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Without Scoria as an option, how are you folks stopping 2 Spartans full of Firedrakes, one of which has Vulkan in it at 2kish/2500?

1) How do you stop the Spartan before turn 2 /OR/ if not, how do you deal with the angry bees that come out?

2) Once you have unhorsed / somehow endured the assault of the units in question, how do you kill them?

More pertinently, don't just tell me to 'play the mission' because that's a non-answer. I am truly trying to see if Mechanicum can handle this army list or if it's really a case where there are zero options other than 'play the mission'.

Vultarax and than thanatars for cybernetics

Graviton implodes and Krios for targmata and Reductor

Mechanicum actually has an ungodly amount of anti tank and ap2 available

In fact mechanicum weak suite is playing the mission. Mechanicum is the most killy army out there just shoot them with what you have.

Spammed Triaros full of tech thralls with RoPT, Rev Alchem and a Lacyr tech priest. Ram and tarpit, ram and tarpit.

Possibly also bring Ursarax to pf open the tanks or Arlatax with the Armourbane whips to also get stuck in and just moshpit them and tie them up for the whole game, anything that finally fights clear, shell/shoot to death with what else you brought. Thanatar Hellex mortars do terrible things to terminators out in the open.

Vulturax will also do all sorts of nasty to spartans with haywire.

In my experience, CCing a Spartan or Primarch is far too late, and the Venators can't hurt them through flare shields.

I also tried Imploders, but found that even if you immobilize the spartan, you are FAR too close already, even with an 18" range

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
In my experience, CCing a Spartan or Primarch is far too late, and the Venators can't hurt them through flare shields.

I also tried Imploders, but found that even if you immobilize the spartan, you are FAR too close already, even with an 18" range

You should be moving Venators to get side shots in which case a spartan is dead in the water. Also the implovers while good on a vehicle aren't meant for it implodes make death stars cry there is a reason the same weapon dominated the 40k meta. 5 myrmidons puts out 20 shots with prefered enemy wounding on 2s ignoring armour it outs down units.

Anacharis Scoria

Titanicus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
In my experience, CCing a Spartan or Primarch is far too late, and the Venators can't hurt them through flare shields.

I also tried Imploders, but found that even if you immobilize the spartan, you are FAR too close already, even with an 18" range

You should be moving Venators to get side shots in which case a spartan is dead in the water. Also the implovers while good on a vehicle aren't meant for it implodes make death stars cry there is a reason the same weapon dominated the 40k meta. 5 myrmidons puts out 20 shots with prefered enemy wounding on 2s ignoring armour it outs down units.

The Venators aren't always guaranteed to get side shots; that's heavily dependent on deployment and terrain; if Hammer & Anvil is played, for example, there is little space to the 'sides'. On most of the tables we play with in our local meta, most things have a 4+ save on their side arc (since people deliberately position things that way). So unreliable indeed. Any better options to destroy the tank?

And yes, imploders will hurt the unit, but if you don't wreck the tank then the imploders won't get to fire at the unit - it'll drive right up and then said unit will be in combat before the next shooting phase.

Azeroth133 wrote:Anacharis Scoria

Is explicitly not an option given my OP, if you had read it.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Titanicus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
In my experience, CCing a Spartan or Primarch is far too late, and the Venators can't hurt them through flare shields.

I also tried Imploders, but found that even if you immobilize the spartan, you are FAR too close already, even with an 18" range

You should be moving Venators to get side shots in which case a spartan is dead in the water. Also the implovers while good on a vehicle aren't meant for it implodes make death stars cry there is a reason the same weapon dominated the 40k meta. 5 myrmidons puts out 20 shots with prefered enemy wounding on 2s ignoring armour it outs down units.

The Venators aren't always guaranteed to get side shots; that's heavily dependent on deployment and terrain; if Hammer & Anvil is played, for example, there is little space to the 'sides'. On most of the tables we play with in our local meta, most things have a 4+ save on their side arc (since people deliberately position things that way). So unreliable indeed. Any better options to destroy the tank?

And yes, imploders will hurt the unit, but if you don't wreck the tank then the imploders won't get to fire at the unit - it'll drive right up and then said unit will be in combat before the next shooting phase.

Azeroth133 wrote:Anacharis Scoria

Is explicitly not an option given my OP, if you had read it.

If you are playing Reductor Medusas can do some damage due to barrage ordinance s10 ap2 especially with the bonus trait from a Reductor Warlord.

Personally I'm running Calleb with Grav destructors. Calleb can shoot the 2d6 haywire attacks then I'd shoot off 20 Grav shots.

