Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Can forgeworld characters with unknown progenitors be assigned to any <chapter> army? Since FW doesn't have chapter tactics yet, may you use the characters with any CT? How about DA, SW and BA?

You can assign any chapter in the Codex Space Marines rules for them, as per the rules in Codex: Space marines.

You can't assign DA, SW or BA traits to them (at least as of yet) because GW and not provided a rule to let you do so. The most you could do is play as a "counts as" army, using the DA, SW or BA Codex including the characters, and use all their rules for your army. You wouldn't be able to have the Forge World character be assigned one of those armies if Forge World hadn't done it themselves.

That said, there's a possibility that things could change when the BA codex drops. I doubt it, but it's possible.

So lamenters are just SOL then? That sucks.

Lamenters were Blood Angels successors, right? Then I'd say you're fine using the BA codex minus their characters plus your Lamenters characters.

You cannot give forgeworld forces codex rules. DKoK are a "regiment" but they do not have access to adopting a regiments rules. For all intents and purposes Forgeworld forces are like DA BA SW DG and TSons. They get their own book with their own rules whenever FW gets around to producing the new imperial armors.

Not the same. DKoK have their own regiment rules, FW marines do not have their chapter rules. Until FW provides chapter traits (and they have indicated that they eventually will) you can choose whichever trait you want.

 Lance845 wrote:
You cannot give forgeworld forces codex rules.

Wrong. My Deredeo Dreadnought is still a <Chapter> Dreadnought and will benefit from my Salamanders CT.

Lance845 wrote:DKoK are a "regiment" but they do not have access to adopting a regiments rules.

Regiments are not Chapters.

Lance845 wrote:For all intents and purposes Forgeworld forces are like DA BA SW DG and TSons. They get their own book with their own rules whenever FW gets around to producing the new imperial armors.

Except for the tiny detail that the Astartes-FW-Index contains no army lists or "forces" whatsoever. It's just regular Space Marines that will probably, at some point, get their own Chapter Tactics, but still use Codex: Space Marines for any other purpose - at least that's how it worked in the past. The FW chapters aren't unique enough to be their own forces.

nekooni wrote:
Lamenters were Blood Angels successors, right? Then I'd say you're fine using the BA codex minus their characters plus your Lamenters characters.

In 6th and 7th they had to be played as BA, and It's likely RAI that they are in 8th. However, I haven't seen anything that would allow this in 8th. In a similar vein in 6th and 7th Excorcists could be played as anything they pleased. Is this also RAI? In addition all Astarties are now Index 1 armies as of 8th, with the only distinction being <Chapter>. What allows Lamenters to be played as BA, or opposed, what disallows Huron from being played as DA?

nekooni wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
You cannot give forgeworld forces codex rules.

Wrong. My Deredeo Dreadnought is still a <Chapter> Dreadnought and will benefit from my Salamanders CT.

I didn't say UNITS and I said forces. As in the army. Red Scorpions do not get to act like a successor chapter for the codex. Red Scorpions are a different army and will get their own rules in a IA book.

Any UNIT that can be taken as part of a codex force of course has the <Chapter> keyword and can act like a part of that army.

Lance845 wrote:DKoK are a "regiment" but they do not have access to adopting a regiments rules.

Regiments are not Chapters.

Regiments, chapters, hive fleets, and all the other rules like it are the same thing mechanically.

Lance845 wrote:For all intents and purposes Forgeworld forces are like DA BA SW DG and TSons. They get their own book with their own rules whenever FW gets around to producing the new imperial armors.

Except for the tiny detail that the Astartes-FW-Index contains no army lists or "forces" whatsoever. It's just regular Space Marines that will probably, at some point, get their own Chapter Tactics, but still use Codex: Space Marines for any other purpose - at least that's how it worked in the past. The FW chapters aren't unique enough to be their own forces.

If there is no army list how do you include FW characters into a list? They don't have the <CHAPTER> keyword to be replaced by you. They would have the Minotaurs or Red Scorpions or whatever keyword with nothing to tell you that it counts as a <Chapter>.

FW armies have always been their own separate entities until a FW book tells you otherwise. I would PERSONALLY be okay with them using generic WL traits and relics from the codex, but they are not chapters any more than Dark Angles are and they should not be treated as such.

Small hitch. Here's how the community addresses using several FW chapters. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/18/choosing-the-right-chapter-tactic-for-your-successorsgw-homepage-post-4/

 MattKing wrote:
Small hitch. Here's how the community addresses using several FW chapters. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/18/choosing-the-right-chapter-tactic-for-your-successorsgw-homepage-post-4/

Or thats how some community person wrote and artcle about how its fun to paint models and do head cannon. There doesnt appear to be any actual rules or rulings on there.

Yes, I can see how an official GW source telling you how to run exorcists has no bearing on RAI...

 MattKing wrote:
Yes, I can see how an official GW source telling you how to run exorcists has no bearing on RAI...

