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At the request of the mods I started a fresh thread:

The issue of time exploiting in tournament games has been getting a lot of attention again lately and TO's are already looking into how to best integrate chess clocks into their events. Found below is a condensed version of the open source rules discussed in the previous thread. TO's who want to use chess clocks to enhance their tournaments and eliminate time exploiting can simply copy and paste the rules below.

Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0

When does time start?


Time starts when the first pregame action or dice roll happens.

Rules:

1. Each player is responsible for their own time. It is a player’s right but not their obligation to make sure that their time is being handled properly.

2. In the assault phase, a player may always choose to forego rolling to determine the results of a combat, starting with the player whose turn it is. If they choose to save their time this way, their opponent may decide the results of the assault. This can range from leaving the enemy unit unharmed, up to removing the entire unit involved in the combat. This must be decided before any rolls are made in the combat.

3. Any major rule dispute results in a paused time scenario. The time is to remain paused until a formal judge is called to the table and resolves the dispute.

4. If a player’s time runs out, they may not perform any more actions. The only exception is if they are in the middle of moving a unit, they may finish so that the unit is placed legally on the board. As an example, this can include moving a unit in the movement phase, finishing moving a unit into assault (note they will not be able to attack), or consolidating a unit. Any other action is immediately stopped.

5. If a player runs out of time they may only perform the following actions:

a. Involuntary moves to keep them one inch from the enemy, such as reacting to a tank shock.
b. Pile in moves.
c. Making saving throws, and taking a leadership test if required to.
d. Scoring objectives that they have already achieved or already hold.

The most important rule is rule number 1. This is the most important rule because it puts time in your control, and fairly allocates time while players interact. It is each player's right to pass the time to his opponent whenever they are making an action or spending time making a decision.
Some examples of this are as follows:

1. You put 20 wounds on a unit containing multiple independent characters and models with different saving throws. Pass the clock to your opponent so he can make his look out sir rolls and saving throws.

2. Your opponent must make 3 leadership tests after the shooting phase is over. Pass the clock to your opponent while he makes these tests and moves the units which failed.

3. You destroy a vehicle and your opponent has a large squad inside that he wants positioned just right. Pass the clock to him while he arranges his models.

4. You do 5 power fist wounds and 5 regular wounds to a unit that contains independent characters that might be affected by instant death. Pass the clock to your opponent while he decides what saves to take on which models.

These examples are limited but show the basic concept. You manage your own time and it is up to you to pass the clock. If you burn your own time, it is not your opponents fault.

When does the game end?


Games end naturally depending on random game length rolls or at the start of a new turn when neither player has greater than 5:00 minutes of time left on the clock.


As always feedback is welcome and I will try and answer any questions that people have.
 Filename Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0.docx [Disk] Download
 Description Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0
 File size 13 Kbytes

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/02/24 04:02:00


 
   
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I had a question on your first rule. Sometimes, mandatory things will happen in a player's turn that would benefit their opponent - for instance, a unit continuing to fall back. So, can you really have a blanket rule that says a player can always pass a turn?

An even more game-impacting example is, let's say a close combat is going on that your opponent wants to end so that he can shoot at your unit. If you're allowed to pass that phase (or any action within it) it could be a huge advantage to you.

So, I think you might want to amend that part. I can see putting in a note that a player can simply forgo any non-mandatory elements of their turn (just like they could in any game - for instance, none of my units are going to shoot this turn!) but they should not be allowed to forgo mandatory phases / actions / etc, such as ongoing combats.

There's a few grammar items that could use cleaning up too, and you'd want to have some groups playtest it in different places if possible. But as a draft it is interesting to me - the examples are good, as well.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/18 15:57:14


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t wrote:
At the request of the mods I started a fresh thread:

The issue of time exploiting in tournament games has been getting a lot of attention again lately and TO's are already looking into how to best integrate chess clocks into their events..


No TOs aren't. Citation needed from you.

This is just some chess clock fetish you have.

This recent post is just as cumbersome and unnecessary as your thread from a year ago.

