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AM I reading this correctly.

I could take a CSM Army list.
Have Magnus
A dark apostle with Thousand legion, a unit of warp talons with thousand legion
Then 3 Troops, say cultist with thousand legion.
But If I took Rubrics , they would be elite choices.

The benefit of using a Thousand Army specific list (See thousand son section in the Chaos book)
I could take
HQ Dark apostle, but he could no longer be Legion Thousand son
I could take Warp Talons, but they could no longer be thousand son.
And the benefit would be, that all Rubrics would now be my troop choices appose to elites?

So I guess the Question is, Can I take a Dark Apostle with Legion Thousand son.
Still take Tzanngors as troops.
But any Rubrics would now be treated as Elites appose to Troops, since I am just taking a Generic CSM list, and having an HQ choice with Legion Thousand son, that is not allowed in a Thousand son specific army detachment.

Thanks
Todd

No. In fact the first list of things with thousand sons legion are illegal.

Thousand sons, world eaters, death guard, and emperor's children pages are not optional. Those are simply the rules involved in using those legion keywords(and we are likely to see the full codices for all factions follow the same setup.

Right on, so basically a dark apostle and warp talons can never be Thousand sons legion.

Hmm. So in any Chaos list, why wouldn't you just use Rubrics as Troops if you wanted to? What stops you from making Rubrics Troops.
Is the restriction to unlock Rubrics troops, just that you need to at least fill all the requirements of one of the detachments.
Example: Ahriman, 1000 son DP, 2 units of 1000 sons cultist, 1 unit of Rubrics. That fulfills a battalion requirement, so Rubrics now unlock for troops?

I know book is new, forgive me if its clear as day and I am just missing it.

There is no restriction to having rubrics as troops. You do not even need a single othe T-sons legion model in the detachment.

It os also rather fluffy: no basic chaos marines as T-sons due to the rubric making them all dust.

Any detachment just has to have a single shared faction keyword.

The only current exception and optiinal setup is ynarri: they are all or nothing. You can choose to have any aldari detachment either all(except for some specified units) ynarri or none of them; and that might even extend across different detachments.

I see, So not all units can be 1000Thousand legions.

And Rubrics can be elites or Troops in any Chaos faction army/list, simply the players choice?

Thanks for the replies man. Appreciate the clarification.
-Todd

Tsilber wrote:
I see, So not all units can be 1000Thousand legions.

And Rubrics can be elites or Troops in any Chaos faction army/list, simply the players choice?

Thanks for the replies man. Appreciate the clarification.
-Todd

The troops vs elites distinction relies on the <Legion> keyword:
If the Rubrics are <Legion: Thousand Sons> (i.e. you choose 'Thousand Sons' as the Legion keyword), then they MUST be troops.
If you choose any other Legion keyword (for instance <Legion: World Eaters> and I'm not kidding, this is possible), then they MUST be elites.
From a gameplay perspective, the difference is in what benefits the unit can gain from nearby characters. The troops unit can get buffs from an Exalted Sorcerer or from Magnus, for example, the elites unit can be buffed by your generic CSM Daemon Prince or Chaos Lord if they share the same Legion keyword.
Whatever you choose for the Rubrics, the fact that they have the Faction keyword 'Chaos' makes them a legal choice in any Chaos detachment. Once the codices hit, this might change – Rubrics might become eligible as a troops choice only in an all-Thousand Sons detachment, for example, but that's mere conjecture at this point.

Oh i see it now, "Word Beaerer" legion as of now has no restrictions, so they could have ELITE Rubrics and Khorne beserkers, with Legion "Word Bearers". Hence the HQ with Legion Word Bearers, benefits them. So Abaddon just got insanely good, until restrictions for black legion come out.

Snugiraffe wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
I see, So not all units can be 1000Thousand legions.

And Rubrics can be elites or Troops in any Chaos faction army/list, simply the players choice?

