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The Aeldari Bladehost formation has a special rule called "United in Death". The RAW for this is:

"Before choosing a unit from this Formation to make a Soulburst action (page 124), you can declare that the whole formation is United In Death. If you do so, the Soulburst action you choose applies to all units from the formation. You may only use this ability once per turn, and only if no unit from this formation has made a Soulburst action per turn."

Dedicated Transports are considered part of a formation. Does this formation bonus override the fact that vehicles normally cannot take Soulburst Actions (meaning, for example, that Venoms could fire 24 shots)?

How does this ability affect models that are embarked on transports? Could a unit of Harlequins embarked on a Starweaver shoot after said Starweaver Turbo-boosts as its Soulburst action?

The implications are...disturbing in terms of breaking the normal flow of 40k rules.

Yup, as the vehicles aren't using a 'soulburst' action, they are united in death instead. This is gonna be a fun formation...

I would lean towards no. You are still activating a Soulburst action, which vehicles cannot do. Note that is says the "Soulburst action" applies to the whole formation, not the effect of the action.
So how are the transports using a rule they cannot use?

Then again, Yncarne is a Daemon that can roll Sanctic powers, so it would not surprise me if they could.
Hopefully GW put out an FAQ for this the day the book officially drops, like they did with Wrath of Magnus

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 Galef wrote:
I would lean towards no. You are still activating a Soulburst action, which vehicles cannot do. Note that is says the "Soulburst action" applies to the whole formation, not the effect of the action.
So how are the transports using a rule they cannot use?

Then again, Yncarne is a Daemon that can roll Sanctic powers, so it would not surprise me if they could.
Hopefully GW put out an FAQ for this the day the book officially drops, like they did with Wrath of Magnus

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You are quite right, that's like claiming that since Windrides do have Battle focus they can run and shoot in the shooting phase (to wich GW FAQ said ; No you can't) , or just claim that since Ultramarines Chapter tactics are applied to you whole army models, vehicles are affected by this.

Also FAQ properly points embarked units count as not being in the table so RAW wise they shouldn't be able to use Soulburst neither.

RAW-wise, Soulburst is included in Strength through Death, but is separate from it. The way the rules are worded are similar to how Chaos Boons and Champion of Chaos are "related but separate", since it's also possible to gain Chaos Boons outside of Champion of Chaos (via Gift of Mutation, Path to Glory, etc). Which is why there's also an entry in the CSM FAQ about Mechanioid Body or other boons doing nothing for Vehicle Characters (since Boon of Mutation can target *any* friendly Character and not just those with Champion of Chaos, or even within Codex: Chaos Space Marines).

Soulburst can be triggered by 4 different things:
-Strength Through Death (non-vehicle).
-Word of the Phoenix (which does NOT say non-vehicle, despite the other blessing, Ancestor's Grace, having that qualifier).
-The Command bonus for the Ynarri Warhost (which doesn't state "a non-vehicle unit").
-United in Death.

Honestly, the way the rule is written, alongside the numerous other questions that come up ("can you Overwatch in the Movement or Shooting phases, because Overwatch is part of the Fight Subphase?" "How do you resolve an assault in the deployment phase when fighting versus Genestealer Cults?" Etc.)

This rule just opens up a massive can of worms due to the number of edgecases that it presents.

PS: Can a Bladehost that is taken as a standalone Formation swap out its Storm Guardians for Black Guardians?

The way SfD is worded, you pick a NON-vehicle unit within 7" to preform a Soulburst action. Even if you can give every unit within 7" a Soulburst action, it still would not apply to Vehicles, since they were never eligible for the action to begin with. Souldburst straight up gives the qualifier "non-vehicle" so all other rules affecting SfD would apply the non-vehicle qualifier unless it specifically says "this rule can allow a vehicle to make a Soulburst action"

Btw, Soulburst tells you if the enemy can overwatch or not.

The Blade Host can indeed be taken outside of the Reborn Host as a stand-alone Formation, but unless it specifics "Black Guardians" then it cannot take "Black Guardians". BGs have their own dataslate in the book and are not the same unit as Storm Guardians.

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The Bladehost requires either 2 units of Storm Guardians or Black Guardians. The Bladehost can either be taken as a standalone formation, or as part of a Reborn Host.