Most official sources at this point tell you to do whatever you want in narrative and open pretty much at every given opportunity.
40k is and always has been a permission based rule set. Redscorpions is its own army with its own army rules from its own book. Their characters have the red scorpions keyword which is not covered under the codex. Unless you have express permission from a source telling you to treat red scorpions as a successor you dont have permission to do it.

Its NO different from dkok, mephrit dynasty, anphelion hive fleet, renegades and traitors, minotaurs, etc etc... The codexes never aknowlage, reference, or apply to imperial armor in any rules capacity. Ia will however pull datasheets from the codexes. You can take the units strictly from the codex, call them whatever you want, paint them however you want, and play them as one of the chapters that exists in the codex OR you can wait for fw to release rules/faqs for more chapters and then use those characters in their own armies.

I know these aren't rules, but they tell us what gw thinks we're supposed to do with the game - scroll down to the last paragraph :
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/20/new-heroes-warhammer-40000-coming-soon/

nekooni wrote:
I know these aren't rules

So why did you post them?

The RaW is clear. The FW marine characters can benefit from Chapter Tactics the same way any custom chapter can. If the chapter on the character is an established one, you must use the correct parent tactic for that chapter.

What is there in the way of making a successor Chapter Master? I know you can spend 3CP to use that strategem to do so, but isn't there a way to just buy a generic Chapter Master without sucking up a ton of CP?

Gwarok wrote:
What is there in the way of making a successor Chapter Master? I know you can spend 3CP to use that strategem to do so, but isn't there a way to just buy a generic Chapter Master without sucking up a ton of CP?

Nope. Chapter Master isn't a unique datasheet anymore. You have to use a Generic Captain and upgrade him with CP, or use a "real" Chapter Master Named Character ala Calgar.

 Lance845 wrote:


FW armies have always been their own separate entities until a FW book tells you otherwise. I would PERSONALLY be okay with them using generic WL traits and relics from the codex, but they are not chapters any more than Dark Angles are and they should not be treated as such.

Well, that's true for DKoK and Elysians, but right now that's not true for their successor chapter Space Marine armies. As of yet they have not been set up with special rules by FW, only a Chapter Name. As such, they must follow the rules in the Codex: Space Marines book about successor Chapters. There is nothing in the FW rules for 8th edition at this point to justify claiming that they are their own separate entity. If they come out and issue separate Chapter Tactics for their chapters, at that point you use those, but until then you choose from the main book.

Lamenters are a case that should be answered soon, since Blood Angels are supposed to be in the next batch of Codexes. I imagine that when that comes out you'll be able to play them as a successor to BA, with BA rules. Until then, check with your opponent if it's okay for you to do that, but have a back up plan of just running with a C:SM trait just in case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MattKing wrote:
Yes, I can see how an official GW source telling you how to run exorcists has no bearing on RAI...

To be fair, in the article she basically said Your Mileage May Vary, then said choose your own tactics if you don't agree. It does indicate, however, that you can choose one of the existing chapter tactics for Exorcists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nekooni wrote:
I know these aren't rules

So why did you post them?

The RaW is clear. The FW marine characters can benefit from Chapter Tactics the same way any custom chapter can. If the chapter on the character is an established one, you must use the correct parent tactic for that chapter.

The last paragraph was "Excited? Starting your Red Scorpions army is simple – check out Codex: Space Marines, pick a Chapter Tactic you think suits these noble warriors, then grab the rules for your characters – including a pre-Dreadnought Carab Culln in Imperial Armour – Index: Forces of the Adeptus Astartes." Amazing how it matches up with what you said the RAW is.

Having Forge World pipe in on what to do for Chapter Tactics for their army does seem to be something worth posting, especially when it lines up with RAW.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nekooni wrote:
I know these aren't rules

So why did you post them?

The RaW is clear. The FW marine characters can benefit from Chapter Tactics the same way any custom chapter can. If the chapter on the character is an established one, you must use the correct parent tactic for that chapter.

If you had bothered to continue reading, you'd have noticed why. Way to be polite and friendly and constructive in here, mate. You might have also noticed how, apparently, the RAW aren't as clear as you'd like to think as there's two differing opinions in this thread, aren't they?

Opinions don't change what is written. We're lucky in this case there is literally no room for interpretation or opinion, it's crystal clear.

There are plenty of rules arguments that I agree do come down opinion or semantics, but this is not one of them.

So, to summarise with some examples.
Assume that the following take a pure detachment and are selecting the same <CHAPTER> in each case.

If you select RAVEN GUARD, you must use the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic and Stratagems, and have access to the Raven Guard Warlord Trait

If you select RAPTORS, you must use the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic and Stratagems (as they are canonically successor to the Raven Guard), and do not have access to the Raven Guard Warlord Trait

If you select RAPTOORS, you may use any parent legion Chapter Tactic and Stratagems, do not have access to the Raven Guard Warlord Trait and will not benefit from the buffs granted by a Forge World RAPTORS character.

