Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So we all know the rule of "don't list tailor." Generally, it's a good idea to have a TAC list. I fully support this idea. However, is some degree of list tailoring acceptable? I think so.

For example, I've been playing orks for about a year and a half now. In this year and a half, I've heard that grav is the absolute bane of the meta right now, and every army that can field it, will. However, in this year and a half of playing (almost) weekly, I've fought against grav once, and that was against a relatively new player. Why is this? Because you don't take grav against orks. Unless I bring 'eavy armor, you're wounding the majority of my army on a 6+. Likewise, I have seen a lot of flamers and blast templates in my time. Again, because these are good against orks. Now, I know the people I regularly play against, and I know they have grav in their armies, I just never see it. But I wouldn't call this list tailoring. I don't begrudge anyone for not bringing grav to an ork fight because that would just be a bad investment.

In the same vein, I do tweak my own lists a little depending on what I'm fighting. If I'm fighting Eldar or Necrons, I usually won't bother bringing bomb squigs because they can't hit skimmers, which both armies have in droves. If I'm facing Dark Angels and their 2+ rerollable jink save, I'm not going to bring lootas because they'll never wound anything. But I don't think this is list tailoring.

In my opinion, it is not list tailoring if you decide not to bring something that won't be effective against the opposing army. List tailoring is when you go out of your way to only bring units that are very hard counters to the other army. ineffective

Zero? We only use TAC lists. List tailoring is pretty well unacceptable in my groups.

List tailoring seems pretty unacceptable.

I think there are maybe a couple of exceptions. (If you play DE and the other players in your meta are some combination of SW, SM, CSM, DA, Necrons, and Sisters, it makes sense that you'll probably have more of a focus on MEQ units than a TAC list in a more balanced meta.)

Basically, adjusting for your meta seems okay. Adjusting for a specific opponent seems like a turd move.

I wont tailor my list but I also don't like facing opponents i have no shot against so I usually avoid them (though if i had the extra models to talor a list i would probally just leave out the units that cant do squat.)

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
In my opinion, it is not list tailoring if you decide not to bring something that won't be effective against the opposing army. List tailoring is when you go out of your way to only bring units that are very hard counters to the other army. ineffective

I think it is list tailoring, but in all honesty I don't mind playing against tailors. If your army is really take-all-comers then taking them shouldn't be a problem, regardless if those comers have tailored their army specifically to put yours at a disadvantage. Makes the game much, much harder, but at the end of the day if you win you're awesome because you beat a tailored list, while if you lose it's fine because your opponent tailored to beat you.

No army goes to war without knowing his opponent. He might not know what exactly is there, but he has an idea.

Writing an army to face Orks, or Space Marines I don't consider tailoring, but writing a list specifically to destroy little Timmys' shiny new toy is.

YMMV

Cheers

Andrew

depends how much you don't like the opponent i guess.

Depends on context? Like, if I'm playing a random pickup game with someone, I'll just use whatever list I brought, but if I tell a buddy 'Hey, want to play a game next week? I'll bring my Iron Hands' and he says 'Sure, I've been wanting to try out the Alpha Legion rules', then I kind of expect him to show up with some good AP3 choices to take me out.

I can honestly say I'm surprised at the responses. In my area we build our lists before the game 90% of the time. Rarely do we see someone with a true TAC list that they consistently bring. I guess a lot of it has to do with the area, too. Different cultures.

I build multiple lists, usually around 1850, but I leave it open to be dropped to 1500 or raised to 2000 at my opponents request.

Now it may be a bit of tailoring, but I really hate playing heavy armor lists (armored company...ugh...) so I do have specific anti armor lists for those types of games, but generally I go for a TAC flavor of the week list I've been working on, and wing it.

Zero is acceptable. List tailoring is incredibly poor behavior and rewards the person with the most money to spend on buying alternate list options instead of the person with the most skill at the game.

What if you're a more experience player and you're tailoring down?

For instance, my usually TAC list is just plain mean to bring against new players. (It's not by any means FANTASTIC, it's just better than a new player can really handle.) Isn't it good to tailor my list to make it easier for them to win, so they can at least have a good game, rather than just getting curbstomped?

If some one brings 5 Imperial Knights, and the opponent brings like 25 meltaguns, 9 lascannons, 10 melta bombs, then is that list tailoring?

 JNAProductions wrote:
What if you're a more experience player and you're tailoring down?

For instance, my usually TAC list is just plain mean to bring against new players. (It's not by any means FANTASTIC, it's just better than a new player can really handle.) Isn't it good to tailor my list to make it easier for them to win, so they can at least have a good game, rather than just getting curbstomped?