The rules for Black Guardians state they can either be taken in the Ulthwe Strike-Force or as part of a Reborn Host, so if I'm reading the rule correctly, you can take Black Guardians for the formation only if that formation was part of the Reborn Host.

I notice the Overwatch segment, so at least that's there.

Checked the wording. BGs are Eldar Faction Elites (so they can also be taken in an Eldar CAD) and they can be fielded in a USF or Reborn.
It doesn't say they can only be fielded as such

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 Galef wrote:

Spoiler:

Checked the wording. BGs are Eldar Faction Elites (so they can also be taken in an Eldar CAD) and they can be fielded in a USF or Reborn.
It doesn't say they can only be fielded as such

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Actually it does says only. Just later under Forces of Ulthwe, specifically FACTION, ALLIES AND DETACHMENTS it says:

These units can only be included as part of an Ulthwe Strike Force Detachment, shown right, or a Reborn Warhost and cannot be included...

 Galef wrote:
I would lean towards no. You are still activating a Soulburst action, which vehicles cannot do. Note that is says the "Soulburst action" applies to the whole formation, not the effect of the action.
So how are the transports using a rule they cannot use?


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Exactly this.

The United in Death rule effectively states that more than one unit can use a Soulburst, rather than just one. But even if a million units can use a Soulburst, the Soulburst action rule itself says it can't be used by vehicles.

Except the Soulburst rule does not state that non-vehicle units cannot make Soulburst actions.

The Strength from Death rule as written states that when a unit is destroyed between one or more non-vehicle units with that rule (as opposed to stating that vehicles do not have Strength from Death), that one of those units may take a Soulburst action.

The Ynnari Warhost rule states that when one model makes a Soulburst action, an additional one may do so. This does not reference the same Strength from Death restrictions (the same with Word of the Phoenix, btw). Which also brings up another question: If a Bladehost is taken as part of a Reborn Warhost, does a United in Death maneuver let only one additional unit Soulburst, or one per each unit that participates in United in Death?

 MagicJuggler wrote:

The Ynnari Warhost rule states that when one model makes a Soulburst action, an additional one may do so. This does not reference the same Strength from Death restrictions (the same with Word of the Phoenix, btw). Which also brings up another question: If a Bladehost is taken as part of a Reborn Warhost, does a United in Death maneuver let only one additional unit Soulburst, or one per each unit that participates in United in Death?

Oh wow. Do you have the wording for the Ynnari Warhost bonus? If it does say each time "a unit" makes a Soulburst action, an additional one may do so, that can get pretty ridiculous.
So you'd only need 1 unit from the Bladehost to get a Soulburst action for 7 more to do so (the other 3 from the Bladehost, plus 1 additional unit for each of those in the Blade host)

You could basically get your own mini-turn inside of the opponents turn.

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 MagicJuggler wrote:
Except the Soulburst rule does not state that non-vehicle units cannot make Soulburst actions.

The Strength from Death rule as written states that when a unit is destroyed between one or more non-vehicle units with that rule (as opposed to stating that vehicles do not have Strength from Death), that one of those units may take a Soulburst action.

The Ynnari Warhost rule states that when one model makes a Soulburst action, an additional one may do so. This does not reference the same Strength from Death restrictions (the same with Word of the Phoenix, btw). Which also brings up another question: If a Bladehost is taken as part of a Reborn Warhost, does a United in Death maneuver let only one additional unit Soulburst, or one per each unit that participates in United in Death?

Yes you're right, it does sound like that.

To try to break in down, I'm looking at the first line of 'united in death': 'before choosing a unit from this formation to make a soulburst action'. This implies that the unit that you choose has the 'strength from death' rule, otherwise you couldn't choose it.

The 'strength from death' rule gives you three action options. The shooting one says you can shoot (or run or turbo boost) as if it was your shooting phase. What it doesn't say is zoom or move flat out, which are also things you can do in your shooting phase. I think it says this because the unit that takes a soulburst action is meant to be a non-vehicle unit, however I understand I am arguing RAI with this.

Regarding your second question though, I think that's more straightforward. All your units in your Blade host FORMATION can do the action (whether or not we think that includes transports or not). So they can all do the action, but the action must be the same action, and each unit that can do it can only do so if allowed normally.

