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Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
7th with most of the garbage stripped out.

Not sure about this.

The thing about Horus Heresy is that it costs so much most people are in it for the collecting aspect of the hobby. Its more about "look at my amazing models you may never have seen before with a labour of love paint job" than "and this unit hits on 2s, wounds on 2s, and does ten thousand mortal wounds, just take them off the table right now I WIN!!"

I think 7th is still a very janky ruleset - but yeah, if people self-moderate its okay.

Most of the garbage stripped out, right.....

I heard phosphex was fun and interactive.

They literally took care of that in the last errata.

After how long?
Don't get me wrong but something like that shouldn't have passed the internal playtesting.

There's several things GW doesn't take care of very quickly. That doesn't shock me in the least.

Karol wrote:
What is horus heresy?

A mostly dead, and very expensive game (enjoy buying multiple large, resin tank kits which cost £70+ - and let's not even talk about the rulebooks), with its own massive host of balance issues and problems.

Also no Xenos.

There's also an increasing number of 'No Longer Available' models.

 cole1114 wrote:
Getting rid of soup won't make the game balanced. It'll just mean a new set of armies get all the top five placements. Bringing back FoCs will have the same effect. The only way to really combat the meta getting stagnant is constant re-balancing, which is difficult in a physical game where you have to keep track of every individual FAQ that comes out. They can't be putting out a new chapter approved every month, and that's about what it'd take to get any real rebalancing done.

This is the most intelligent thing I have seen written in this thread and the truth. Nothing else needs to be discussed after this. Can we please close soupisbad thread #984445 now?

So what soup players are suppose to get what they want, and people that want or can only play mono lists are suppose to either play soup themselfs or quit?

That is hardly a middle ground between both positions. I mean mono players could say that their problems would be fixed, if ally were just removed from the game.

So people that play mono lists get what they want, and soup players can't play with their models anymore? Allies have been a thing for the last three editions. They are not going away. The only people I feel slighlty sorry for are codexes that can't ally with anything as of right now. But I am pretty sure future releases will add things that those codexes will be able to ally with.

The Salt Mine wrote:

 cole1114 wrote:
Getting rid of soup won't make the game balanced. It'll just mean a new set of armies get all the top five placements. Bringing back FoCs will have the same effect. The only way to really combat the meta getting stagnant is constant re-balancing, which is difficult in a physical game where you have to keep track of every individual FAQ that comes out. They can't be putting out a new chapter approved every month, and that's about what it'd take to get any real rebalancing done.

This is the most intelligent thing I have seen written in this thread and the truth. Nothing else needs to be discussed after this. Can we please close soupisbad thread #984445 now?

Honestly the rules should be digital / subscription based or ap based like warmahordes. and treated like living rules. make a battle ap where games are submitted, keeps track of wounds etc and unit numbers providing actual performance data, then adjust points according to the results of all games. as things are rising above the rest an algorithm adjusts the points down, things under performing start to go down in points. update points quarterly with set limits to how much a things can be changed.

as for "soup is bad"... well it isn't "bad" per say, its just more difficult to balance a game around and all of the mono dex factions should either be given soup options themselves or given buffs to compete at that level of play.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

 cole1114 wrote:
Getting rid of soup won't make the game balanced. It'll just mean a new set of armies get all the top five placements. Bringing back FoCs will have the same effect. The only way to really combat the meta getting stagnant is constant re-balancing, which is difficult in a physical game where you have to keep track of every individual FAQ that comes out. They can't be putting out a new chapter approved every month, and that's about what it'd take to get any real rebalancing done.

This is the most intelligent thing I have seen written in this thread and the truth. Nothing else needs to be discussed after this. Can we please close soupisbad thread #984445 now?

Honestly the rules should be digital / subscription based or ap based like warmahordes. and treated like living rules. make a battle ap where games are submitted, keeps track of wounds etc and unit numbers providing actual performance data, then adjust points according to the results of all games. as things are rising above the rest an algorithm adjusts the points down, things under performing start to go down in points. update points quarterly with set limits to how much a things can be changed.

as for "soup is bad"... well it isn't "bad" per say, its just more difficult to balance a game around and all of the mono dex factions should either be given soup options themselves or given buffs to compete at that level of play.

It's no more difficult than trying to balance the 50+ entries that exist in the Space Marine codex alone, even though most of those choices are poor.

The Salt Mine wrote:
So people that play mono lists get what they want, and soup players can't play with their models anymore? Allies have been a thing for the last three editions. They are not going away. The only people I feel slighlty sorry for are codexes that can't ally with anything as of right now. But I am pretty sure future releases will add things that those codexes will be able to ally with.

