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I bought 0 and 00 sizes during my vacation to London, because I was impatient to wait Ebay and etc. Also I could not hold my horses, because literally everyone was telling me how amazingly good they are. The threads with new painters that post here are not 1 or 2 and the results are on the level of the pros, just because they started the hobby with Series 7. And why should I even question that? The brushes itself are piece of art coming in their long plastic tubes. The bristles looks like are in fantastic condition.
So Far so Good, but what was my surprised when I start working them. :(
Maybe I am not using them properly, but even my old abused GW (it's like really badly threated brush, soaked in alcohol paints and etc) brush perform way better than W&N. My first Issues with the brushes is that they can hardly soak any Paint, and yes I know 00 is too thin, but 0 is larger than Layer S GW brush and I still have issues applying paint. My worst nightmare with series 7 is the edge highlighting. I used both sizes for this purpose and the result is meh... The bristle have this shiny, almost greasy touch and it cannot hold paint. I cannot draw a straight lane without interrupting the edge lane (never had this problem with other brushes). Other problem is that the tip of the brush is constantly bending. I had this happening only with cheap end synthetic brushes and I was never expecting this from W&N. Some may say it is the Sable, but I have other Sable Brushes - the Russian Nevskaya Palitra which are a quarter of the price on W&N 7 and performs fantastic.
Maybe If you can help me out how to use them that will be great. Otherwise I will be forced to sell them.

I've found my Size 2 and Size 1 questionable, because the tip gets incredibly thin, making it impossible to do anything larger than extreme highlights. However, I've never had any issues with my Size 0 or Size 000.

Did you get the W&N S7 minis or regulars? Because the regulars are what you want. That might be your problem.

 DalinCriid wrote:
The threads with new painters that post here are not 1 or 2 and the results are on the level of the pros, just because they started the hobby with Series 7. And why should I even question that?

You should absolutely question that; an incredibly talented painter with beginner tools will still outpaint a novice with expert tools.

 DalinCriid wrote:

My first Issues with the brushes is that they can hardly soak any Paint, and yes I know 00 is too thin, but 0 is larger than Layer S GW brush and I still have issues applying paint. My worst nightmare with series 7 is the edge highlighting. I used both sizes for this purpose and the result is meh... The bristle have this shiny, almost greasy touch and it cannot hold paint. I cannot draw a straight lane without interrupting the edge lane (never had this problem with other brushes). .
Maybe If you can help me out how to use them that will be great. Otherwise I will be forced to sell them.

You bought tiny brushes, that are basically designed to do detail work (things like fine edge highlighting and pin washing for the Size 0, and for Size 00 painting eyes), they won't hold much paint at all. You'd have far better luck trying to use a larger brush; personally I think you should always paint with the largest brush possible.

Try giving them a clean with some brush soap, see if it helps eliminate the greasy feeling, it may also restore the tips. As for why they don't work, I expect you are probably not painting quite right (to the brushes that is). Series 7 brushes are watercolour brushes primarily, they are mostly designed to be using very thin paint with what amounts to an essentially low pigment counts. When you use paint like that you end up painting using very thin layers, or glazes and tints (hilariously termed "juicing" by the French) rather than the more traditional partly opaque layers we see in the GW painting style. So rather than 2 layers, you might do 6 or more to build colour.

 DalinCriid wrote:
Other problem is that the tip of the brush is constantly bending. I had this happening only with cheap end synthetic brushes and I was never expecting this from W&N. Some may say it is the Sable, but I have other Sable Brushes - the Russian Nevskaya Palitra which are a quarter of the price on W&N 7 and performs fantastic

What do you mean by bending? Are you referring to the bristles flexing while you are painting? or is the tip itself curling/ed while you are not painting?

As for if they are sable, W & N Series 7 Watercolour brushes are definitely kolinsky sable.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Did you get the W&N S7 minis or regulars? Because the regulars are what you want. That might be your problem.

Nothing specify what they are. Either on the brush handle or the plastic tube

I'm anxious to order my first Rosemary and Co. brushes as I've heard stellar things about them (and their price/shipping is fantastic - even to the U.S.).

I actually have three or four old GW brushes still in package from the late 90's (the red handled ones). They were pretty damn good, no idea who they were back then.

To be honest I mostly use cheaper Kolinsky brushes, but I do have use a Raphael 8404 4/0 which I use for fine detail work and it works great. No hook tips, paint flows off it smoothly, cleans out well and keeps it tip. It doesn't hold a lot of paint, well, because it's a 4/0 But holding paint isn't its job, for that sort of stuff I use a 1 or 2 size brush.