Example: per the 'united in death' rule, you choose a unit of dire avengers. You then say that the action you choose is shooting. All your units in your bladehost formation can now shoot, but one of your units in that formation had gone to ground. As you must treat it as your shooting phase, going to ground would prevent running or shooting, so they can't.

Say the action you had chosen was charging instead. Again, since you treat it as your charge sub phase, the unit that had gone to ground still couldn't charge. Maybe a unit had arrived from deep strike that turn, or perhaps disembarked from a non-assault vehicle? They can't charge either.

Regarding the Reborn warhost, I need to read the rule. Good question.

The one thing probably preventing a ton of unit getting to Soulburst from only 1 unit dying, it that it would be unlikely for all of them to be in range of that unit.

The Blade Host probably allows them all to Soulburst no matter where they seem to be, but the Ynnari Warhost bonus only allows you to "pick an additional unit" assuming that unit need to be in the 7" range as normal.

 Galef wrote:
The one thing probably preventing a ton of unit getting to Soulburst from only 1 unit dying, it that it would be unlikely for all of them to be in range of that unit.

The Blade Host probably allows them all to Soulburst no matter where they seem to be, but the Ynnari Warhost bonus only allows you to "pick an additional unit" assuming that unit need to be in the 7" range as normal.

We need the wording, to know whether that one additional unit can take a Soulburst action, or whether another unit within 7" of the dead one can also trigger their strength from death rule.

Warhanna wrote:

 Galef wrote:
The one thing probably preventing a ton of unit getting to Soulburst from only 1 unit dying, it that it would be unlikely for all of them to be in range of that unit.

The Blade Host probably allows them all to Soulburst no matter where they seem to be, but the Ynnari Warhost bonus only allows you to "pick an additional unit" assuming that unit need to be in the 7" range as normal.

We need the wording, to know whether that one additional unit can take a Soulburst action, or whether another unit within 7" of the dead one can also trigger their strength from death rule.

the wording is "includes 7 or more units, you can select on additional unit to make a Soulburst action each time a unit is destroyed."

So by my understanding you could pick a unit from your bladehost have them be united in death and all 6 get one soulburst action that has to be the same, and a second (7th) unit to make a soulburst action. Now it doesn't make any mention of being in range, but I think that RAI would be that the 2nd unit needs to be with in the normal range to be eligible.

I don't mean to derail this thread, but does this mean that with the Ynari warhost, you don't have to be in range to soulburst?


This book desperately needs an FAQ, until then, I'll play RAI with my opponents, and make it clear to them that I am doing so.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I don't mean to derail this thread, but does this mean that with the Ynari warhost, you don't have to be in range to soulburst?


This book desperately needs an FAQ, until then, I'll play RAI with my opponents, and make it clear to them that I am doing so.

Agreed. If we assume that since the Reborn Host & Blade host formations do not require the 7" that normally permit the Soulburst action, then the Reborn Host would easy become the top unbeatable army in 40K.
All it takes is 1 Soulburst and suddenly, your WK & Scatterbikes (that were halfway across the table) get a free shooting action....probably in your opponents turn.
This could allow you to take out a vital shooting unit, or assault a unit that relies on charge bonuses like Furious Charge or HoW. Potentially neutering your opponent before they can react.

We most definitely need an FAQ that says Soulburst
A) can never be used by vehicles,
B) does not allow a model to attack twice (kind of obvious)
C) requires the unit using the Soulburst to be eligible to Soulburst (i.e. must be in range of the unit destroyed) and
D) Is able to normally do the action selected, so no assaulting after shooting a Rapidfire weapon, or doing anything after Turbo boosting.

BTW, I think it is interesting that the Blade Host says that all units get to do the action chosen, rather than they all get to Soulburst. So if you choose to shoot again, the Incubi are meh. If you choose to assault the Dire Avengers are meh.

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 gummyofallbears wrote:
I don't mean to derail this thread, but does this mean that with the Ynari warhost, you don't have to be in range to soulburst? .

The Bladehost formation implies that ONE unit must be within the 7" of something that was destroyed, but all the other ones that get to do THE SAME ACTION as the first one (so if it's shoot, they must all shoot). For that they don't have to be within 7", they aren't activating a Soulburst - based on how I read it. So yes, we need an FAQ!

