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An opponent rolled a a with a melta-girl, and then rerolled it claiming use of a 'once per game, once per unit' Act of Faith rule. Did this a few times for different units of SistersoB. Later on he muddled whether he could do this rule-wise.

Q#1- Does the AoF need to be declared before the die is rerolled?

Q#2- Where shall I find and get GW's rules on SoB these days?

Different Sisters of Battle units have different Acts of Faith, which must be declared before acting in the phase in which it applies, and generally requires a leadership test.

In this case, regular Battle Sister squads have an Act of Faith that grants them Preferred Enemy in either the shooting phase or either player's assault phase. This is probably what your opponent was talking about. However, this must be declared before any dice are rolled and requires a leadership test.

The most up to date Sisters rules are in a digital download.

Without more context, it's hard to give advice beyond "always ask to see the rule that doesn't make sense".

In the case of Sisters of Battle, each unit has it's own Act of Faith that must be declared at the beginning of the phase if it will be used. Each Act of Faith has different phases for when it can be used, each unit can only use their Act of Faith once per game, and a Leadership Check is required to activite it.

Always ask to see a rule you are unfamiliar with. It is the polite thing to do, and prevents bad feelings.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Without more context, it's hard to give advice beyond "always ask to see the rule that doesn't make sense".

In the case of Sisters of Battle, each unit has it's own Act of Faith that must be declared at the beginning of the phase if it will be used. Each Act of Faith has different phases for when it can be used, each unit can only use their Act of Faith once per game, and a Leadership Check is required to activite it.

Always ask to see a rule you are unfamiliar with. It is the polite thing to do, and prevents bad feelings.

SJ

There is a wargear exception to the once per game but otherwise yes. If your opponent was not declaring his AoF at the beginning of the phase and was just waiting until he saw his dice roll then he was cheating. You cannot declare the use of an act after you've rolled dice, it must be done at the beginning of whatever phase it's being used in.

Thanks all.

Yeah, this confirms that he was breaking rules. Not a single leadership check for these shooting rerolls. He did mention the Prefered Enemy on shooting with those rerolled a couple times.

As far as not looking it up during the game:
A. we are part of a several months of RTT regular set of players. One might think we can have faith in each other to know our own rules.
B. Round 3 of an RTT, we were both out of the running for a prize, having won and loss a game each. For that reason, it was not too important to me at the time, additionally, because ....
b2. 1850 points in 2.5 hour rounds can be tough to finish when i have scatbike and spider spam and his number of vehicles looks like the Sisters version of Battle Co. We were rushing to finish 4 turns.
... and ...
b.3 I like to manipulate people when they have commited mistakes and leveraging their guilt into behavior changes. **

Still, I will revisit this with him, with the TO at the beginning of the next RTT. I will make sure he knows he is a Tool for doing this multiple times (i don't recall if he even apologised) and to play a cleaner game, otherwise I will work to get him banned.


** I do not watch soap operas, but maybe I should to pick up a tips on this.

Faith is for your dice, not your rules. Alway ask if something seems off. It neither slows the game nor hurts feelings to play an odd rule correctly.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Faith is for your dice, not your rules. Alway ask if something seems off. It neither slows the game nor hurts feelings to play an odd rule correctly.

SJ

Thanks SJ, but I am not here to get advice on how to handle myself in a tourney.

1. Looking up rules does slow the game down. I dragged him over to the TO three rimes, Cover Saves, a barrage Q and something else.
2. Of course looking up a rule that points out a player is wrong, hurts and embarrasses the mistaken player. This guy was definitely pained to be caught. *I* chafe at playing something wrong.
3. I dunno if I can legitimately claim that I always ask if something seems off, but I think I do most of the time.

I am sorry that my first post did not make it clear, but SJ, yes, I did ask him for a clarification on these rerolls. He muttered and fussed and explained ... Poorly. On my loud, clear, "So, you are SUPPOSED to declare it (acts of faith) BEFORE dice are rolled?" he dithered and sorta nodded, probably embarrassed. As I cited in reasons A & B, I said something to the effect, ' okay, so, you will declare those before dice from now on and simply have to accept ons rolled if you forget ... ' that is not exact, but close enough. And we moved on.

I came YMDC so I know exactly what he ought to have been doing.

If you care to know a bit more about me, SJ, I have been attending RTTs monhly, and a few GTs a year for four years now. Your concern is appreciated. SRSLY.

Brothererekose wrote:Yeah, this confirms that he was breaking rules. Not a single leadership check for these shooting rerolls. He did mention the Prefered Enemy on shooting with those rerolled a couple times.

Hey man!
Let me clarify a bit the situation because you got some things right and some things wrong.

First we're talking about my two mandatory Battle Sister Squad. As with almost all unit in that codex, they have a one-per-game Act of Faith that they can activate via a successful Ld check before doing something. For the BSS, it grant them Preferred Enemy until the end of the phase. I explained it the first time I used it, but apparently you don't remember.