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 RiTides wrote:
I had a question on your first rule. Sometimes, mandatory things will happen in a player's turn that would benefit their opponent - for instance, a unit continuing to fall back. So, can you really have a blanket rule that says a player can always pass a turn?

An even more game-impacting example is, let's say a close combat is going on that your opponent wants to end so that he can shoot at your unit. If you're allowed to pass that phase (or any action within it) it could be a huge advantage to you.

So, I think you might want to amend that part. I can see putting in a note that a player can simply forgo any non-mandatory elements of their turn (just like they could in any game - for instance, none of my units are going to shoot this turn!) but they should not be allowed to forgo mandatory phases / actions / etc, such as ongoing combats.

There's a few grammar items that could use cleaning up too, and you'd want to have some groups playtest it in different places if possible. But as a draft it is interesting to me - the examples are good, as well.



You make an excellent points thank your for the questions, feedback like yours is what makes open sourcing work.

The fall back issue has never come up in any test game because no one has ever passed an entire turn and I can see how an exploiter might try and take advantage of the pass rule to their advantage in the assault phase. The rule in spirit is like you described, its intended to allow a player low on time the ability to pass trivial actions but not forgo mandatory negative obligations like falling back. I don't think the rules should be to cumbersome but I do think they should be harsh on people that try and exploit them.

This wording should be more clear.

A player can always pass a phase or action during their player turn but if they do all mandatory rolls during that phase, such as morale checks from falling back, are considered to fail and any mandatory actions as a result of these failures must be performed. Additionally, if a player decides to pass their assault phase their units are considered unable to fight and are destroyed regardless of any special rules or circumstances.

Think that covers it?

As for the grammar, I am horrible at it and I always have been. Any critique in that area is greatly appreciated.
   
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You say that major rules questions pause both clocks, but what about minor rules questions? Whose clock runs when a "what's that unit's stat line" or "is there LOS" type of question comes up?

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What if it's my opponent's turn and he is in the movement phase, but I need to take a bathroom break? What if he refuse to move his minis when I am gone? What if I told him to move the minis while I was gone?

Whose clock is used when I complain about him using my clock?

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 Peregrine wrote:
You say that major rules questions pause both clocks, but what about minor rules questions? Whose clock runs when a "what's that unit's stat line" or "is there LOS" type of question comes up?


Great question, so during the normal course of the game you have the right but not the obligation to pass the clock. During a normal functioning game there is no reason to pass the clock for small issues like you described. The amount of time used for these types of minor questions should be irrelevant throughout the course of a tournament game. However if you have a opponent that is unprepared, unsporting, excessively argumentative or that you feel is trying to exploit the system then you have the right to pass them the clock. This is what makes the clock so great, you control your own time and an opponent cannot waste it.

A quick examples of when I would expect the clock to be passed to me from my opponent for los:

If there is a tight call and I have to go to my opponents side of the table to see for myself, then I would fully expect to have to do this on my own time, every time. But ultimately it is up to my opponent to make that decisions and pass me the clock because he controls his own time.

A note about disputes:

If a dispute escalates and cannot be resolved sportingly and civilly then pause the clock and call a judge. Hopefully the judge can deescalate the situation, but if they are unable to then it has nothing to do with the clock and everything to do with you and your opponent and it will be up to the judges on how to proceed.
   
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I think you've over complicated this. Even if we use chess clocks, we should just follow the chess rule: if you run out of time you lose. All this voluntary/involuntary stuff just muddies the water and is unnecessary.

If a player runs out of time, the tournament should proceed as if that player was tabled and use whatever rules it has for that.
   
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Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote:
I think you've over complicated this. Even if we use chess clocks, we should just follow the chess rule: if you run out of time you lose. All this voluntary/involuntary stuff just muddies the water and is unnecessary.

If a player runs out of time, the tournament should proceed as if that player was tabled and use whatever rules it has for that.


I agree, having time just end is much cleaner but it is also much harsher. These are just baseline rules, If a TO wants to tweak any rule I encourage them to. TO's ultimately decide what is best for their event.

