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blood for the blood god says that they can fight twice in each fight phase.
do you fight twice at one time or fight once then your opponent picks a fight then you fight with them again?
i assume its not twice at once but wanted to see what everyone else thought.

I also thought it meant you had to select them a second time to have them fight again.

I think that you need to select them (activate) again to fight the second time.

Yeah that makes the most sense and keeps the alternating unit selection from the rules valid.
A pretty sick combo though is going to be charging with them and then choosing them as your first fight phase unit.
That’s a damn ton of attacks.

I agree you probably have to pick them twice, rather than just fight with them twice in a row. However, I don't think there's anything that stops them attacking twice before any enemy on the turn they charge (Counterattack Stratagem notwithstanding).

The rules say charging units strike first and the Khorne unit has charged so what stops it getting to attack twice as a charger before you get to the point of selecting units on a player-by-player basis?

Slipspace wrote:
I agree you probably have to pick them twice, rather than just fight with them twice in a row. However, I don't think there's anything that stops them attacking twice before any enemy on the turn they charge (Counterattack Stratagem notwithstanding).

The rules say charging units strike first and the Khorne unit has charged so what stops it getting to attack twice as a charger before you get to the point of selecting units on a player-by-player basis?

There is nothing I see preventing anyone from doing just that.

They get the Charge, they Fight, now the phase rules say Turn Player picks an Unit to fight, so you pick them to Fight again.

If you are friendly with the enemy player, you can fast dice this combining it all into one big fight round, but that would be a house ruling to clear with the enemy first.

When the enemy charges the 'Zerkers - Use a Strata to fight first, let the surviving enemy fight, pick the 'Zerkers to fight again.

You can still fast dice them. Just ask the opponent if he's going to use the stratagem to counter charge or not. You just have to declare what unit you're going to attack with first since that might influence his decision on which unit to use that stratagem on, if at all.
You can only counter charge one unit so unless he decides to use it against zerkers, it's a wash. Unless he also has units that can counterattack themselves like daemonettes, but yea.
Under normal circumstances, once you declare who goes first, all the other units go at the same time unless he counter charges one of his choice. So you know the zerkers will be hitting twice in row regardless of being friendly with him or not.

Don't forget the Pile In and Consolidate moves potentially bringing a second enemy into Combat for their second fight turn. Pretty powerful to charge the equivalent of two units with only getting one Overwatch. Tau notwithstanding.

Slipspace wrote:
I agree you probably have to pick them twice, rather than just fight with them twice in a row. However, I don't think there's anything that stops them attacking twice before any enemy on the turn they charge (Counterattack Stratagem notwithstanding).

The rules say charging units strike first and the Khorne unit has charged so what stops it getting to attack twice as a charger before you get to the point of selecting units on a player-by-player basis?

Because the rules say 'after all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is)...'

So once all charging units have fought once, the first part of the rule has been completed and you immediately start choosing other eligible units to fight.

Therefore, if you want a charging Bezerker unit to swing twice before the enemy gets a chance to fight back, then you have to pick them as your first unit once you get to the alternating selection portion of the fight phase.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Don't forget the Pile In and Consolidate moves potentially bringing a second enemy into Combat for their second fight turn. Pretty powerful to charge the equivalent of two units with only getting one Overwatch. Tau notwithstanding.

A unit that charged can only fight the units it charged in the same turn. If you pile into another unit, you still cannot attack it until the next turn.

Pink Horror wrote:
A unit that charged can only fight the units it charged in the same turn. If you pile into another unit, you still cannot attack it until the next turn.

That is a very good point that tones down the power of Bezerkers considerably from how I imagine most people believe they can be played.

If the Berserkers charged that turn, they should get to attack (the same unit) twice before activation has occured.
Since they charged, they get to go first.
They attack before activations (because charge), then attack before activations (because charge).

How is this against the rules?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
If the Berserkers charged that turn, they should get to attack (the same unit) twice before activation has occured.
Since they charged, they get to go first.
They attack before activations (because charge), then attack before activations (because charge).

How is this against the rules?

Because the rules say: 'after all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is)...'

So once all charging units have fought, you move onto alternating activations. Have the Bezerkers 'fought' after fighting one round of melee? Absolutely.

After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with... until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each.