This is a misnomer because allies, as it is now, is not the same as allies before. They are not even remotely close to the same thing to be comparable.

Wayniac wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
So people that play mono lists get what they want, and soup players can't play with their models anymore? Allies have been a thing for the last three editions. They are not going away. The only people I feel slighlty sorry for are codexes that can't ally with anything as of right now. But I am pretty sure future releases will add things that those codexes will be able to ally with.

This is a misnomer because allies, as it is now, is not the same as allies before. They are not even remotely close to the same thing to be comparable.

Only by entry number. You'd be surprised how many points you could actually dedicate to said allies though.

This is a misnomer because allies, as it is now, is not the same as allies before. They are not even remotely close to the same thing to be comparable.

I kinda agree with this because allies in previous editions tended to be much more free-form. Ally Orks and Necrons together? No problem. Ally Tyranids and Space Marines? You go ahead buddy and make sure to buy enough termagants. Stuff like Taudar were legendary combos.

Good times, good times. Would be fun to have them back. Would at least make my friend happy who played Ork and Necron combo.

 blood reaper wrote:

Karol wrote:
What is horus heresy?

A mostly dead, and very expensive game (enjoy buying multiple large, resin tank kits which cost £70+ - and let's not even talk about the rulebooks), with its own massive host of balance issues and problems.

Also no Xenos.

There's also an increasing number of 'No Longer Available' models.

A massively thriving game that continues to have more and more people turn up to tournaments and had a big influx of players who didn't like the change to 8th that is incredibly expensive.

It has some balance issues but nothing on the scale of 40k that people put up with, but forge world is slow to resolve these.

Has the entire range of 7th ed xenos codex's to choose from with some slight adjustments to fit the force org chart and no formations.

They have discontinued several low selling sets or sets that have a plastic alternative from gw, but have also annoyingly discontinued several much needed sets for certain units, conversions for these units are incredibly easy however, they are continuing to add new units however but not on the scale of 40k due to having split resources and a low amount of staff.

 Formosa wrote:

Has the entire range of 7th ed xenos codex's to choose from with some slight adjustments to fit the force org chart and no formations.

They have discontinued several low selling sets or sets that have a plastic alternative from gw, but have also annoyingly discontinued several much needed sets for certain units, conversions for these units are incredibly easy however, they are continuing to add new units however but not on the scale of 40k due to having split resources and a low amount of staff.

Including Necrons and Tau?
They were around in 30k?

 Blndmage wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Has the entire range of 7th ed xenos codex's to choose from with some slight adjustments to fit the force org chart and no formations.

They have discontinued several low selling sets or sets that have a plastic alternative from gw, but have also annoyingly discontinued several much needed sets for certain units, conversions for these units are incredibly easy however, they are continuing to add new units however but not on the scale of 40k due to having split resources and a low amount of staff.

Including Necrons and Tau?
They were around in 30k?

Small Necron sighting I think from mostly Triarch stuff, but I think nothing from Tau.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Has the entire range of 7th ed xenos codex's to choose from with some slight adjustments to fit the force org chart and no formations.

They have discontinued several low selling sets or sets that have a plastic alternative from gw, but have also annoyingly discontinued several much needed sets for certain units, conversions for these units are incredibly easy however, they are continuing to add new units however but not on the scale of 40k due to having split resources and a low amount of staff.

Including Necrons and Tau?
They were around in 30k?

Small Necron sighting I think from mostly Triarch stuff, but I think nothing from Tau.

What I quoted makes it sound like ALL Xenos codexes are fair game and playable.
If that's not true, then it's a horrible description of the game.

 Blndmage wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Has the entire range of 7th ed xenos codex's to choose from with some slight adjustments to fit the force org chart and no formations.

They have discontinued several low selling sets or sets that have a plastic alternative from gw, but have also annoyingly discontinued several much needed sets for certain units, conversions for these units are incredibly easy however, they are continuing to add new units however but not on the scale of 40k due to having split resources and a low amount of staff.

Including Necrons and Tau?
They were around in 30k?

Small Necron sighting I think from mostly Triarch stuff, but I think nothing from Tau.

What I quoted makes it sound like ALL Xenos codexes are fair game and playable.
If that's not true, then it's a horrible description of the game.

It has the same rules as 7th edition, so you could use 7th edition 40k armies against horus heresy armies. Including the xenos ones.

 Blndmage wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Has the entire range of 7th ed xenos codex's to choose from with some slight adjustments to fit the force org chart and no formations.

They have discontinued several low selling sets or sets that have a plastic alternative from gw, but have also annoyingly discontinued several much needed sets for certain units, conversions for these units are incredibly easy however, they are continuing to add new units however but not on the scale of 40k due to having split resources and a low amount of staff.