At the end of the day a competitive tournaments will be greatly enhanced by using chess clocks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kronk wrote:
What if it's my opponent's turn and he is in the movement phase, but I need to take a bathroom break? What if he refuse to move his minis when I am gone? What if I told him to move the minis while I was gone?

Whose clock is used when I complain about him using my clock?


"What if it's my opponent's turn and he is in the movement phase, but I need to take a bathroom break? What if he refuse to move his minis when I am gone? What if I told him to move the minis while I was gone?"

This is a sportsmanship question and has nothing to do with chess clocks. I would suggest starting a sportsmanship thread and see what people think about taking bathroom breaks during tournament games.

Your second question is very general and I don't really understand what you are asking. However, I will try and answer it the best I can.

"Whose clock is used when I complain about him using my clock?"

It is not possible for your opponent to use your time, It is 100% under your control. If they are using your time then you are letting them and you should be OK with that and have nothing to complain about.

Hope these answers help.

As for your previous comment:

"This is just some chess clock fetish you have. "

Fetish? What?I hope this Is this meant to be a joke. The whole intention of this thread is to help the tournament community solve the rampant time exploit problem, while treating both players equally and fairly and having all games end naturally. Chess clocks solve all of these issues elegantly and take nothing from the tournament game. The reason I feel that these issues need to be solved is because it will help the tournament scene grow and prosper.

In life I choose to part of and work towards solutions, not problems, that is just the way I am.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/02/19 15:23:39


 
   
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t wrote:
During a normal functioning game there is no reason to pass the clock for small issues like you described.


Of course there is, and that reason is simple: all the "small issues" add up to larger issues, especially if I'm creating as many small issues as possible to force you to spend clock time resolving them.

However if you have a opponent that is unprepared, unsporting, excessively argumentative or that you feel is trying to exploit the system then you have the right to pass them the clock.


So you don't have a system where it is indisputably clear which player's clock should be running. If there's some arbitrary line where it's "too much" and you get to pass the clock then it's no longer a system that runs itself, the players have to make ongoing decisions about what is "fair". And hey, you think you're going to pass me the clock while we're disputing something? Hell no, I'm passing it right back to you so you can spend more of your own time. Now we get to argue about whose clock should be running, and if you dare to pass the clock to me I'm going to immediately pass it back. Call a judge, but you'd better make sure your own clock is running while you do it.

If there is a tight call and I have to go to my opponents side of the table to see for myself, then I would fully expect to have to do this on my own time, every time.


IOW, I'm going to call LOS in my favor every single time, no matter how obviously it's in your favor, and force you to spend time off your clock coming around to my side of the table to dispute it. Alternatively, if you're concerned about your clock running out, you can just give me my choice of LOS in every situation, no matter how obviously absurd, because you can't afford to spend time disputing it. And while we're at it I'm going to be getting better rules for all of my units, since I don't think you can afford to spend clock time flipping through my codex to prove me wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/20 07:58:36


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If TOs are having a hard time fitting games in under the time limit (and this appears to be conjecture on your part anyway), they have 2 options:

1. Extend the time limit. This isn't always practical.

2. Reduce the size of armies. I'd love to see this at more tournaments. Over the last 5-10 years I've seen a steady rise in the average tournament points size and I'm not sure it's healthy for the game.

But I digress. One thing I'm sure isn't a solution is developing a convoluted set of extra rules and regulations to try to shoehorn chess clocks into a game not built for them.
   
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it works great for Warmachine. Difference being that in war machine there are no armour saves to be made. If it weren't for saving throws I would tend to agree that it would work well. The way the editions have gone with closest model and multiple saves one at a time kind of rolling it just doesn't seem like a good fit for 40K. If you ever try it I'd be interested in how it went and player feedback though.

I think a lowering in points is the best option for time.

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@peregrine

"So you don't have a system where it is indisputably clear which player's clock should be running. If there's some arbitrary line where it's "too much" and you get to pass the clock then it's no longer a system that runs itself, the players have to make ongoing decisions about what is "fair". And hey, you think you're going to pass me the clock while we're disputing something? Hell no, I'm passing it right back to you so you can spend more of your own time. Now we get to argue about whose clock should be running, and if you dare to pass the clock to me I'm going to immediately pass it back. Call a judge, but you'd better make sure your own clock is running while you do it."