What happened is that when my second squad was shooting your spiders I did fire the Heavy Flamer first - resolved the whole attack with no reroll - then remembered to use my act of faith to finally fire with the melta (and use PE on this one). So yeah, I fethed up on that one sorry.
However:
A/ The first BSS squad used its Act properly, I did not screw that one.
B/ I made all my Ld check. Maybe you were distracted, or tired, or just not familiar enough with sisters to realize what roll was for what, but I announced them and rolled for it.
C/ When you asked me if I should not have passed the Act before firing the flamer I told you that yes I should have. I did not try to hide that. Sure i was probably embarassed, nobody likes to do mistakes.
D/ Also I'd like to remember you that I proposed to go back on those rolls but you told me to continue, like it was no big deal.

And just as you said, it was the 3rd and last game, we were not playing for anything and that melta shot was not even important. So I just went on. But apparently it's bugging you way more than it should.

Anyway, if you did not clearly understand what I said, you could also have asked me to repeat. I don't bite. You know my English is far from perfect, and to be honest after a whole day of gaming, it probably gets terrible.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Faith is for your dice, not your rules. Alway ask if something seems off. It neither slows the game nor hurts feelings to play an odd rule correctly.

SJ

Thanks SJ, but I am not here to get advice on how to handle myself in a tourney.

1. Looking up rules does slow the game down. I dragged him over to the TO three rimes, Cover Saves, a barrage Q and something else.
2. Of course looking up a rule that points out a player is wrong, hurts and embarrasses the mistaken player. This guy was definitely pained to be caught. *I* chafe at playing something wrong.
3. I dunno if I can legitimately claim that I always ask if something seems off, but I think I do most of the time.

I am sorry that my first post did not make it clear, but SJ, yes, I did ask him for a clarification on these rerolls. He muttered and fussed and explained ... Poorly. On my loud, clear, "So, you are SUPPOSED to declare it (acts of faith) BEFORE dice are rolled?" he dithered and sorta nodded, probably embarrassed. As I cited in reasons A & B, I said something to the effect, ' okay, so, you will declare those before dice from now on and simply have to accept ons rolled if you forget ... ' that is not exact, but close enough. And we moved on.

I came YMDC so I know exactly what he ought to have been doing.

If you care to know a bit more about me, SJ, I have been attending RTTs monhly, and a few GTs a year for four years now. Your concern is appreciated. SRSLY.

Then I have no clue what you are asking about, as you plainly don't care what the actual rules are, how to resolve a rules dispute, nor good gaming ettiquete. All I can say is have fun being superior to those that answer your questions that you don't really want the answers to.

Good day, sir.

SJ

 RabbitMaster wrote:

Brothererekose wrote:Yeah, this confirms that he was breaking rules. Not a single leadership check for these shooting rerolls. He did mention the Prefered Enemy on shooting with those rerolled a couple times.

Hey man!

Hello! This cool that you are replying. Far better for us to resolve with equal input, and YMDC is better than my above stated intent to meet with you and the TO for a harsh meeting. I was being a power tripping Tool there.

Let me clarify a bit the situation because you got some things right and some things wrong.

First we're talking about my two mandatory Battle Sister Squad. As with almost all unit in that codex, they have a one-per-game Act of Faith that they can activate via a successful Ld check before doing something. For the BSS, it grant them Preferred Enemy until the end of the phase. I explained it the first time I used it, but apparently you don't remember.

What happened is that when my second squad was shooting your spiders I did fire the Heavy Flamer first - resolved the whole attack with no reroll - then remembered to use my act of faith to finally fire with the melta (and use PE on this one). So yeah, I fethed up on that one sorry.
However:
A/ The first BSS squad used its Act properly, I did not screw that one.
B/ I made all my Ld check. Maybe you were distracted, or tired, or just not familiar enough with sisters to realize what roll was for what, but I announced them and rolled for it.

I only recall leadership checks for Morale on the squads that got shot up. Rolling leadership before shooting would have stuck out significantly, because almost no unit in the game checks leadership before an action like shooting. Unless we go back to 5e psy-phases.


Not tired. I was really pumped up from having defeated the previous opponent.

If my opponent is distracted, I stop and double check to make sure the other guy is ready to watch an important roll, or gives me a "Go ahead" because we trust each other.

C/ When you asked me if I should not have passed the Act before firing the flamer I told you that yes I should have. I did not try to hide that. Sure i was probably embarassed, nobody likes to do mistakes.
D/ Also I'd like to remember you that I proposed to go back on those rolls but you told me to continue, like it was no big deal.
And just as you said, it was the 3rd and last game, we were not playing for anything and that melta shot was not even important. So I just went on. But apparently it's bugging you way more than it should.

You did? For rolls on the previous turn? I recall you once offered to reroll again.

I declined. Any time there is a contention that would end in my favor, I tend to go in favor of my opponent.

If I find myself in a place where I made a mistake that caused his models to be unfairly removed, I do not leave it on my opponent to ask for the correction. I do it myself. I would have disregarded my rolls, asked for my opponent's models that were removed to be put back on the field.

Check with the other guys as they ought to recall me doing this once in a while.

As for bugging me 'more than it should' ... ... Yes, yes it does.