Not so much in this edition, but for 6th, I had a regular opponent that absolutely HATED my heldrakes, and I could tell he wasnt enjoying games. When we would play, I would swap that 340 pts for 2 Sorcerers.

I still use this "Side Bar" plug in system when writing lists, and alot of those numbers just stay with me. I love it when i can create two different units that match a specific point value. 170 pts is very frequent.

Now, by the time its game day I will have one list made, but if I have to do any points adjusting (which is very common in my LGS) I have all these options stuck in my head.

Our gaming group is also very open to discussion before game too.

Any Psykers? Any large blasts? Any Ignores Cover? We try to cater to both players experience and its not really an issue.

Now of course, there has been that one type that doesn't bring any list, asks you what you have, and comes back almost a half hour later with the counter to yours (and that guy got a talking to).... But what our group does is far different. its list... adjusting? No? Nobody?

Adjusting down to have a good game is acceptable.

bringing all the plasma when you know your opponent is bringing a terminator force is a dick move.

 JNAProductions wrote:
What if you're a more experience player and you're tailoring down?

For instance, my usually TAC list is just plain mean to bring against new players. (It's not by any means FANTASTIC, it's just better than a new player can really handle.) Isn't it good to tailor my list to make it easier for them to win, so they can at least have a good game, rather than just getting curbstomped?

By the letter of the law this is list tailoring.

However to most people list tailoring is possibly considered cheating by altering lists for advantage.

I would consider what you are doing there is gamesmanship to educate a new player. As time goes on and the new player learns you will go back to your normal list (informing him during the first game that this is what you have done. otherwise he might think you are tailoring afterwards).


I always bring set lists to game nights and ask for hard games so that I can look to improve my lists in preparation for tournaments.

The group I play with is split evenly between hardcore tournament players and fairly new/casual players.

No one has a good time when it's a tournament list stomping a new player, so tailoring down is common and accepted.
It's a chance to bring out those fun but sub-par units, and try something different from the usual.

Depends on circumstances.
If I'm out for a pick-up game I just tell my opponent I'm running Space Wolves or Nids.
If I'm prepping for a tournament I hand out copies of my list.
Let my opponent tailor point for point - Space Mutts have weaknesses and as often as I tell myself I know them there's always someone who can get me with a sneaky.

I think it comes down to the relative strength of both lists. No one likes to play a game where you know who's going to win, just by looking at the lists. I think that's where the anti-tailoring comes from: skewing your list to make it a hard counter against a specific army makes for poor games.

However, the current game is far from balanced. If a weaker codex knows that it's up against a much stronger one, and that a typical TAC list has no chance of winning, list tailoring isn't that bad. I think most people shoot for a game as even as possible. If list tailoring brings you closer to that, then in my book it's ok. If you tailor just to crush you opponent instead of having a fair game, then it's a typical TFG move.

0 tolerance to list tailoring. All list building balance comes from pre-game chat. If I'm going to for a pick up game, I'll discuss what the power level is. Possible answers would be 1) new player 2) fluffy/fun/weak lists 3) competitive games

For 1) I'll bring a list that's straightforward, easy to understand, without many and complicated formations (no necron decurions, possibly no formations at all) and quite weak with as many fun units I don't have the chance to squeeze in competitive games. (C'tan and Monoliths whooo)

For 2) I'll bring a fluffy, yet strong list I expect to win versus some opponents (but, it would obviously get stomped verus top list cheese). Like, I'd bring a Lychstar Decurion but with Monoliths for teleport goodness and no wraiths.

I usually prefer the 3rd option as it's the most fun. There's more thinking involved in-game, as you can't really try to outplay that new-player, you're more focused on trying to make him understand the game. Most of the times, however, I'm playing 2) and that's to be expected. Not many people like to face top level cheese in a regular pickup game.

3) Here I'll bring all the lists I'm tinkering with, that I'd take to a tournie. I'll possibly try a new cheesy tactic I've come up with. Min/max everything and do everything I can to go for the win.

Bear in mind, I'm bringing said lists ready from home and with no particular opponent in mind and I expect the same from my opponents. It's another thing to tone up and down based on the expectations of the game and another thing to prepare to fight certain lists/units. I could possibly have 3 lists of said 3 levels ready from home, go to FLGS and find an opponent. Ask him what power level he wants to face and get a game going.