With any fine detail brush you need to keep the paint reasonably thin and it helps to add some flow improver and/or drying retarder.

Im gonna come in here and clarify your issues.

Now dont take this the wrong way when i say it but the reason you are having a bad time is because it sounds like you are using your brush wrong.

It sounds like you are painting with the tip of your brush, meaning your almost trying to draw the paint on, which is not how you should be painting with these brushes. When using a W&N you want to use the side of the brush and drag the paint across the surface you are painting. W&N hold a LOT of paint in them depending on the brush you bought, if your bought a round, the barrel of the brush is going to be very thick and hold a lot, if you bought the miniature brush, not so much.

Next time you give it a go, rather then trying to draw on the layer, drag the side of the brush over what oyu are painting and push the paint over the surface and let the brush pick it up once you finish your stroke. Its a weird concept to understand at first, but once you give it a go you see what i mean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DalinCriid wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Did you get the W&N S7 minis or regulars? Because the regulars are what you want. That might be your problem.

Nothing specify what they are. Either on the brush handle or the plastic tube

Images are huge sorry,
Does your brush look like this:


or does it look like this:


Because you want the latter of the two.

Since we are talking about brushes, I have a couple of W&N brushes, I haven't used them yet, but the brushes I'm using tend to get that bent tip, I'm thinking that is because I am using the tip and not the side, or am I not cleaning then right with the brush cleaner.

I think its the first part, and not using the side, but the tips. That correct or something else.

@DarkKnights44 - just from my experience, using them, I use the tip, but I draw it along after the thicker part of the brush, if you can imagine that. It's like working with the brush, not against it. Hard to describe, but it gives you the thinness, when you want it, from a tip, without bending it overly much. I think it can still be hard on the brush though, it seems to need more cleaning when I do this (tho my brushes are getting old tbh too so that could just be it)

Basic brush tips

Never clean with hot water
Never get paint past the barrel of the brush
Always wash after use and wash frequently if you are using metallics. Metallics ruin brushes fast

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Im gonna come in here and clarify your issues.

Now dont take this the wrong way when i say it but the reason you are having a bad time is because it sounds like you are using your brush wrong.

It sounds like you are painting with the tip of your brush, meaning your almost trying to draw the paint on, which is not how you should be painting with these brushes. When using a W&N you want to use the side of the brush and drag the paint across the surface you are painting. W&N hold a LOT of paint in them depending on the brush you bought, if your bought a round, the barrel of the brush is going to be very thick and hold a lot, if you bought the miniature brush, not so much.

Next time you give it a go, rather then trying to draw on the layer, drag the side of the brush over what oyu are painting and push the paint over the surface and let the brush pick it up once you finish your stroke. Its a weird concept to understand at first, but once you give it a go you see what i mean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DalinCriid wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Did you get the W&N S7 minis or regulars? Because the regulars are what you want. That might be your problem.

Nothing specify what they are. Either on the brush handle or the plastic tube

Images are huge sorry,
Does your brush look like this:

Spoiler:

or does it look like this:

Spoiler:

Because you want the latter of the two.

I have the second pair. Those with longer hair.

DarkKnights44 wrote:Since we are talking about brushes, I have a couple of W&N brushes, I haven't used them yet, but the brushes I'm using tend to get that bent tip, I'm thinking that is because I am using the tip and not the side, or am I not cleaning then right with the brush cleaner. I think its the first part, and not using the side, but the tips. That correct or something else.

Hard to say, without more info. W&N (and most brands, for that matter) make several different lines of brushes, as well as the different shapes and sizes within each one. Are your brushes synthetic or natural hair? Hair bristles are more easily damaged by harsh solvents (alcohol, turpentine, etc.), but that merely dries them out and stiffens them - they're more likely to look like a broom than a hooked brush point, after use/abuse. With proper care, the tip will look perfect for quite some time, whether you use only the very end or more of the brush's side/belly. Synthetic fiber bristles (nylon, Taklon, etc.) might behave similar to some natural fibers, initially, but they're still plastics with a degree of 'memory.' Even with a flawless cleaning regimen and gentle use, synthetic brushes have a lifespan. Eventually, they'll all hook, simply by having been bent (even slightly) repeatedly. It's possible that you aren't cleaning them well, that you're using too much force, that you're using harsh solvents... but you may also be doing everything right while using brushes with inherent limitations.