Thanks for the replies man. Appreciate the clarification.
-Todd

The troops vs elites distinction relies on the <Legion> keyword:
If the Rubrics are <Legion: Thousand Sons> (i.e. you choose 'Thousand Sons' as the Legion keyword), then they MUST be troops.
If you choose any other Legion keyword (for instance <Legion: World Eaters> and I'm not kidding, this is possible), then they MUST be elites.
From a gameplay perspective, the difference is in what benefits the unit can gain from nearby characters. The troops unit can get buffs from an Exalted Sorcerer or from Magnus, for example, the elites unit can be buffed by your generic CSM Daemon Prince or Chaos Lord if they share the same Legion keyword.
Whatever you choose for the Rubrics, the fact that they have the Faction keyword 'Chaos' makes them a legal choice in any Chaos detachment. Once the codices hit, this might change – Rubrics might become eligible as a troops choice only in an all-Thousand Sons detachment, for example, but that's mere conjecture at this point.

rubrics cannot be world eaters.

World eaters must have the khorne mark of chaos; rubrics are both tzneetch MoC and contain a Psyker, khorne cannot be given to psykers.

Elite cult units cannot bear the cult legion keywords because of the cult legion's devotion rules.

So we know the Cult legions presented in the book, Noise Plague Zerkers and Rubrics, can never have any of the other cult legion marks. The restrictions in the cult data sheets shows you other units also (For sons and Nurgle) that can never bare those respective <Legions>. The unit entry for the 4 cult units, still carry a designated Mark of X, even if their Legion tag is open.

The key words in Sons and DG special sections say other units with <legion>, MAY replace it.

I do not see anywhere in the book where as in the elite choices for the cults, that the Rubrics, Zerkers, Plague, and Noise can not all be <BLack Legion> or <Word Bearers>.

The elite choice pages for the Cult, do not have a designated tag of what we would normally think their home legion would be. It says <Legion> , which can be replaced as you see fit (with restrictions based off their MArks, as mentioned in opening sentence)

So effectively, the Cult specific untis are troops if they carry their respective home legion; Tag, (such as rubrics being Tsons). With the exception of the other 3 cult legions in the book thus far, Rubrics can be elite choices for any other Legion, and can carry that legions Keyword.
Same rules for Noise, Zerkers, Plague?

They(elite cult units) can absolutely be word bearers or black legiin, or even Red Corsairs.

The only things they cannot be is one of the other 3 cult legions.

All 4 cult legions have a requirement of a Mark, all 4 cult units have set marks; those are at odds if you try to have Emperor's children rubrics, for example.

Then you have a further restriction for World Eaters via their required khorne Mark; they cannot have Sorcerers due to Mark of Khorne not allowing psykers to take it.

Now, you can include all of these units in your detachment; but you will not be able to benefit from most Character abilities with all of them as they only work on <legion > units and some may have to be of a different legion depending on which legion or mark those characters have.

The bearers, black, corsairs, or Iron warriors have a bit of a leg up on the Cult legions: they can include a Vanguard detachment with one of each Elite cult units with their legion keyword to benefit from a lords rerolls and such.

Ok, this is weird and counterintuitive but I think I understand how this is supposed to be. We associate cult troops with the legions composed mostly/entirely of them, but that wouldn't be the only place to find them. A Black Legion unit, for example, could worship Khorne and refine their melee prowess, discard heavier weapons in favor of pistols and melee, etc. You'd end up with a unit of Khorne Berserkers, comparable to the bulk of the World Eaters, from the Black Legion. Marines favored by Nurgle or Slaanesh could likewise end up as Plague or Noise Marines regardless of their legion of origin.

Rubric Marines are where this breaks down, unfortunately, since the Rubric was a one-time event. But I see why they didn't carve out an exception for one.

Appreciate the clarification and feedback everyone.

Cheers!

