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A friend an I have been discussing how Warp Flame interacts with Endurance.

Say you have a Marine unit which cast Endurance, then they suffer an unsaved wound from a Warp Flame weapon. They pass their toughness test and their FNP becomes a 3+.

What, if any, FNP do they have at the start of their psychic phase?
If they cast Endurance again, what is their FNP?

No one knows. "There isn't any indication as to how this situation works.

Can you post up the exact rule for how Warpflame works?

It adds +1 to FNP or if no FNP gives a 6+

No, we need the EXACT wording. Because if it says that "it adds 1 to its current Feel No Pain save", well then its current Feel No Pain save is temporary, so (presumably) it'll disappear at the same time that its current Feel No Pain save does. If it says "It adds 1 to its Feel No Pain save, and successive passed Feel No Pain saves continue to add 1 to a maximum of 2+ Feel No Pain" (note the lack of "current"), then that suggests that this is a new Feel No Pain save, meaning that if they were just benefiting from a temporary one, then this one is permanent.

In other words, the EXACT wording could matter!

I want to say that the wording says "grants 6+ FNP or +1 to FNP if the unit already has FNP" but I don't have my book right now.

If this is close, then it would mean that casting Endurance would create an existing FNP that Warpflame would modify.

 Yarium wrote:
No, we need the EXACT wording. Because if it says that "it adds 1 to its current Feel No Pain save", well then its current Feel No Pain save is temporary, so (presumably) it'll disappear at the same time that its current Feel No Pain save does. If it says "It adds 1 to its Feel No Pain save, and successive passed Feel No Pain saves continue to add 1 to a maximum of 2+ Feel No Pain" (note the lack of "current"), then that suggests that this is a new Feel No Pain save, meaning that if they were just benefiting from a temporary one, then this one is permanent.

In other words, the EXACT wording could matter!

ITs wording is the unit gets 6+ FNP, any models that already have FNP get +1 instead.

So is this an issue of sequencing? Say a unit has Endurance up, then gets Warpflamed. Easy, they now have a 3+ FNP
But if that unit gets Warpflamed first and has the 6+ FNP before casting Endurance, do they have 2 FNPs? a 4+ & a 6+? Or does the warpflame "switch" to +1 to any FNP they later gain?

Well, if you treat it how they treat modifiers to characteristics, then you would end up with a 4+ as at the time you would apply a +1, there is no FNP to modify, so you'd end up with the 4+ and 6+ FNP, which is what you end up with if you apply them in the sequence they're cast in this case

So the wording of the rule from Curse of the Wulfen is:
Warpflame: At the end of each phase, any unit that suffered one or more unsaved Wounds during the phase from an attack with this special rule (or from an attack made by a model with this special rule), must take a Toughness test. If the test is failed, the unit immediately suffers d3 Wounds with no armour or cover saves allowed. If the test is passed, all models in the unit gain the Feel No Pain (6+) special rule for the rest of the game. Any models in the unit that already have the Feel No Pain special rule instead again +1 to all Feel No Pain rolls for the rest of the game. Chaos is Fickle!

So if it has the power up it gets 3+ as long as the power is up and a 6 if it's not as if you get +1 to a save with - it becomes a 6+ right?

JakeSiren wrote:
So the wording of the rule from Curse of the Wulfen is:
Warpflame: At the end of each phase, any unit that suffered one or more unsaved Wounds during the phase from an attack with this special rule (or from an attack made by a model with this special rule), must take a Toughness test. If the test is failed, the unit immediately suffers d3 Wounds with no armour or cover saves allowed. If the test is passed, all models in the unit gain the Feel No Pain (6+) special rule for the rest of the game. Any models in the unit that already have the Feel No Pain special rule instead again +1 to all Feel No Pain rolls for the rest of the game. Chaos is Fickle!

Well, with that wording you'd get the 3+ if you already have Endurance on, since that would be in place at the time you make the toughness test to see if you succeed and get FNP. If you succeed and get the FNP from Warpflame, though, it seems that you'd default back to the 6+ FNP the next turn when Endurance goes away, and any subsequent castings of FNP would have the the Warpflame already in place when the Endurance would kick in (following the procedure I suggested in my last post).

There is no sequencing issue whatsoever here.

If at the time you pass the test you don't have FNP, then you gain the FNP(6+) rule permanently.
If at the time you pass the test you do have FNP, then you get a bonus granting you +1 to all your FNP *rolls* for the rest of the game.

You gain only one of the two, not both. And one does not magically become the other later in the game (nothing in the rule says so).
Also note that if you already have FNP, it doesnt modify your current FNP rule. A FNP(5+) doesnt become a FNP(4+), you simply have +1 to all your FNP roll, making you pass your FNP(5+) rule on a results of 4 or more.


Now a practical example:

Turn1:
You cast Endurance on your favorite squad of marines. Your guys have FNP(4+).
A band of pink horrors comes around, blast some dudes, but they do pass the warpflame test. Your guys have FNP(4+) and a permanent bonus of +1 on all their FNP rolls for the rest of the game.

Turn2:
Endurance fades away and you don't cast it againt on them. Now your marines does not have any FNP rules, but they still do have a bonus of +1 on all their FNP roll for the rest of the game. Right now it is totally useless, but that might change.

Turn3:
Your favorite sanguinary priest joins your squad of marines. Because of his blood chalice rule (or whatever), your marines now have FNP(5+) and they still have a bonus of +1 on all their FNP roll for the rest of the game. Hooray, your bonus is now usefull again.

Turn4:
An exalted flamer comes around, shoot the squad and the sanguinary priest dies. The marines the marines does not have FNP(5+) anymore since the priest dies. But they still have a permanent +1 bonus to their FNP roll.
Here comes the warpflame test, and they pass it. Do they have the FNP rule ? No. So they gain the FNP(6+) rule.

From now on, they have a permanent FNP(6+) rule and a permanent bonus of +1 on their FNP rolls.

I think RabbitMaster is correct and to futher his example,

A unit that passed the test and gains FNP (6) and later casts Endurance would now have both FNP (6) & (4+) and thus must choose which to use.
This unit DOES NOT have FNP (3+) since when it passed the test from Warpflame, it gained FNP (6), not +1 to FNP.

 Galef wrote:
I think RabbitMaster is correct and to futher his example,

A unit that passed the test and gains FNP (6) and later casts Endurance would now have both FNP (6) & (4+) and thus must choose which to use.
This unit DOES NOT have FNP (3+) since when it passed the test from Warpflame, it gains FNP (6), not +1 to FNP.

I can't wait to have to explain this to someone haha

 Galef wrote:
I think RabbitMaster is correct and to futher his example,

A unit that passed the test and gains FNP (6) and later casts Endurance would now have both FNP (6) & (4+) and thus must choose which to use.
This unit DOES NOT have FNP (3+) since when it passed the test from Warpflame, it gained FNP (6), not +1 to FNP.

That seems reasonable, the effect remaining constant, either +1 or a FNP 6. Multiple applications could get both, like getting hit with warpflame in both shooting (or psychic) and assault could give the FNP 6+ first during shooting (or psychic), then again during assault that turn. I don't know if there's a trifecta possible where they can get the FNP getting hit from a psychic power, then boost it during shooting , then boost it again during assault. If so, it could have a 4+ FNP for the rest of the game if Endurance wasn't on it at the time of the Warpflames, or a +3 to any FNP for the rest of the game if it was.

That makes sense. Thanks to everyone for the replies.