The other option if you really want something dead is an ordinatus/warhound/Porphyrion all of which cost less than a primarch deathstar

Titanicus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Titanicus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
In my experience, CCing a Spartan or Primarch is far too late, and the Venators can't hurt them through flare shields.

I also tried Imploders, but found that even if you immobilize the spartan, you are FAR too close already, even with an 18" range

You should be moving Venators to get side shots in which case a spartan is dead in the water. Also the implovers while good on a vehicle aren't meant for it implodes make death stars cry there is a reason the same weapon dominated the 40k meta. 5 myrmidons puts out 20 shots with prefered enemy wounding on 2s ignoring armour it outs down units.

The Venators aren't always guaranteed to get side shots; that's heavily dependent on deployment and terrain; if Hammer & Anvil is played, for example, there is little space to the 'sides'. On most of the tables we play with in our local meta, most things have a 4+ save on their side arc (since people deliberately position things that way). So unreliable indeed. Any better options to destroy the tank?

And yes, imploders will hurt the unit, but if you don't wreck the tank then the imploders won't get to fire at the unit - it'll drive right up and then said unit will be in combat before the next shooting phase.

Azeroth133 wrote:Anacharis Scoria

Is explicitly not an option given my OP, if you had read it.

If you are playing Reductor Medusas can do some damage due to barrage ordinance s10 ap2 especially with the bonus trait from a Reductor Warlord.

Personally I'm running Calleb with Grav destructors. Calleb can shoot the 2d6 haywire attacks then I'd shoot off 20 Grav shots.

The other option if you really want something dead is an ordinatus/warhound/Porphyrion all of which cost less than a primarch deathstar

I don't want to take Decima because I am traitor, so poop.

Also, the Lords of War you mentioned are unavailable at 2k (Ordinatus and warhound) or helpless against flare shields (porphyrion).

I guess you could always take a kraken lighting or avenger as we do get access to those.

Two spartans loaded up with a primarch and two squads of firedrakes, how many points is that? He must only have enough points for maybe two tactical squads. Kill those scoring units and spend the rest of the game running away while scoring minimal objectives for the win.

If you load up on expensive units to try to counter the death stars, you're playing into their hands. If you take cheap units in small squads or big, cheap tarpit squads you're going to come out ahead on objectives.

I really like the idea of loading up transports with the cheap, fearless cyborgs and shoving them into the death stars. If you jump out of your ride and inhibit the land raider movement, the dudes inside have to get out and punch your cheap infantry. If they roll poorly enough, you might live more than 1 turn. If the land raiders try to tank shock you, I don't think the occupants can get out.

bogalubov wrote:
Two spartans loaded up with a primarch and two squads of firedrakes, how many points is that? He must only have enough points for maybe two tactical squads. Kill those scoring units and spend the rest of the game running away while scoring minimal objectives for the win.

If you load up on expensive units to try to counter the death stars, you're playing into their hands. If you take cheap units in small squads or big, cheap tarpit squads you're going to come out ahead on objectives.

I really like the idea of loading up transports with the cheap, fearless cyborgs and shoving them into the death stars. If you jump out of your ride and inhibit the land raider movement, the dudes inside have to get out and punch your cheap infantry. If they roll poorly enough, you might live more than 1 turn. If the land raiders try to tank shock you, I don't think the occupants can get out.

The purpose of thread is I belive the op wants to work a solution to handling this death star even if there are better strategies for winning. And honestly mechanicum due to their huge shooting output is one of the armies that can do it. Depending on the list also blowing up their transport and letting cataphracti which can't run footslog means they won't kill anything unless you feed it to them. (Also in kill point games you kind of have to go for a kill because he has so much points denial in that death star there isn't much else)

You shoot them. You shoot them to death. You ignore the rest of their army to shoot the Spartan, and the bodyguard+Primarch. Because if that Death Star makes it into close combat, it's going to get ugly really fast for you. Your best chance is to shoot it to death.

You could make an army that specifically tar pits his Deathstar (as MeanGreenStompa suggests), until you face someone without a Deathstar. I do it all the time. In a 2500 point game, if my opponent wants to sink 1000+ points into a Death Star unit, that's cool. I'll just ignore it as much as I can while killing the rest of his army and scoring VP's. Typical deathstars do only one thing- kill other deathstars. Sure, they can kill just about anything else on the table, but if they are in a Spartan, then the earliest they can get into close combat is Turn 2, and then if everything lined up perfectly for them, they could kill a unit a turn until the game is over (4-5 units). You don't "feed" a Deathstar! You run away from it as far and as fast as you can, and shoot it to death. Unless you have your own Deathstar. Then by all means! Showdown at the OK Corral.