It is very clear, you control your own time. There is nothing to argue about, passing is expected and becomes second nature. What your describing here is a severe sportsmanship issue and not a clock issue at all. When a judge is called the clock is paused so no one is on the clock. The judge can deal with severe sportsmanship issues in the way they see fit.

"IOW, I'm going to call LOS in my favor every single time, no matter how obviously it's in your favor, and force you to spend time off your clock coming around to my side of the table to dispute it. Alternatively, if you're concerned about your clock running out, you can just give me my choice of LOS in every situation, no matter how obviously absurd, because you can't afford to spend time disputing it. And while we're at it I'm going to be getting better rules for all of my units, since I don't think you can afford to spend clock time flipping through my codex to prove me wrong."

Again this is not a clock issue, the first part is a severe sportsmanship issue and border line cheating. The second part is just flat out cheating. Neither of these abhorrent tactics would work anyway because it would just result in a paused clock. I would expect a player cheating in this manor to be dealt with harshly by the judges. Another beautiful way that clocks enhance tournaments is that this type of preposterous behavior is easily identified by the judges. The reason for this is because the clock on that game will be way behind the rest of the field due to exorbitant amounts of pausing. As outrages as these examples are, they still would not be able to abuse the system and waste your opponents time.
   
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You can't just handwave away criticism with "that's a sportsmanship issue". If your clock rule only works when everyone has "good sportsmanship" and nobody tries to break the system then it isn't a viable tournament rule.

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I appreciate the spirit of the idea, but I'd rather fix the game than play on the clock.
   
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So your issue is "time exploitation" i.e. poor sportsmanship. Your solution is a vague set of rules for using a chess clock, which can be easily exploited by poor sportsmen. Your solution to that problem is to have a judge come and make rulings on the sportsmanship.

Why not cut out the middle-man so to speak and have the judge come and fix the original problem and ditch the clocks?
   
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Is the amount of time each person is given a set value of arbitrary depending on the army they use.

A baronial court will play much quicker than GSC but are you going to restrict the amount of time the horde player has because the amount of time each player has should be fair and even.
   
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I don't think "time exploitation" is an issue. The number of people playing deliberately slow to harm their opponent must pale in comparison to the people attempting to play armies of essentially 2500-3000pts in 2 1/2 hours.

Chess clocks work for Chess where there's no interaction. They work OK for warmachine, where there's only a dozen times per game you give the clock to your opponent.

The problem with clocks in 40k is the amount of stuff I can make you do in my turn, that runs down your clock without you having a choice.

Or technically you could have a choice. You could not intercept. Not overwatch. Not deny. Not take look out sirs. Not attack back in combat... and lose with a lot of time on your clock.

I completely agree with the ideas that, in a fair game, both players have equal time. Both players should construct armies that they know they can play in the time limit. Yes, it sucks that a lot of people can't do that with a Orc horde, but its about being considerate to your opponent.
HOWEVER, 40k is not the game to do that with. An army that you can play in an hour vs one opponent can take you two hours vs the next, through no fault of your own.

If you're serious about chess clocks, look up the Warmachine steamroller rules. Make it simple. If you time out, you lose, thats it. The clock stops only when a TO presses stop.

   
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We've played games where only the movement phase was timed (since the other player has less interaction) and instead of a turn by turn basis we've had a running total for the entire game, such as 45 minutes or an hour. We tried it just so people would be conscious of wasting time during their turn. It actually adds to the sense of urgency without too much penalty. If one moves quickly enough for a few turns there will be more time for later turns and tougher decisions.
   
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 kestral wrote:
I appreciate the spirit of the idea, but I'd rather fix the game than play on the clock.


If I am a player and in several HtH's that are continuing from the other player that I will lose it would behoove me to take my sweet time and never get to the HtH portion.

And I would do that all the time, every time.