It bothers enough to come to a source like YMDC and get the facts to prevent that extra meltagun shot here or there. We need to have clean, satisfying games. As best I recall, there were 3 or so of these no Morale Check mistakes, over more than one turn, and on a game that tied ... one spider more here or there, one more wound that kills the WraithKnight, on ITC missions ....

Yes, it bothers enough that (I hope you take it well):
A. You be very clear in your next game on calling your dice.
B. Do like I do when you make a mistake, do not ask your opponent if they want it reversed, *you* correct the mistake. Have the opponent put models back on the table, remove the Maelstrom point, etc.

A personal item - was I being a tool? I wondered why you had not one smile throughout the game. You looked really unhappy. Please let me know, I am all about improvement. Srsly.

Anyway, if you did not clearly understand what I said, you could also have asked me to repeat. I don't bite. You know my English is far from perfect, and to be honest after a whole day of gaming, it probably gets terrible.

Well, I did ask, as an above post states.

Your english is pretty good. Take that from a 20 year teacher who has listened to a lot of poorly spoken english.

I came to dakka to get as clear an understanding of how the rules are, with the intent to see improvement when we would speak again. And I hope, as teachers hope, when mistakes are made, people improve on them.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heya, RabbitMaster,

How about a game soon? I am on vacation for the summer and available most hours. A rematch would do us both good. Maybe a trip across the street to LB's after or for a Turn 3 break?

Round 1 on me.

PM here on dakka or on FaceBook.

Quick response because I'm at work.

As best I recall, there were 3 or so of these no Morale Check mistakes, over more than one turn, and on a game that tied ... one spider more here or there, one more wound that kills the WraithKnight, on ITC missions ....

In my army I had a total of 5 units with Act of Faiths: Celestine, the two troop units and the two dominion units.
- The two dominion units never had a chance to use their Act of Faith. They went to try kill the wraithknight that was never in cover (their act grant them ignore cover), and you killed them super easily in the first two turns before they had the time to do anything else.
- Celestine used her Act normally to come back from the dead on top of turn 4. You watched me roll for it and we even discussed right away about how many wounds she had when coming back (you thought she went back with only 1).

That leaves the two troop units. They each used their act in different turns.
- The first unit used it on my turn 2 to try finish off the WK last wound after he tanked all the exorcists and dominions. I don't remembered if I rerolled a 1 to hit or to wound, but it ended up doing nothing anyway. That giant robot lived until it killed itself right after that. They almost failed their act with a 7/8 on the Ld check (I don't pay for the Ld9 upgrade on those min-maxed troop units).
- The second one used it on turn 3 to roast some spiders that you clumped up just beside their rhino when they tried to jump out of LoS after a nearby exorcist targeted them. This is the one were I made a mistake. Their Ld check was also a close call with failure, and again I rerolled a 1 to hit or to wound with their meltagun. I don't remember if this one killed a spider or not in the end though, so not sure if there was any in-game consequences to this screw up.
This is when I proposed to go back on the rolls. I did not propose for the first unit and later for Celestine since there was no mistake those times.

Hello! This cool that you are replying. Far better for us to resolve with equal input, and YMDC is better than my above stated intent to meet with you and the TO for a harsh meeting. I was being a power tripping Tool there.

Yeah... this is why *maybe* it would have been better to talk about it during or after the game instead of accepting my mistake just to complain about it online a few days after.

How about a game soon? I am on vacation for the summer and available most hours. A rematch would do us both good. Maybe a trip across the street to LB's after or for a Turn 3 break?

Maybe in a few weeks but right now I'm rather busy because of work and I don't even have time for the 40k league/tuesday's at GE.

 RabbitMaster wrote:
Quick response because I'm at work.

As best I recall, there were 3 or so of these no Morale Check mistakes, over more than one turn, and on a game that tied ... one spider more here or there, one more wound that kills the WraithKnight, on ITC missions ....

In my army I had a total of 5 units with Act of Faiths: Celestine, the two troop units and the two dominion units.
- The two dominion units never had a chance to use their Act of Faith. They went to try kill the ...

Thanks for the recap.

Hello! This cool that you are replying. Far better for us to resolve with equal input, and YMDC is better than my above stated intent to meet with you and the TO for a harsh meeting. I was being a power tripping Tool there.

Yeah... this is why *maybe* it would have been better to talk about it during or after the game instead of accepting my mistake just to complain about it online a few days after.

Complain? Oh, not the first post. That was just to get a clearer idea of how the units worked. Subsequent posts can definitely fall under that mantle, but I felt the other posters needed context.

But all this serves to improve our games, n'est pas?

As for discussing it more during our game, though you stated above that you do not bite, you looked really unhappy. Like a lot unhappy. I thought 'why make his day and my day crappier with an in depth look into rules he broke?'

How about a game soon? I am on vacation for the summer and available most hours. A rematch would do us both good. Maybe a trip across the street to LB's after or for a Turn 3 break?

Maybe in a few weeks but right now I'm rather busy because of work and I don't even have time for the 40k league/tuesday's at GE.

Ah, well.

Have to chime in just to say Props to the both of you.

It is rare that you see two people work out their issues in a civilized manner on these forums.

We could use more examples like this