Yes! You guys are getting it now.

But I am struggling in precisely how to blow up the transport - thouse things are tougher than Superheavies!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes! You guys are getting it now.

But I am struggling in precisely how to blow up the transport - thouse things are tougher than Superheavies!

Fair enough. Two vulteraxes will kill a spartan per turn. They come with enhanced targeting arrays, so you're hitting on 2s and stripping hull points on 2s. Once they get out you hit them with a thanatar plasma blast that will double out the terminators.

From my experience mechanicum have a pretty decent time against any primarch, even in CC assuming it's not one of the primarchs with ID on his weapon.

beyond that: vultrax neuter spartans, and with the sheer amount of barrage in the mechanicum list, you can put a hurtin' on 'em.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes! You guys are getting it now.

But I am struggling in precisely how to blow up the transport - thouse things are tougher than Superheavies!

Flare Shields only work against attacks in the front arc. Otherwise, it's an AV 14 vehicle with 5 HP.

One of the core tenants of of my list building is "Can I kill a Spartan with one round of shooting?" If the answer is no, then I remake my list so it can. I don't play Mechanicum, but you have to have some D-weapons somewhere that basically ignore the Flare shield and could pop the Spartan with one shot. Look for Graviton, Haywire, and Armorbane as well. These will do a number on a Spartan as well. Of all the armies in 30K, I feel that the Mechanicum should have the least trouble in taking out a Spartan and a Deathstar.

Getting side armour is an unreliable tactic against opponents with good sense and enough terrain.

Mechanicum D-weapons only exist on supremely expensive lords of war that cannot be taken at 2k.

Graviton and Haywire exist, but are of insufficient range imo to help much - I am going to get charged if I use those weapons - 18" just isn't far enough with disembark +(from wreck) move + charge. Vultarax are a good option but I was hoping to avoid bringing any Automata; even so, this may be the best option.

The only source of Armourbane is the Ordinator magos, which isn't a bad thought but without access to very good weapons for it, is disappointing.

Ordo Reductor can bring Medusae... which might just work...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Getting side armour is an unreliable tactic against opponents with good sense and enough terrain.

Mechanicum D-weapons only exist on supremely expensive lords of war that cannot be taken at 2k.

Graviton and Haywire exist, but are of insufficient range imo to help much - I am going to get charged if I use those weapons - 18" just isn't far enough with disembark +(from wreck) move + charge. Vultarax are a good option but I was hoping to avoid bringing any Automata; even so, this may be the best option.

The only source of Armourbane is the Ordinator magos, which isn't a bad thought but without access to very good weapons for it, is disappointing.

Ordo Reductor can bring Medusae... which might just work...

If you are Reductor the master of destruction trait vrings shooting straight into flair shields back as a viable option on Krios Venators as you can Grant then tank hunter. The unit also has ordinance so you are s9 ap2 with rerolls and a ton of shots should kill them. And yeah Medusas work pretty well could also give the tank hunter to them.

Titanicus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Getting side armour is an unreliable tactic against opponents with good sense and enough terrain.

Mechanicum D-weapons only exist on supremely expensive lords of war that cannot be taken at 2k.

Graviton and Haywire exist, but are of insufficient range imo to help much - I am going to get charged if I use those weapons - 18" just isn't far enough with disembark +(from wreck) move + charge. Vultarax are a good option but I was hoping to avoid bringing any Automata; even so, this may be the best option.

The only source of Armourbane is the Ordinator magos, which isn't a bad thought but without access to very good weapons for it, is disappointing.

Ordo Reductor can bring Medusae... which might just work...

If you are Reductor the master of destruction trait vrings shooting straight into flair shields back as a viable option on Krios Venators as you can Grant then tank hunter. The unit also has ordinance so you are s9 ap2 with rerolls and a ton of shots should kill them. And yeah Medusas work pretty well could also give the tank hunter to them.

Tank hunter doesn't help when you can't pen their armour. I have to destroy or immoblize 10 Flare-Shielded hull points - if I cannot do that reliably on the first turn of the game, then it isn't what I am looking for.

If only Mechanicum medusas had BB shells; I know you can replicate it with Master of Destruction but that only works on one tank in a 3-tank squadron

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Graviton and Haywire exist, but are of insufficient range imo to help much - I am going to get charged if I use those weapons - 18" just isn't far enough with disembark +(from wreck) move + charge. Vultarax are a good option but I was hoping to avoid bringing any Automata; even so, this may be the best option.

