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I'm talking about an army of infantry in heavy transports with heavy vehicle support or in more general terms t7/t8 spam lists? How are you fighting such forces and what are you fielding to do it?

A lot of guard armies are featuring a shadow sword. If you're avoiding the super heavies there's still a lot of good options. Drop in tempestus meltas come to mind

At 2k I usually have 12-14 lascannons. I've only versed vehicle heavy lists against dark eldar but as far as I can tell T5 or T8 is irrelevant if your using lascannons. And with Guard, you can get a lot of lascannons.

Plasma scions are also good. I prefer them over meltas as you can drop in the plasmas good range but not the meltas. Both wound on the same if you plasma overcharge, but you've got twice the shots from plasma. The way I see it, if a D6 average is 3.5 and two plasma shots net you 4 then on average the plasmas will perform better than meltas anyway. Ap -3 is good enough for me and I haven't been bothered by the odd guy melting. It's all in good taste.

I've also been liking punisher tank commanders with multi meltas and a Lascannon. They cost a bunch (250) but can do nicely.

Manticores have excellent vehicle cracking capability as well. In addition, the Hellhound's inferno cannon does surprisingly good against T7/T8 also. AM/IG have plenty of anti-tank toys - what sort of list/points are you usually fielding?

My strategy has been sheer volume of fire, gatling tauroxes are seeing some use in my lists, as is the punisher vulture.

6 Basilisks do a great job of punishing anything anywhere. Able to hit anything on the table, or the other table. No need for line of sight. High strength, good AP, and multiple attacks and wounds. On good rolls, one cannon can open up a transport or a tank. Pricey to field, but they can quickly win back their points.

All good advice, this topic was kind of a PTSD shock topic after I got turn 2 tabled by SoB (sisters in immolators + knight + Penitent engines +celestine) because I deployed too far forward and simply did not bring enough AT to open the immos before they got into my men and BBqed everything. My Baneblade also killed in 2 turns by lucky shooting from the knight, and it flubbed its own shooting so bad that all weapons concentrating from it couldn't kill a single immo.

But it's a good topic to discuss our AV in general. I've found that the D6 damage weapons perform better than the D3 damage weapons. My ultimate AT weapon has been the LR Annihilator with MM sponsons. It's absolutely brutal the damage it can put out, especially run as a tank commander.

Basilisks are indeed great en mass, but I only have 2. I've found they reliably put 2-5 wounds on vehicles, which is by no means bad, but the aforementioned LR variant can regularly one shot vehicles while being significantly tougher. I've stayed away from lascannon HWTs because I think they will die too quickly, but I should try them out.

I think I will make a core of 2x LR Annihilator Commanders (I know they can't be commanders RAW but it's clearly an oversight to me) with MMs or HBs lead by Pask. I can see them reliably dropping a knight in 1 turn within 24" range.

Blanking on the name of the flyer right now, but the one that lets you disembark as part of your move is huge... like deep striking without the restriction against moving afterwards, and allows you to get melta teams into melta range. My knight got one-shot :(

Lots of Lasgun conscripts, apparently they kill everything!!!!

I recommend Basilisks and Annihilator or Punisher Russes.

To further build on my statement about Basilisks, I also field 4 squads of 40 conscripts. 160 martyrs for the Emprah running towards the enemy generally provides a good distraction to the enemy while your big guns pound away. If they try to ignore your blobs it can be interesting watching a unit of conscripts tear apart their favourite toy.

I haven't played any games yet because of exchange studies until august, but when I do, I imagine I will bring something along the lines of:

Rapier Laser Destroyers
Leman Russ Annihilators/Battle Tanks/Conquerors with hull lascannon
Basilisks
Manticores
Earthshaker/Medusa Carriages
HWS with lascannons
Infantry with meltaguns stuff gets into range.
A Shadowsword if I feel like bringing it.

Other things I personally would not use include Thunderbolts and Vendettas (because I don't really like using fliers when my DKoK), or Stygies Destroyer/Valdor or other vehicles (because I don't have them and they are low on my list of stuff to buy).

The Imperial Guard has A LOT of options for dealing with vehicles. whether it be actually dedicated weapons or just weapons powerful enough to hurt tanks anyway.

Shadowsword, Leman Russes, Manticores.

If it's really big, then the Shadowsword tends to be capable of taking a big chunk out of it. More normal tanks typically die to sustained fire from my tanks. A tide of light armor is the real problem, because there just aren't enough guns to go around in that case.