Elbows wrote:I'm anxious to order my first Rosemary and Co. brushes as I've heard stellar things about them (and their price/shipping is fantastic - even to the U.S.).

I actually have three or four old GW brushes still in package from the late 90's (the red handled ones). They were pretty damn good, no idea who they were back then.

Couldn't tell you who made them - the only GW brush I've personally handled was a 'tank brush' (blue handle, I'd estimate it at around a size 14 round) that had spent a winter lost in the snow (a friend had used it as a costume prop for Halloween and lost track of it in the darkest recesses of my former yard). I also haven't used W&N S.7s or Raphael 8404s for comparison. I can say, however, that R&Co. brushes are great, both in terms of quality and cost. I use both the Ser.33 and Ser.99 (Kolinsky and red sable blend, respectively) with absolutely no complaints. Fine points, generous bellies (especially the S.99s), good snap, solid ferrule attachment, and decent bristle resilience. The 33s are slightly slimmer, for the equivalent size - I've actually come to prefer the 99s for most work, based more on the shape than the hair. I also picked up half a dozen brushes to try, shipped across the Atlantic, for the cost of ~1.6 Series 7s/8404s... not including shipping. If you search, you'll see I've raved about them before. You'll also see the reviews that led me to try them out, initially. I'd happily buy more from them, but my first batch of brushes are still going strong!

I'll second the rec for Rosemary & Co. (and I should also point out that they're one of the few companies that actually does a good synthetic brush.)

I guess that I'm probably gonna sell them half the price to some local hobbyist. I've used them only twice so far. Maybe in time the hair of the brush will start feeling like my GW brushes, or like people said they have different "style", but at this point there is no way to draw a single edge highlight.

Oh, by the way, I tried them on paper. The result is simply FANTASTIC, but on plastic mini it is just meh...

 DalinCriid wrote:
I guess that I'm probably gonna sell them half the price to some local hobbyist. I've used them only twice so far. Maybe in time the hair of the brush will start feeling like my GW brushes, or like people said they have different "style", but at this point there is no way to draw a single edge highlight.

Oh, by the way, I tried them on paper. The result is simply FANTASTIC, but on plastic mini it is just meh...

Wait what kind of paint are you trying to edge highlight with?

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:
I guess that I'm probably gonna sell them half the price to some local hobbyist. I've used them only twice so far. Maybe in time the hair of the brush will start feeling like my GW brushes, or like people said they have different "style", but at this point there is no way to draw a single edge highlight.

Oh, by the way, I tried them on paper. The result is simply FANTASTIC, but on plastic mini it is just meh...

Wait what kind of paint are you trying to edge highlight with?

Citadel

 DalinCriid wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:
I guess that I'm probably gonna sell them half the price to some local hobbyist. I've used them only twice so far. Maybe in time the hair of the brush will start feeling like my GW brushes, or like people said they have different "style", but at this point there is no way to draw a single edge highlight.

Oh, by the way, I tried them on paper. The result is simply FANTASTIC, but on plastic mini it is just meh...

Wait what kind of paint are you trying to edge highlight with?

Citadel

I think he specifically means, are you use a GW base paint, layer paint, edge paint, etc.

I used different brands for different brushes. I find W&N 000 and 00 far superior to other brands. However I like the GW brushes from detail size upwards.

Winter wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:
I guess that I'm probably gonna sell them half the price to some local hobbyist. I've used them only twice so far. Maybe in time the hair of the brush will start feeling like my GW brushes, or like people said they have different "style", but at this point there is no way to draw a single edge highlight.

Oh, by the way, I tried them on paper. The result is simply FANTASTIC, but on plastic mini it is just meh...

Wait what kind of paint are you trying to edge highlight with?

Citadel

I think he specifically means, are you use a GW base paint, layer paint, edge paint, etc.

Layer paint.
Paint is not the issue here, cause I don't experience this with GW or other brushes.

Did you try cleaning them off with some brush soap?

Honestly it all sounds a bit strange to me, I don't usually notice a big difference in how paint flows off the brush regardless of the bristle type (except for some REALLY cheap brushes I got where the paint almost seems to cling to the bristles). The thing I notice with my nicer Kolinsky brushes is they seem to hold together better and deliver paint better over a longer period of time (where as the cheap crappy ones the paint can start to feel a bit claggy after a short time).

Are you thinning with anything exotic, or just water?