 Bludbaff wrote:
Ok, this is weird and counterintuitive but I think I understand how this is supposed to be. We associate cult troops with the legions composed mostly/entirely of them, but that wouldn't be the only place to find them. A Black Legion unit, for example, could worship Khorne and refine their melee prowess, discard heavier weapons in favor of pistols and melee, etc. You'd end up with a unit of Khorne Berserkers, comparable to the bulk of the World Eaters, from the Black Legion. Marines favored by Nurgle or Slaanesh could likewise end up as Plague or Noise Marines regardless of their legion of origin.

Rubric Marines are where this breaks down, unfortunately, since the Rubric was a one-time event. But I see why they didn't carve out an exception for one.

But what you're not thinking about is how detachments can now include allies willy-nilly within them. So any type of force could have Thousand Sons Rubric Marines in it because Thousand Sons would be the most common Rubric Marine (most of the sorcerers leading a Rubric Marines squad would still identify as Thousand Sons). That's why they're Troops, no matter what army they're in.

Rubric Marines that aren't 1K Sons, would be much more rare (hence why they're elites), but could easily represent 1K sons that have long since abandoned their legion to go join a different cause for any number of highly chaotic reasons.

Remember, after the heresy, all the Traitor legions splintered to some degree, and that's why you can totally have Chaos warbands featuring anything you can think of.

So if you force has 1K Sons Rubrics alongside Word Eater Bezerkers alongside Emperor's Children Noise Marines and Death Guard Plague Marines, its not that all those units are necessarily fighting together as a single force long-term, but just that they've come together to fight a battle for any reason you can possibly think of, exactly the way you can have White Scars, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc. all together in the same detachment now if you want to. It doesn't mean the units from all those different chapters are suddenly 'together', they're just allies in the same detachment.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


rubrics cannot be world eaters.

Absolutely correct, of course, good sir! I should have used "Crimson Slaughter" as an example - I wanted something that would immediately strike that fluff nerve and failed to think it all the way through.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
They(elite cult units) can absolutely be word bearers or black legiin, or even Red Corsairs.

The only things they cannot be is one of the other 3 cult legions.

All 4 cult legions have a requirement of a Mark, all 4 cult units have set marks; those are at odds if you try to have Emperor's children rubrics, for example.

Then you have a further restriction for World Eaters via their required khorne Mark; they cannot have Sorcerers due to Mark of Khorne not allowing psykers to take it.

Now, you can include all of these units in your detachment; but you will not be able to benefit from most Character abilities with all of them as they only work on < legion > units and some may have to be of a different legion depending on which legion or mark those characters have.

The bearers, black, corsairs, or Iron warriors have a bit of a leg up on the Cult legions: they can include a Vanguard detachment with one of each Elite cult units with their legion keyword to benefit from a lords re-rolls and such.

Yes Each cult legion must take the related Gods mark, but its really not a problem since you can bring any of the cult troops as troops choices just as long as they have the required Legion to make them troops.

Never denied that. Alluded to it in my second response.

What you quoted is a different portion of this discussion; which legion tags can be assigned to the elite cult units.

The troops cult units already have an assigned legion tag.

We have also discussed how a detachment can mix legion tags freely, but that reduces synergy and effectiveness..

So of the points I was trying to clear up, in my original post was who can benefit from Abaddons Reroll all hits for <black legion>. So T5 Plague with that Disgustingly resilient ability. Noise marines with assault 3 weapons, Rubrics with that invul and ap-2 weapon. And Zerkers, rerolling all hits when they get into combat

Admittedly, I also did not see at the time starting this thread, under the elite entries, the cult units in the book lost their common legion tag, and became <legion> . Seeing that I think would have answered majority of my questions.

Also Understanding, that some units in that book with <legion> Tag, could never be Thousand sons or Death guard.

Like a Dark Apostle who is Thousand Sons would be a huge boost to an already solid Tzaangor unit (Leadership for morale). But alas, Dark Apostles just hate them Sorcerers! Or Magnus doesnt want that faith filth among his legion, (When Erebus killed Argal Tal, he pissed off a lot of people, would be my guess) lol.

Thanks again folks.