The only source of Armourbane is the Ordinator magos, which isn't a bad thought but without access to very good weapons for it, is disappointing.

Ordo Reductor can bring Medusae... which might just work...

You can give the Magos a conversion beamer. He also gets D3 orbital barrage shots. You can also give the conversion beamers to the Myrmidons for some long range shooting.

In terms of the 18 inch range for some of the weapons like the secutor graviton guns I have two points. Number one is that if they kill the spartan, they already paid for their points and expecting to win without taking some loses is a little over ambitious. Secondly, if you fire from maximum range and wreck the Spartan the closest the unit can deploy out of the transport is 15 inches away. With a 6 inch move, that's still a 9 inch charge. That turns into a 10 inch charge due to the Nocturn Born rule. If you either put terrain between you or deploy into terrain that becomes a 12 inch charge. So not a very likely event.

Perhaps. Extreme range can be difficult to achieve, sometimes, but yes.

Also, conversion beamers are garbage. If I go first, they deploy second and outside of the Str. 10 AP1 range. If I go second, then they move out of the Str. 10 Ap1 range; remember they are already deploying as close to me as possible anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additionally, being Blast, the bounce off of Flare Shields

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Perhaps. Extreme range can be difficult to achieve, sometimes, but yes.

Also, conversion beamers are garbage. If I go first, they deploy second and outside of the Str. 10 AP1 range. If I go second, then they move out of the Str. 10 Ap1 range; remember they are already deploying as close to me as possible anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additionally, being Blast, the bounce off of Flare Shields

All those points really depend on the deployment zone and how you deploy as well.

The community has provided you with a number of ideas to try, I think now you just need to play a few games and see what works and what doesn't.

Okay, true.

Do you think it is worth replacing Rad-Engine Myrmidons with Graviton Imploder myrmidons?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Okay, true.

Do you think it is worth replacing Rad-Engine Myrmidons with Graviton Imploder myrmidons?

Yes. Hitting on 2s and wounding on 2s with preferred enemy is pretty devastating even with a 3++. Also the rad-engine can't do anything to the land raider, but grav can finish off the last few hull points and at worst at least immobilize it and limit its mobility.

bogalubov wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Okay, true.

Do you think it is worth replacing Rad-Engine Myrmidons with Graviton Imploder myrmidons?

Yes. Hitting on 2s and wounding on 2s with preferred enemy is pretty devastating even with a 3++. Also the rad-engine can't do anything to the land raider, but grav can finish off the last few hull points and at worst at least immobilize it and limit its mobility.

Grav myrmidons are even better than that they have prefered enemy everything it's hitting and wounding on 2s with rerolls. No armour saves allowed doesn't give a damn about toughness and puts out a lot of wounds (4 shots a piece due to relentless)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

The only source of Armourbane is the Ordinator magos, which isn't a bad thought but without access to very good weapons for it, is disappointing.

Have you ever witness the marvel that is a Ordinator magos with a Photon thruster? I can not think of anything more reliable for taking out tanks, he just points and the tank gets one to two pens regardless of flare shield.

Xantalora wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

The only source of Armourbane is the Ordinator magos, which isn't a bad thought but without access to very good weapons for it, is disappointing.

Have you ever witness the marvel that is a Ordinator magos with a Photon thruster? I can not think of anything more reliable for taking out tanks, he just points and the tank gets one to two pens regardless of flare shield.

I have! I even stick him with Reductor Auxilia or Destructor Thallaxi for Tank Hunters. But he isn't relentless, so between him and his bodyguard it can get quite expensive.

I decided to go Ordo Reductor and try out the Three Medusa squadron, since Barrage hits side armour. I think that would be excellent against both the tank and the terminators.

The Myrmidons with grav are a good point; I am sticking with Rad Engines for now but may evolve to put some Imploders on. I may have to buy more Myrmidons. :X

Thats a bit of a bugger - didnt realise you dont get bastion-breacher shells. Those things are just amazing against spartans: auxilia heavy ordnance guns are just excellent anti-everything, and I just assumed the reductor artillery tanks would have the option too.

locarno24 wrote:
Thats a bit of a bugger - didnt realise you dont get bastion-breacher shells. Those things are just amazing against spartans: auxilia heavy ordnance guns are just excellent anti-everything, and I just assumed the reductor artillery tanks would have the option too.

Auxilia don't even get BB shells. It's really just Militia and their carriages; apparently the shells can't be fired from self-propelled platforms for some reason.