies, rapier laser destroyers and griffons / wyverns

I would like to play in tourneys (and avoid getting kicked out!) but at the same time would like to avoid shelling out £110 total for BOTH the books if there are only minor differences. £60 is crazily expensive for a book as it is haha

In my experience, people will demand to see the rules for the Unending Host and the Purge so you need the IA:SoV.

The missing units in IA :SoV people dont use often but can be found in IA13.

Valkyrie, chimera, marauders, rules for covenant of Tzeentch and Slaanesh, and maybe a couple of demagogue devotions or whatever.

What's funny is that Vraks squads still have the option to take chimeras

Yeah, and Marauders. Horrible editing, as if they didn't bother to double check. No points on the psyker, either.

Awesome, cheers guys! Sounds like SoV is the one to go for - I'm not bothered about chimeras and have no idea what marauders even are haha