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Hello,

Just had a friendly game of 40k and for the first time I faced primaris marines with the company ancient standard bearer. As models died close to the CA we resolved this at first with the last gasp attacks happening in sequence, so my chaos marines were dying before they shot, then we revised as the game went on.

So, if I declare an e.g. havoc squad of 2x lascannon and say 2x autocannon all fire at some primaris marines and we resolve the 2x lascannon first, killing one marine can this dead marine shoot back out of phase before the 2x autocannon havocs have fired? Or (this is my view) all the weapons fire simultaneously they are just resolved separately, so all the dead primaris fire back after all the havocs have shot?

Many thanks, sorry for the newb question (very new to none 2nd edition 40k..)

All Rules are resolved Sequentially, even Fast Dice begins with the following:
The rules for resolving
attacks (pg 181) have been
written assuming you will
make them one at a time.

Sequencing Rule, found on page 178, further reinforces this by providing us with a way to determine which Rule resolves first whenever two of them do 'proc' at the same time. So anything which informs us that it is 'occurring simultaneously' still needs to be resolved Sequentially in order to obey the Rules provided. It is also better for Rules to resolve completely at once, though some 'simultaneous resolution' systems do exist which are heads and shoulders above what Game Workshop uses. However, I am not wise in the way of those systems but heavily suspect they are still sequentially as well. They likely involve book-keeping, telling us to use a Sequence to get a result that a later Rule will then require to complete. For example, a Rule telling us to leave the Models on the tabletop until every Shooting Attack has been resolved would look like 'simultaneous shooting' but the only difference is that the 'apply damage' step has been moved to 'end of phase.'

That little side ramble taken care of, Sequentially is the only way, let us look at the timings involved with these Rules:
... INFANTRY model is destroyed within 6" of any
friendly <CHAPTER> ANCIENTS, before removing the model as a casualty ...
- Astartes Banner

If a model’s wounds
are reduced to 0, it is either slain
or destroyed and removed from
play.
- 5. Inflict Damage

Step 5 Destroys the Model when it is reduced to 0 wounds
Astartes Banner "Procs" as the Model has the "destroyed condition"
We do X as per the Banner instructions, in that split-second between being destroyed and Removing the Model
Thus, after we finish with the Banner, our next action is to... Remove the Model

Then we proceed with the rest of the Shooting Attack.

Many thanks for your reply some excellent points and I do mostly agree, but as below something seems odd about this.

Does this issue apply only or at least this query highlights the issue to a greater degree if different weapons are firing at the primaris marines and ancient in question?

Lets say the models firing at the unit near the CA are all of the same weapon type, e.g. its 4 bolters firing which you would be able to roll as fast dice rolls as per 179 as it meets all the conditions to be able to fast roll. Based on this argument you would not be able to fast roll if it were possible that the ancients ability could trigger, you would always have to resolve shots independently in case the ability triggered so the primaris marines could shoot units 'before they shot'.

Its difficult to pin this down exactly but this ability working in this way seemed off to me. Perhaps it was the combination of the primaris marines with the advanced plasma guns rapid firing on overcharge (edit: with the relic or whatever it was changing it to a 3+ success) when dead seemed a lot for the points. Mostly though its because I felt that my models had all fired, and we were just resolving the hits in any sequence.

Many thanks.

Oh there are oddities, just look at the thread about Noise Marines one or two down from this one, but welcome to Game Workshop's style of Rule writing.

Think about this situation:-
Single Model Unit has 2 weapons
Uses one to shoot a Model within 6 inch of this banner
That Model targets the Single Model Unit before it is removed from play
This counter-attack kills the original shooter....
... Is this how Hans shots first?
... No, he didn't get removed as a casualty afterwards, never mind.

As for the same weapon, that is very difficult to answer because of the contradiction within Fast Dice to begin with. It begins by stating the Rules are written with the assumption that they will be resolved one at a time, so every bolt gun completes the sequence independent of each other. It then goes on to provide some additional instructions on how to 'speed up the game' which violate that assumption completely. Many take Fast Dice to be a Rule; you know for being instructions, written in a Rule book, under the Core Rule section at that... so you can evoke it if you are firing a single weapon. However, do keep in mind the below section of the Fast Dice Rule if you walk away with anything from this little side rant.

Your
opponent can then allocate
the wounds one at a time,
making the saving throws
and suffering damage
each time as appropriate.
- Fast Dice

Even if you Fast Dice the damage is applied sequentially and thus the Casualties occur sequentially.

Yes, I have noticed more ambiguity with the rules this edition. I don't remember this at all during rogue trader and 2nd (maybe I just didn't care so much as a kid).

I think the instance you mention above reinforces (well its the way it works in my head) that the last ditch attack happens after all shots are fired otherwise like you say you have a paradox. This could happen quite easily with a tank or dreadnaught equivalent and as I said above fast rolls effectively cant happen. Fun times!

edit: replied before your edit/elaboration.

I laugh a little more about the Noise Marine case, look at the answer below:
Q: If a Noise Marine is slain in the Fight phase, and he uses
his Music of the Apocalypse ability to shoot an Imperium
unit and subsequently rolls a 6+ to hit, does the Death to the
False Emperor ability then grant him an extra attack with that
weapon, even though it’s a ranged weapon?
A: Yes. In this situation, make an extra hit roll against
the target on a hit roll of 6+.

Music of the Apocalypse works in a similar way, it just lacks the 'as if it was the Shooting Phase' piece of terminology. On seeing this possible error due to a secondary Rule interactions, someone wrote in for clarification and we got the... above answer. Naturally they found it strange that a Shooting Attack would benefit from a Rule that would not normally interact with Shooting Attacks, as it is the Fight Phase after all. Piggybacking an additional attack onto the bonus Shooting Attack, through nothing more then a fluke of timing, didn't seem right but....

Nope, working as intended!
With answers like those, I am no longer confident that I can tell what the Authors are thinking by simply using 'did they really intend for this odd outcomes?' as a measuring stick.


PS:
Sorry for the edits, I often try to proof and review and proof.... but never feel it is right, so I post without any satisfaction to the answers provided and review it after posting to often then not. Other habits have also ensured my edit count goes up whenever I find a typo or some sort of spelling mistake... sometimes days after posting... as I can't let it just sit there. I also don't stop researching my answers, so I might often have a particular thought that sends me down a different rabbit hole that finds something bizarre or overlooked. Have to add that additional information, as it might be important to someone else studying just how broken this Edition is, to what I was previously considering.

Again, sorry if it causes any inconvenience.

No problem at all, just didn't want you to think I had not considered all of your response.

I fully agree! This Noise marine question makes little sense. In the CSM codex at least we have the "....after the attacking unit has finished making all of its attacks" which helps , well at least it would have in this specific query.

edit: the 'fast rolling rule' could then allow you to get around this issue by not splitting heavy weapon types in units. i.e. I normally take 2x heavy bolter or autocannons with 2x lascannons in havoc squads. If it were 4 of each you could fast roll and at least get the hits in before getting shot by last ditch shots. Maybe.

Seems stupid still, that you would have to change your Army List just to account for a timing glitch....
I am sure most opponents would understand if you explained your concern to them, it really is faster and simpler to Resolve all of your shots before resolving any counter-attacks.