If you allow the Berzerkers to fight twice before your opponent gets to fight you've broken this rule, because all of the charging units have fought. Therefore by alternately choosing the eligible units to fight you don't break any rules other than the one you're allowed to (i.e., the Berzerkers fighting twice).

 Ghaz wrote:

After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with... until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each.

If you allow the Berzerkers to fight twice before your opponent gets to fight you've broken this rule, because all of the charging units have fought. Therefore by alternately choosing the eligible units to fight you don't break any rules other than the one you're allowed to (i.e., the Berzerkers fighting twice).

Unless, of course, the Berserkers are selected first after chargers are finished, since whoever's turn it is gets to pick a unit to fight first.

Heres the question: what is fight defined as? Do they get to pile in a second time?

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Heres the question: what is fight defined as? Do they get to pile in a second time?

I would think so since it is part of the fight sequence.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Heres the question: what is fight defined as? Do they get to pile in a second time?

What exactly is a 'fight' is pretty well defined in the rules, and yes it potentially includes both a pile-in and consolidation move.

However, keep in mind that if the Bezerkers charged that turn, they are only able to attack units that they charged (that's in the 'choose targets' rules), so if the Bezekers do want to use their second fight to attack a second unit, they will have to have declared a charge against both units ahead of time (giving them both a chance to overwatch).

Bezerksers are much more dangerous in an ongoing combat (where they didn't charge), as then they're able to attack any enemy unit they get within 1" of, with either of their fights.

 yakface wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Heres the question: what is fight defined as? Do they get to pile in a second time?

What exactly is a 'fight' is pretty well defined in the rules, and yes it potentially includes both a pile-in and consolidation move.

However, keep in mind that if the Bezerkers charged that turn, they are only able to attack units that they charged (that's in the 'choose targets' rules), so if the Bezekers do want to use their second fight to attack a second unit, they will have to have declared a charge against both units ahead of time (giving them both a chance to overwatch).

Bezerksers are much more dangerous in an ongoing combat (where they didn't charge), as then they're able to attack any enemy unit they get within 1" of, with either of their fights.

Thank you Yakface, I heard some people fighting over it at my FLGS recently and was curious as to the answer to their question.

That makes beserkers disgusting though!

 yakface wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
I agree you probably have to pick them twice, rather than just fight with them twice in a row. However, I don't think there's anything that stops them attacking twice before any enemy on the turn they charge (Counterattack Stratagem notwithstanding).

The rules say charging units strike first and the Khorne unit has charged so what stops it getting to attack twice as a charger before you get to the point of selecting units on a player-by-player basis?

Because the rules say 'after all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is)...'

So once all charging units have fought once, the first part of the rule has been completed and you immediately start choosing other eligible units to fight.

Therefore, if you want a charging Bezerker unit to swing twice before the enemy gets a chance to fight back, then you have to pick them as your first unit once you get to the alternating selection portion of the fight phase.

Yes, but nothing stops me to select the Berserker again after they fought the first time, if at least 2 units charged that turn.

Example:
A unit of Berserkers and a unit of CSMs both charge on the same turn.
1. The Berserkers fight
2. Have all charging units fought? Nope, the CSM still didn't. Still my turn. The BRB clearly states that i get to choose the order. Is there something in the codex stopping me to select again the Berserkers? Nope. So I attack with the Berserkers again
3. Have all charging units fought? Nope, the CSM still didn't. Still my turn. I attack with the CSM.
4. Have all charging units fought? Yes. Now we start selecting once per player, starting with me.


Of course things become much messier if only one unit of Berserkers charged that turn. The codex says they "can fight twice". The BRB says "after all charging units have fought". Can we consider that a unit "has fought" if it still has the opportunity to fight? Not 100% sure, but i'd say yes.


To summarize, my opinion:
Scenario A: more than one unit charged in that turn. Then i can attack twice with the Berserkers before my opponent does, by simply leaving a non-Berserkers unit as the last one to fight
Scenario B: only one Berserkers unit charged that turn. I can attack once with the Berserkers, then we start alternating. So if there's already an ongoing fight, having the Berserkers to fight twice in a row would give the opponent the opportunity to strike first in the other fight.

it says in step 1. of the fight phase,

...No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each fight phase...

so each time they fight it has to be a complete Fight phase

Nope, because the codex says - i'm quoting exactly - "...they can fight TWICE in the same fight phase, instead of only once".
And being a codex it overrides the paragraph you quoted.