I have a few W&N Series 7. I primarily use a no. 1 brush for fine detail work. I think that 0's and 00's are too small and hold not enough paint. The no. 1 has enough of a point for eyes - for me anyways. I find that the no. 1 size is way too small for grunt work. I use a Games and Gears Size 0 (which is comparatively gigantic) for grunt work, using the W&N only for cleanup work. The W&N is springy, which I find is great for lines, as it flexes as you drag the brush along where you want the paint to go. I find that you do have to reload the brush quite a bit... *load*, test line width, paint the line, rinse, *reload* etc. For bulk quick and dirty edge highlighting, I often use a cruddier size 1 brush, but just the edge.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Did you try cleaning them off with some brush soap?

Honestly it all sounds a bit strange to me, I don't usually notice a big difference in how paint flows off the brush regardless of the bristle type (except for some REALLY cheap brushes I got where the paint almost seems to cling to the bristles). The thing I notice with my nicer Kolinsky brushes is they seem to hold together better and deliver paint better over a longer period of time (where as the cheap crappy ones the paint can start to feel a bit claggy after a short time).

Are you thinning with anything exotic, or just water?

Apologies to the admins for necro posting, but here is small update.
Size 00 is still utterly unusable. It cannot hold any bit of paint in order to produce edge highlight.
Size 0, however seems to be a really good workhorse after I get used to it and after the bristles softened after a week of painting.
I don't use anything particular for thinning Skink, just water and in rare cases Lahmian Medium.

You should not be attempting to edge highlight with a 00, or in my honest opinion even a 0.

00 is basically for dot-highlighting eyes.
0 is pretty much for putting in pupils and irises.

With S7's a 1 is my workhorse brush.

As a rule of thumb though, the smaller the brush, the thinner you want your paint. Using 0 and below for anything other than dotting and you're probably going to be wanting flow improver in there.

To me this sounds like you're using the wrong technique for edge highlighting. You want the SIDE of the brush to touch the corner of the edge. You don't want to be painting on the flat (you're not attempting to draw a line!).

If you are attempting to draw a long line (ie a false highlight on bas-relief), you need a lining brush - these are LONG bristles without much taper to them, so when you pull them on a surface they move without spreading much.

Edit: Clean brushes with masters' brush soap, both before first use and after each session, or immediately if you manage to get paint into the ferrule. Many artists brushes come having been dipped in a gum to protect the bristles. They need a good wash before they behave.

Size 1 seems like a base paintbrush to me. I don't know why I think 0 should be the one to do it, but as you say 00 is out of the question.
The first rule about edge highlight that I learned 2 years ago was as you say using the SIDE. However, there are parts of the SM miniature where is impossible to slide the side and you have to actually draw it. Apologies for derailing the thread but here is what I am implying:


And it is not just those parts. There are such hard parts on the backside of the armor where you are not allowed to use the Side without making a mess.
My guess is that I should go back with the Base Paint and redo the mess, but when your base is Gunzee applied with an airbrush it gets a bit hard. And the recess... just not a good idea.

Again yes, it's the side of the brush you use, not the tip.

This is leading into a bit of brush control theory.

Paint flows from a bristle brush when the bristles splay. Otherwise surface tension keeps it in the reservoir. Thicker paint has more surface tension, and needs more splay to come out.

Pressure toward the ferrule splays the bristles. More pressure, more splay, which translates to more flow.

Generally it's best to apply pressure to splay the bristles by gently pulling the brush, with the side of the bristles just above the tip in contact with the surface. This doesn't splay them much, and as such leaves a nice tight line.

Having the contact further up the taper of the brush leads to more splay (as you pull the bristles straighten from the point of contact) and a wider line, with more flow.

More flowy paint (thinner / flow aid) needs less splay to come out quickly. Too much load and it'll flood (which is why you shouldn't overload your brush). Generally you don't want the paint to spread from where you put it.


On the upper edge of the lower armour you need to make a long, curving stroke dragging the bristles along.

Brush handle should be at around 45 degrees to the surface.

Go for a 'milk' consistency (very hard to be specific) on your palette (a wet pallete will help a great deal).

A good point size 1 (or your 0), without too much load (wick off excess onto a piece of tissue), and you'll find it MUCH easier to work.

Winterdyne has pretty much covered it, so I dont want to be redundant but do want to agree. I use a W&N 7 size 1 for literally everything, I have some throwaway brushes where drybrushing or some other damaging technique is used, but otherwise its a workhorse with a very fine point for things like eyes, but also holds a lot of paint without having to constantly reload it.

The picture you provided would still be done using the edge of the brush.