I feel that a shadowlord can be the wrong model to field unless your opponent is fielding something massive, such as Magnus, a Titan or something similarly big and cheesey. I find its cannon is over kill on a single tank, and yes whilst it can take 4 lascannons, you better hope you go first, because no sane player will let it live.

Just think how many tanks or cannons you can get instead

Shadow swords overkill? Dont think Id agree... theyre possibly the best way to guarantee a dead tank a turn. Even if it goes down by turn 3, it may have killed enough to get its pointsvalue back and then some.

One shadow sword costs near the same price as 5 Basilisks. That's 5 different targets. Worst case scenario you have to shoot a tank a couple of times.

The shadowsword can shoot a half dozen targets right? Each gun can be fired independently. It's Volcano Cannon has to hit one target, but it can be fired at one tank while the 4 lascannons hit another. Other things in your army can finish them off if either target survives.

EldarRegenade wrote:
One shadow sword costs near the same price as 5 Basilisks. That's 5 different targets. Worst case scenario you have to shoot a tank a couple of times.

I probably wouldn't take a fully equipped Shadowsword in just any game, but it's a nice addition if you know there's a chance for a lot of heavy or superheavy armour. Playing with the people i normally play with, I would just be happy with 3-4 Laser Destroyers and my usual heavy artillery.

EldarRegenade wrote:I feel that a shadowlord can be the wrong model to field unless your opponent is fielding something massive, such as Magnus, a Titan or something similarly big and cheesey. I find its cannon is over kill on a single tank, and yes whilst it can take 4 lascannons, you better hope you go first, because no sane player will let it live.

Just think how many tanks or cannons you can get instead

EldarRegenade wrote:One shadow sword costs near the same price as 5 Basilisks. That's 5 different targets. Worst case scenario you have to shoot a tank a couple of times.

That's also at least 2 different drops, assuming you batteried-up the Basilisks. And 5 Basilisks is less effective than the Shadowsword against 5 or 1 target.

Tyr13 wrote:Shadow swords overkill? Dont think Id agree... theyre possibly the best way to guarantee a dead tank a turn. Even if it goes down by turn 3, it may have killed enough to get its pointsvalue back and then some.

Yeah, the giant destroyer gun doesn't actually overkill things. I often have to use the Lascannons to finish off the target.


The Shadowsword is a great investment. It's bolter sets can chew up infantry and it's main gun and lascannons can kill tanks efficiently, and for once it performs worth its cost, it's hard to kill, and it's only one deployment drop, giving you a much better chance of first go.

EldarRegenade wrote:
One shadow sword costs near the same price as 5 Basilisks. That's 5 different targets. Worst case scenario you have to shoot a tank a couple of times.

That's a big issue with all the Baneblade variants. If you put your points into it instead of several different tanks it only takes a few good hits on it to push it up to BS 5+ and near uselessness. That means a huge chunk of your army is effectively out of the game, which is what happened to me in the aforementioned PTSD inducing game. If I had put those points into 3 LR Annihilators or LRBTs it would have been a totally different game because his Knight would have crippled 1 tank in the same amount of time as it crippled the Baneblade, but the other 2 LRs would still then be able to crippled it back.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

The Shadowsword is a great investment. It's bolter sets can chew up infantry and it's main gun and lascannons can kill tanks efficiently, and for once it performs worth its cost, it's hard to kill, and it's only one deployment drop, giving you a much better chance of first go.

I think my list was a particularly bad one to take a baneblade in; I had a ton of infantry and characters and the baneblade. It ensured I went second without giving the enemy AT anything else to shoot at beyond the BB. I think I will stick to mech infantry and tanks, which reduces drops significantly. If you can get your list to the point where you are going first then I can see a Shadowsword/BB being excellent, but not if you are generally going to be going second.

I'd also like to say that most IG weapons are very hit or miss, and this includes the Volcano Cannon..

A Shadowsword has 1/2 chance to hit, so that's half of your shots gone. Then, it has a 5/6 chance to wound most anything, so in total we have a 5/12 chance to wound per shot. Almost nothing will have a save against it, but it only has a 1/6 chance to cause 10 or more wounds. So per shot, about a 7% chance to cause 10 wounds or more. If we want 7 or more wounds, we have a ~24% chance of causing that per shot. The Lascannons will then add a few wounds.

Nonetheless, the average is still ~18 damage against most vehicles so it'll probably deal some damage.

Drown the enemy in lights and body's.