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t,

Im playing drop pods, youre playing imperial knights. I drop around you and wall you in with my open doors. Finish my turn.

Your time starts.
Your movement phase
You try to walk over my DP doors.
I say no you cant.
Rules dispute. Whose time counts down? Yours?
Whats to keep me from lawyering your time clock rules with douchey disputes?

Or conversely. Its my turn. I move all my devs 10". You say no you cant. They only move 6". I respond I believe you are mistaken. Dispute. Whose time counts down there? Mine?

Also Autofails work to certain army's advantages. Hell its better than hit and run in some cases.

More rules = more lawyers.
   
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I played Bolt Action with a chess clock.
We had an hour each for our time.
So we knew we needed about 10 minutes for 6 turns, it was about a minute and a few seconds per unit... whew!
There was the option to pause for major rules look-up, we both elected to donate time (or the other guy look-up while the active player keeps doing what he can).
It was good for keeping to some measure of schedule and helped me quickly develop good efficiency habits.
I would say it will not protect against people who will "game" the rules themselves but sure helps a tournament keep some measure of schedule.

It is nice to post some rules but seem a bit cumbersome.

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As someone who has run tournaments for a long time, I'd look at these rules and ask "Do the perceived benefits outweigh the additional complexity?" In this case, I think the answer is no. You provide an inelegant solution that can be gamed in multiple ways (as other posters have demonstrated) for no clear benefit given the dozens of match up combinations.

I much prefer Fennel's simple solution: at the 15 minutes left mark, start a timer for each player. They each get 7 minutes and 30 seconds to play. Once you are out of time, you may no longer take any actions. This means that your opponent may take an extra half turn if he has time left and you do not. It speeds up the end of the game to critical actions and implicitly penalizes slow play.

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 doktor_g wrote:
t,

Im playing drop pods, youre playing imperial knights. I drop around you and wall you in with my open doors. Finish my turn.

Your time starts.
Your movement phase
You try to walk over my DP doors.
I say no you cant.
Rules dispute. Whose time counts down? Yours?
Whats to keep me from lawyering your time clock rules with douchey disputes?

Or conversely. Its my turn. I move all my devs 10". You say no you cant. They only move 6". I respond I believe you are mistaken. Dispute. Whose time counts down there? Mine?

Also Autofails work to certain army's advantages. Hell its better than hit and run in some cases.

More rules = more lawyers.


"Your time starts.
Your movement phase
You try to walk over my DP doors.
I say no you cant.
Rules dispute. Whose time counts down? Yours?"

Well since I have read the FAQ and know that you can I would just move my model. If you are insistent then I would pause the clock and call a judge. None of my clock would be wasted.

"Whats to keep me from lawyering your time clock rules with douchey disputes?"

Its really simple, you cant, I would either pass the clock to you or pause it and call a judge. You have the right under these rules to pass the clock its really very simple and clear.

"Or conversely. Its my turn. I move all my devs 10". You say no you cant. They only move 6". I respond I believe you are mistaken. Dispute. Whose time counts down there? Mine"

This is not an example of a rules dispute this is straight cheating. None of my time would be wasted but some of yours would. As soon as you make the absurd comment that infantry can move 10" indicating that the move was not a mistake. I would pause the clock and get a judge. If you continued to cheat in this manor, the judge I assume would stay at the table and most likely toss you from the tournament.

I really recommend that you just try the rules, they work very well.

Some Great news.

The Rampager League, Chicago's largest monthly tournament league has decided to use clocks at their events starting this Sunday. This makes the second monthly tournament league in Chicago to use clocks to enhance their events. We plan on finalizing the rules tomorrow and I will update the base rules on this post to reflect any changes made.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/02/22 06:24:03


 
   
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t wrote:
Its really simple, you cant, I would either pass the clock to you or pause it and call a judge. You have the right under these rules to pass the clock its really very simple and clear.


If you have the right to pass the clock then I have the right to pass it right back to you as soon as you try. You seem to believe that "you have the right to pass the clock" is an explanation for everything, and it really isn't. It doesn't do anything to address the question of whose clock should be running.