The Reborn warhost is more vague. If you have 7 units or more in this detachment, one extra unit can be chosen to make a Soulburst action if it has Strength from Death - I assume this means it also must be within 7" of the dead unit, as choosing to take a Soulburst action requires the Strength from Death rule.

GW, come out and write!

Warhanna wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I don't mean to derail this thread, but does this mean that with the Ynari warhost, you don't have to be in range to soulburst? .

The Bladehost formation implies that ONE unit must be within the 7" of something that was destroyed, but all the other ones that get to do THE SAME ACTION as the first one (so if it's shoot, they must all shoot). For that they don't have to be within 7", they aren't activating a Soulburst - based on how I read it. So yes, we need an FAQ!

The Reborn warhost is more vague. If you have 7 units or more in this detachment, one extra unit can be chosen to make a Soulburst action if it has Strength from Death - I assume this means it also must be within 7" of the dead unit, as choosing to take a Soulburst action requires the Strength from Death rule.

GW, come out and write!

You bring up a good point. Only 1 unit in the Blade Host is actually preforming a Soulburst, the other units are merely gaining that same action, but not actual using Soulburst.
That makes it much easier to apply only 1 additional unit if taking in the Reborn host.

 Galef wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I don't mean to derail this thread, but does this mean that with the Ynari warhost, you don't have to be in range to soulburst?


This book desperately needs an FAQ, until then, I'll play RAI with my opponents, and make it clear to them that I am doing so.

Agreed. If we assume that since the Reborn Host & Blade host formations do not require the 7" that normally permit the Soulburst action, then the Reborn Host would easy become the top unbeatable army in 40K.
All it takes is 1 Soulburst and suddenly, your WK & Scatterbikes (that were halfway across the table) get a free shooting action....probably in your opponents turn.
This could allow you to take out a vital shooting unit, or assault a unit that relies on charge bonuses like Furious Charge or HoW. Potentially neutering your opponent before they can react.

We most definitely need an FAQ that says Soulburst
A) can never be used by vehicles,
B) does not allow a model to attack twice (kind of obvious)
C) requires the unit using the Soulburst to be eligible to Soulburst (i.e. must be in range of the unit destroyed) and
D) Is able to normally do the action selected, so no assaulting after shooting a Rapidfire weapon, or doing anything after Turbo boosting.

BTW, I think it is interesting that the Blade Host says that all units get to do the action chosen, rather than they all get to Soulburst. So if you choose to shoot again, the Incubi are meh. If you choose to assault the Dire Avengers are meh.

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the one with dire avengers and incubi is the soulbound vanguard, the Bladehost formation is storm guardians/black guardians, wyches, and troupes. Still meh for shooting on wyches, but assaulting gets bonuses for assaulting the same unit and (with the exception of shooting black guardians) all 3 units are better in assault.

Also with the Chosen warriors (+1 WS and BS if visarch/yvraine are in the unit) and vigour of old (withing in 7 inches of other units gets furious charge) even dire avengers do pretty well in assault.

 Galef wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

The Ynnari Warhost rule states that when one model makes a Soulburst action, an additional one may do so. This does not reference the same Strength from Death restrictions (the same with Word of the Phoenix, btw). Which also brings up another question: If a Bladehost is taken as part of a Reborn Warhost, does a United in Death maneuver let only one additional unit Soulburst, or one per each unit that participates in United in Death?

Oh wow. Do you have the wording for the Ynnari Warhost bonus? If it does say each time "a unit" makes a Soulburst action, an additional one may do so, that can get pretty ridiculous.
So you'd only need 1 unit from the Bladehost to get a Soulburst action for 7 more to do so (the other 3 from the Bladehost, plus 1 additional unit for each of those in the Blade host)

You could basically get your own mini-turn inside of the opponents turn.

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If this detachment includes 7 or more units, you can select one additional unit to make a Soulburst action each time a unit is destroyed.

In other words, if a Troupe from the Aeldari Bladehost (taken as part of the Reborn detachment) kills a unit in melee, then the entire Aeldari Bladehost may make the Soulburst action as well as one additional unit.

 Happyjew wrote:

In other words, if a Troupe from the Aeldari Bladehost (taken as part of the Reborn detachment) kills a unit in melee, then the entire Aeldari Bladehost may make the Soulburst action as well as one additional unit.

Yes that looks right, though the first 7 have to do the same action as each other, but the additional one from the reborn rule can do something different if it wants.