EDIT: Instead of list tailoring agree on a power - level before playing. That should mostly cover for a balanced/fun game without the really dreaded tailoring. (Honestly, I'd almost get insulted if I could tell my enemy has changed things/brought different units to make his army more effective against my list. )

It depends on what you actually mean with tailoring. Knowing the exact list of your opponent and building yours around it is of course unacceptable but if you're going to play with a friend a mission included in some codex/supplement with two specific armies you can chose some units and wargear that in a TAC list you wouldn't consider, wihout calling that tailoring. If i play a mission in the Ghaz supplement with my orks against AM i'll bring a list that is built considering the specific army i'm going to face but without knowing the exact list of my opponent and viceversa. I don't like people that play ultra competitive lists in casual games, i prefer someone that actually tailors a bit than a SM player that brings the gladius all the time, or an eldar player that relies on the same overpowered list over and over again. The point is i like balanced games, if the lists involved are pre arranged it doesn't matter.

Every game I play (unless it's a fixed list league) I tailor the list to my opponent, sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. But the fact is, every list is tailored in some way. Even if you play the same army over and over, you've still tailored that list for one reason or another. And if you can't handle playing against someone who list tailors, then you're going to have a hard time dealing with a lot of things life throws at you.

I only 'list tailor' if I am playing a narrative game with a friend, never against a stranger or acquaintance.

For a narrative game (a campaign or the such) we discuss if we are taking something hard to counter with a TAC list (flyer spam, 3+ Land Raiders etc etc)

I write my lists so they are able to scale down or up based on the points level.

I prefer to learn how to fight against different list with the resources I give myself, not take extra blasters if I'm fighting a gladius, or taking a few extra venoms if I'm playing against tyranids, etc etc. Ruins most of the fun for me.

I sold off most of my collection, and now I'm just building specific lists. They may or may not be TAC, but they're pretty much set in stone due to my model availability at this point. I might change which formations I bring or if I use a CAD instead, typically based on who my opponent is going to be, but the models are going to be more or less the same.

How would you rate making slight list tailor choices when you know you have zero chance of winning?

I play with some tourney minded WAAC type players who will squeeze the most juice out of cheesiest cheese list and I just want to play my guard. If I dont engage in some degree of list tailoring I am pretty guaranteed to lose by turn 2. Now this is not major hard counter stuff, more like making sure that im not taking flamers against a Daemon Tetrad or not having any anti tank weapons against an all knight list.

I hate list tailoring, and i always make my army lists the night before.

List tailoring is a dick move, does nothing but create bad feels.

SJ

Ravingbantha wrote:
Every game I play (unless it's a fixed list league) I tailor the list to my opponent, sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. But the fact is, every list is tailored in some way. Even if you play the same army over and over, you've still tailored that list for one reason or another. And if you can't handle playing against someone who list tailors, then you're going to have a hard time dealing with a lot of things life throws at you.

That's why I don't tell people my list before hand. In fact, if I had more than one faction, I wouldn't tell that them that, either.

We have several player in our group that do not own more than one army.
Let's take a Dark Angel player. Of course you could say that they have three or four ways to build them: green-, death-, ravenwing and mixed. But It is not that complicated to know what to use against it. On the other side of the table is one of my six armies: Sisters and Blood Angels, Thunderwolves (only), Imperial Agents or Chaos Space Marines with 150 Cultists and of course Tau. They are very different to play and have mostly different versions how I play them. I think it would be an unfair advantage to NOT let my opponent know what army I will play _IF_ he asks me. Of course every player has a different point of view and if my opponent does not want to know what I will play, I won't tell him. ^^

Luckily we just play for fun so we had not had a single moment yet where list tailoring was a real problem. No three Whirlwinds against my cultists-spam, but maybe one! I don't think that slight list tailoring is that bad.
Everyone who had bad experiance with it should let his opponent know. So maybe talk about it? (Yeah, I know: f##king humans... ;D )

I believe in both players knowing the factions they're facing, but not any specifics of what's in the list. I play almost exclusively IG. That means that my opponent already knows what kind of units to expect, and if he plays more than one army, I don't. This right here is a disadvantage to me.

The other thing that comes into play.. is the different power level factions are at. If I know I'm going up against Tau, Eldar, or Crons, you can bet I'm going to put a slightly more competitive spin on my IG list or I'll just get stomped regardless if the other player plays a more fluffy army because the power levels are so far off.

I tell my opponants what faction I'm playing, but not what selections are in my list. I ask the same of them. This keeps things fairer as both players only know what faction they're up against. I don't ask an elder player whether he's using a wraithknight for instance. I just ask what faction he's playing.

Bottom line is, List tailoring to Factions is ok, List tailoring to specific units or models in an opponant's army is not.