And yes, you can call a judge. But then I un-pause your clock because you're obviously stalling, using the judge call to buy yourself time to think. Even if you can successfully keep your clock paused the result is going to be a lot more judge calls, because instead of resolving disputes between the players every single argument, no matter how minor, requires a judge call because anything else means letting precious time run off your clock. What are you going to do, have a judge dedicated to every table? Or are you just going to have rounds that take longer than if you ditched the clock idea, because your poor over-worked judge can't get to everything fast enough?

As soon as you make the absurd comment that infantry can move 10" indicating that the move was not a mistake.


Of course infantry can't move 10", that's why I moved them 6". What, you think that 6" looks more like 10"? How much clock time are you willing to spend to argue about this?

And no, the judge isn't going to disqualify me for cheating. It's my word against yours that the models moved 6" from their starting point, and once the models have moved a third party can't reconstruct their original position. It's possible that I'm cheating, and it's equally possible that you're cheating and trying to take movement distance away from me. And the judge isn't going to sit there watching the whole game because they're going to be needed for the countless other minor rules disputes that are happening simultaneously, the ones that used to be handled without a judge call in the pre-clock era.

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Over there...

t wrote:

Well since I have read the FAQ and know that you can I would just move my model. If you are insistent then I would pause the clock and call a judge. None of my clock would be wasted.

Well, none of your clock, other than the bit up to the point where you pause the clock and call the judge.

It's incredibly easy for a player to just nibble away at your time with little disputes like that. Every single little rules query, regardless of whether or not you get as far as calling a judge, is using a little bit of your clock.



Even with that aside, I'm really not seeing what you gain from this. The stress of worrying about the clock the whole game would be enough to encourage me to simply skip the event, to be honest. Making sure the rounds are long enough for the size of the game is a far better, and simpler, option.

   
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While I agree with the majority that chess clocks seem overkill for what is a minor problem with more effective solutions I do think a lot of the negative comments have been rather, shall we say, bizarre.

I don't think the mere presence of chess clocks is suddenly going to create a room of TFGs as people seem to be implying. There is a legitimate problem that it creates more complexity and more uncertainty for people who are already TFG to exploit but maybe a little bit of a reality check is in order?

If you're really willing to move your infantry 10" and claim you didn't that's not a problem with chess clocks.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Future Magic Skull-faced Space Knight Monk Man






Over there...

Slipspace wrote:
I don't think the mere presence of chess clocks is suddenly going to create a room of TFGs as people seem to be implying.

That's not what people are implying.

What's being said is that people inclined to slow play aren't necessarily going to change their ways just because of the clock, because it's just too easy to game the system.


So you're taking what is ultimately a very minor issue, and addressing it with a needlessly complicated 'solution' that doesn't actually do anything to fix it.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Pre Heresy Black Templar Librarian






North of Chicago, IL USA

t wrote:
Some Great news.

The Rampager League, Chicago's largest monthly tournament league has decided to use clocks at their events starting this Sunday. This makes the second monthly tournament league in Chicago to use clocks to enhance their events. We plan on finalizing the rules tomorrow and I will update the base rules on this post to reflect any changes made.


Are you the TO for the Rampager League?

Edit: Please don't use yellow text. Some people prefer the white and blue DakkaDakka format, and you can't read yellow.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/22 12:54:13


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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 insaniak wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
I don't think the mere presence of chess clocks is suddenly going to create a room of TFGs as people seem to be implying.

That's not what people are implying.

What's being said is that people inclined to slow play aren't necessarily going to change their ways just because of the clock, because it's just too easy to game the system.


So you're taking what is ultimately a very minor issue, and addressing it with a needlessly complicated 'solution' that doesn't actually do anything to fix it.


Outright cheating over how far your models move isn't slow play, though - it's cheating. The implication was people will go from playing a bit slowly to blatant cheating backed-up by bare-faced lying, which is riduculous. My point was this is obfuscating the problems with the proposed system (of which there are many) and is therefore unhelpful.
   
 
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