Bezerkers can fight twice. This means they can be activated twice in the phase.

However, the rules for activation is that all charging units fight first, then players alternate choosing eligible units unit all units have fought once.

After all units have fought once, then you pick your Bezerkers to fight a second time.

I agree with gnofry

say the charge they fight once and then when you start activating and alternating units they are eligible to fight again.

There is a small, little, pointless problem in your reasoning: there is no single line in the rules that supports it.

Please find me a single paragraph in the rules that invalidates my example....

I think they answered this query on the WarhammerTV stream on Monday or Tuesday.

When you activate the Berserkers, you only Pile In and make attacks twice, you don't actually activate the unit twice.

So, reading along the steps in the Fight Sequence you go: 1>2>3>4>5>2>3>4>5>6

Diablix wrote:
There is a small, little, pointless problem in your reasoning: there is no single line in the rules that supports it.

Please find me a single paragraph in the rules that invalidates my example....

The wording in the FIGHT section is - "After all units that have charged have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units have fought once each."

So your step 2 from example

Diablix wrote:
"IS there something in the codex stopping me to select again the bezerkers? Nope."

is wrong due to - "After all units that have charged have fought..."

Also when you get to step 4 in your example - you start saying you can select once per player, but you're already out of units that could fight!

nietzy wrote:

Diablix wrote:
There is a small, little, pointless problem in your reasoning: there is no single line in the rules that supports it.

Please find me a single paragraph in the rules that invalidates my example....

The wording in the FIGHT section is - "After all units that have charged have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units have fought once each."

Can you explain how this means that what he's wanting to do is illegal? I don't see how this is relevant.

Dionysodorus wrote:

nietzy wrote:

Diablix wrote:
There is a small, little, pointless problem in your reasoning: there is no single line in the rules that supports it.

Please find me a single paragraph in the rules that invalidates my example....

The wording in the FIGHT section is - "After all units that have charged have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units have fought once each."

Can you explain how this means that what he's wanting to do is illegal? I don't see how this is relevant.

well its a direct word for word quote from the rules thats under the FIGHT section, so, its very relevant.

In step 2 hes saying he can pick the Berzerkers again to fight but the wording isnt specific in the rules but it implies SINGULAR i.e. "have fought" instead of "have finished/are done fighting".

Other thing I have been reading in threads like this is - "Well he can select first Berzerkers from charging (he sure can), then CSMs from charging (yep, they also charged), then because its his turn, use the Berzerkers again as the first unit to be selected..."

But the line I have put in BOLD seems to contradict that. its unclear but again it is in singular rather then plural i.e. "until all eligible units have fought once each" - instead of "Until all your units have fought (as many times as they need to)"

Its the Rain Red rule from Traitors Legion ported to 8th and made better - i.e. a set of attacks that happen AFTER your opponent has fought but can do sweet FA about

nietzy wrote:

well its a direct word for word quote from the rules thats under the FIGHT section, so, its very relevant.

In step 2 hes saying he can pick the Berzerkers again to fight but the wording isnt specific in the rules but it implies SINGULAR i.e. "have fought" instead of "have finished/are done fighting".

Other thing I have been reading in threads like this is - "Well he can select first Berzerkers from charging (he sure can), then CSMs from charging (yep, they also charged), then because its his turn, use the Berzerkers again as the first unit to be selected..."

But the line I have put in BOLD seems to contradict that. its unclear but again it is in singular rather then plural i.e. "until all eligible units have fought once each" - instead of "Until all your units have fought (as many times as they need to)"

Its the Rain Red rule from Traitors Legion ported to 8th and made better - i.e. a set of attacks that happen AFTER your opponent has fought but can do sweet FA about

I'm still not seeing where you think the problem is. The sub-phase where the chargers attack does not end until "all charging units have fought" and the sub-phase where all eligible units can fight does not end "until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each". There doesn't seem to be anything here preventing a unit of Berserkers from fighting more than once, in either sub-phase, as long as the condition for the sub-phase ending is not met before they are chosen the second time. What Diablix is saying is that you can leave the charging CSMs to be your last selection in the first sub-phase so that it does not end after the Berserkers attack once, and then you can choose the Berserkers again, still before the CSMs go. Can you try to be precise about where you think this goes wrong? The only restriction I see on doing this in general is the later sentence that "No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase", but obviously this is what's meant to be over-ridden by the Berserkers' special rule.