Like a gigantic rave, but with dying guardsmen everywhere.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:


I think I will make a core of 2x LR Annihilator Commanders (I know they can't be commanders RAW but it's clearly an oversight to me) with MMs or HBs lead by Pask. I can see them reliably dropping a knight in 1 turn within 24" range.

Would have thought that'd make the FAQ. In any case, you must have some pretty chill opponents at your shop. Or at least ones that haven't read the FW/Imp 2 indices. Mine still won't let Pask order himself and refuse to budge.

Slightly more relevant. I'm playing against a guy who hasnt had a chance to play 8th yet and hes running 3x Baneblade 1x Shadowsword. I don't want to tailor my list against him since its his first game of 8th, but I don't want to play mass grave simulator either.

The list I'm planning on running has an anti tank inventory of a Knight Crusader (thermal/gatling/spear missiles), Pask with Demo cannon/PC sponsons/LC hull, a LR tank commander with BC/LC, 4 lascannons in infantry squads, and two 5 man scion squads with 2 plasmas each. Will this be enough AT to keep it interesting? I imagine the shadowsword is going to give my Knight and vehicles a really bad time.

If the Shadowsword's Volcano cannon doesn't have enough ROF for you, mathhammer seems to indicate that the Hellhammer is the next best thing. 2D6 Str 10 Ap -4 Dmg 3 shots should make whatever you shoot with it unhappy - plus the Hellhammer comes with a small arsenal to assist on top of that (from a Demolisher Cannon down to a single lasgun).

RogueApiary wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:


I think I will make a core of 2x LR Annihilator Commanders (I know they can't be commanders RAW but it's clearly an oversight to me) with MMs or HBs lead by Pask. I can see them reliably dropping a knight in 1 turn within 24" range.

Would have thought that'd make the FAQ. In any case, you must have some pretty chill opponents at your shop. Or at least ones that haven't read the FW/Imp 2 indices. Mine still won't let Pask order himself and refuse to budge.

Slightly more relevant. I'm playing against a guy who hasnt had a chance to play 8th yet and hes running 3x Baneblade 1x Shadowsword. I don't want to tailor my list against him since its his first game of 8th, but I don't want to play mass grave simulator either.

The list I'm planning on running has an anti tank inventory of a Knight Crusader (thermal/gatling/spear missiles), Pask with Demo cannon/PC sponsons/LC hull, a LR tank commander with BC/LC, 4 lascannons in infantry squads, and two 5 man scion squads with 2 plasmas each. Will this be enough AT to keep it interesting? I imagine the shadowsword is going to give my Knight and vehicles a really bad time.

I mostly play against my brother and a few friends, so we are quite relaxed in such matters. I'm going to email FW about this issue though and see what they say.

As for your game, the problem is he is going to be going first. That basically means he can kill whatever he wants in your army, and the Knight and LRs will be the first things to go. All their main cannons will be wounding you on 3s while only your las-cannons will be doing the same to him. I have a feeling this will be a mass grave simulator but it would be interesting to hear the results!

RogueApiary wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:


I think I will make a core of 2x LR Annihilator Commanders (I know they can't be commanders RAW but it's clearly an oversight to me) with MMs or HBs lead by Pask. I can see them reliably dropping a knight in 1 turn within 24" range.

Would have thought that'd make the FAQ. In any case, you must have some pretty chill opponents at your shop. Or at least ones that haven't read the FW/Imp 2 indices. Mine still won't let Pask order himself and refuse to budge.

Slightly more relevant. I'm playing against a guy who hasnt had a chance to play 8th yet and hes running 3x Baneblade 1x Shadowsword. I don't want to tailor my list against him since its his first game of 8th, but I don't want to play mass grave simulator either.

The list I'm planning on running has an anti tank inventory of a Knight Crusader (thermal/gatling/spear missiles), Pask with Demo cannon/PC sponsons/LC hull, a LR tank commander with BC/LC, 4 lascannons in infantry squads, and two 5 man scion squads with 2 plasmas each. Will this be enough AT to keep it interesting? I imagine the shadowsword is going to give my Knight and vehicles a really bad time.

Your friends have no right to do that. It's absolutely legal to order himself. Page 179 BRB aura abilities.

 Naix wrote:


Your friends have no right to do that. It's absolutely legal to order himself. Page 179 BRB aura abilities.

They point to his second rule, Knight Commander, which notes that Pask "can order other characters" and the fact that Tank Commanders can't order themselves as RAI to mean Pask can only order other tank commanders even though from his actual tank commander rule its plain as day he can order himself.