Including Necrons and Tau?
They were around in 30k?

Yes including necrons and tau, all those codexs are playable in 30k due to sharing a similar ruleset, as for fluff reasons, i leave that to you, we have had a tau fleet lost in the warp in recent fluff, bam turns up in HH for "reasons" and necrons is easier, some woke up early, well thats already happened so its not much of a stretch.

 Formosa wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

Karol wrote:
What is horus heresy?

A mostly dead, and very expensive game (enjoy buying multiple large, resin tank kits which cost £70+ - and let's not even talk about the rulebooks), with its own massive host of balance issues and problems.

Also no Xenos.

There's also an increasing number of 'No Longer Available' models.

A massively thriving game that continues to have more and more people turn up to tournaments and had a big influx of players who didn't like the change to 8th that is incredibly expensive.

It has some balance issues but nothing on the scale of 40k that people put up with, but forge world is slow to resolve these.

Has the entire range of 7th ed xenos codex's to choose from with some slight adjustments to fit the force org chart and no formations.

They have discontinued several low selling sets or sets that have a plastic alternative from gw, but have also annoyingly discontinued several much needed sets for certain units, conversions for these units are incredibly easy however, they are continuing to add new units however but not on the scale of 40k due to having split resources and a low amount of staff.

"A massively thriving"

A majority of forum goers (which has been most of the evidence for these claims) would not agree.

"Who don't like the change to 8th ed that is massively expensive"

?????

"It has some balance issues but nothing on the scale of 40k that people put up with, but forge world is slow to resolve these."

Thousand Sons, Custodes, etc. would have a word.

"Has the entire range of 7th ed xenos codex's to choose from with some slight adjustments to fit the force org chart and no formations."

Which aren't intended to play against any of the HH forces. I also don't think you can claim balance with you're talking about books like the Tyranid and Ork codexes, or the Eldar and Tau codexes.

 Formosa wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Has the entire range of 7th ed xenos codex's to choose from with some slight adjustments to fit the force org chart and no formations.

They have discontinued several low selling sets or sets that have a plastic alternative from gw, but have also annoyingly discontinued several much needed sets for certain units, conversions for these units are incredibly easy however, they are continuing to add new units however but not on the scale of 40k due to having split resources and a low amount of staff.

Including Necrons and Tau?
They were around in 30k?

Yes including necrons and tau, all those codexs are playable in 30k due to sharing a similar ruleset, as for fluff reasons, i leave that to you, we have had a tau fleet lost in the warp in recent fluff, bam turns up in HH for "reasons" and necrons is easier, some woke up early, well thats already happened so its not much of a stretch.

People I've seen tend to treat Xenos that wouldn't technically be around (so that's mostly Tyranids, Necrons and Tau) as being one of the myriad of xenos races wiped out in the crusade.

So like T'au are normally played as proxy for the Interex or a similar more futuristic type race. Necrons could be the same, an alien races that used "robots" or something. Tyranids are usually some sort of alien bug/monster (e.g. the Megarachinids). So this fundamentally means you're doing a proxy army.

It is obvious that balancing units individually is the most important factor to fixing imperial and aeldari soup. However multiple codex mixed armies also need a small negative to balance out the advantage of having access to extra stratagems, relics, warlord traits, psychic abilities, and units which is very powerful. Monodex armies shouldn't have an inherent disadvantage, and we shouldn't balance units assuming they are soley used in synergistic soup armies so that the monodex options are at an even bigger disadvantage.
If we can have a little nerf for mixing codexes then these problem units may not have to be nerfed or at least not as bad.

A majority of forum goers (which has been most of the evidence for these claims) would not agree.

On this forum, 30k forums are thriving, this is a 40k forum

"Who don't like the change to 8th ed that is massively expensive"

?????

You misquoted me for some odd reason there, 40k is incredibly expensive, people still put up with it, heresy is more expensive than that.

"It has some balance issues but nothing on the scale of 40k that people put up with, but forge world is slow to resolve these."

Thousand Sons, Custodes, etc. would have a word

Yes they would and forge world is solving that issue, very slowly, exactly like i said ??

"Has the entire range of 7th ed xenos codex's to choose from with some slight adjustments to fit the force org chart and no formations."

Which aren't intended to play against any of the HH forces. I also don't think you can claim balance with you're talking about books like the Tyranid and Ork codexes, or the Eldar and Tau codexes.

Does not matter if they are intended to be used or not, they are compatible and if people want to use them they can, when introducing such books balance can be an issue, in favour of most 40k codexs, orks have a very hard time against legions though, eldar and tau laughably smash legion armies off the table, lack of formations mitigate this though.