If you select RED SCORPIONS, you may use any parent legion Chapter Tactic and Stratagems, do not have access to the Chapter Specific Warlord Traits and will benefit from the buffs granted by a Forge World RED SCORPIONS character.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Gwarok wrote:
What is there in the way of making a successor Chapter Master? I know you can spend 3CP to use that strategem to do so, but isn't there a way to just buy a generic Chapter Master without sucking up a ton of CP?

Nope. Chapter Master isn't a unique datasheet anymore. You have to use a Generic Captain and upgrade him with CP, or use a "real" Chapter Master Named Character ala Calgar.

I think shriek and kantor and vulkan also have full rerolls to hit so they are essentially chapter masters.

This is what FW answered to me when I asked about Gabriel Angelos:

Forge World wrote:We don't have any Chapter Tactics for the Blood Ravens yet but we know that our studio are working on a set of these along with those for the Space Marine Chapters involved in the Badab War and hopefully these will be published in the near future. In the meantime, as the true nature of the Primogenitor Chapter for the Blood Ravens is uncertain, we suggest using the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics.

It is pretty damn clear that you're supposed to be able to use codex tactics with their characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I think shriek and kantor and vulkan also have full rerolls to hit so they are essentially chapter masters.

Vulkan doesn't, he is't a chapter master, the other two are. It really sucks that some chapters have an option to purchase a chapter master with points while others don't.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Gwarok wrote:
What is there in the way of making a successor Chapter Master? I know you can spend 3CP to use that strategem to do so, but isn't there a way to just buy a generic Chapter Master without sucking up a ton of CP?

Nope. Chapter Master isn't a unique datasheet anymore. You have to use a Generic Captain and upgrade him with CP, or use a "real" Chapter Master Named Character ala Calgar.

I think shriek and kantor and vulkan also have full rerolls to hit so they are essentially chapter masters.

Shrike and Kantor ARE legitimate Chapter Masters (and CHAPTER MASTERS), they've gotten PROMOTIONS since first introduced (the rule they have is even called Chapter Master )

 Crimson wrote:
This is what FW answered to me when I asked about Gabriel Angelos:

Forge World wrote:We don't have any Chapter Tactics for the Blood Ravens yet but we know that our studio are working on a set of these along with those for the Space Marine Chapters involved in the Badab War and hopefully these will be published in the near future. In the meantime, as the true nature of the Primogenitor Chapter for the Blood Ravens is uncertain, we suggest using the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics.

It is pretty damn clear that you're supposed to be able to use codex tactics with their characters.

Are you citing a supposed email in YMDC?

 Lance845 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
This is what FW answered to me when I asked about Gabriel Angelos:

Forge World wrote:We don't have any Chapter Tactics for the Blood Ravens yet but we know that our studio are working on a set of these along with those for the Space Marine Chapters involved in the Badab War and hopefully these will be published in the near future. In the meantime, as the true nature of the Primogenitor Chapter for the Blood Ravens is uncertain, we suggest using the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics.

It is pretty damn clear that you're supposed to be able to use codex tactics with their characters.

Are you citing a supposed email in YMDC?

Instead of latching onto that minor detail - how about responding to BCBs pretty good summary of how that's the rules as written anyway?
This is a really annoying trend in here - instead of adding to the discussion people just try to discredit contributions of others, as if that would answer the question at hand.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Assume that the following take a pure detachment and are selecting the same <CHAPTER> in each case.

If you select RAVEN GUARD, you must use the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic and Stratagems, and have access to the Raven Guard Warlord Trait

If you select RAPTORS, you must use the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic and Stratagems (as they are canonically successor to the Raven Guard), and do not have access to the Raven Guard Warlord Trait

If you select RAPTOORS, you may use any parent legion Chapter Tactic and Stratagems, do not have access to the Raven Guard Warlord Trait and will not benefit from the buffs granted by a Forge World RAPTORS character.

If you select RED SCORPIONS, you may use any parent legion Chapter Tactic and Stratagems, do not have access to the Chapter Specific Warlord Traits and will benefit from the buffs granted by a Forge World RED SCORPIONS character.

That's actually pretty helpful, thanks.

nekooni wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
This is what FW answered to me when I asked about Gabriel Angelos:

Forge World wrote:We don't have any Chapter Tactics for the Blood Ravens yet but we know that our studio are working on a set of these along with those for the Space Marine Chapters involved in the Badab War and hopefully these will be published in the near future. In the meantime, as the true nature of the Primogenitor Chapter for the Blood Ravens is uncertain, we suggest using the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics.

It is pretty damn clear that you're supposed to be able to use codex tactics with their characters.

Are you citing a supposed email in YMDC?

Instead of latching onto that minor detail - how about responding to BCBs pretty good summary of how that's the rules as written anyway?
This is a really annoying trend in here - instead of adding to the discussion people just try to discredit contributions of others, as if that would answer the question at hand.

Lance845 is not wrong. Even if you have the right of it, citing emails and other non-applicable "evidence" just weakens your argument.

I posted a summary of how it works RaW and that's how you should play it, baring making up wishy washy house rules that have no place in YMDC. I'm happy to parse out any exact examples you may have.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Opinions don't change what is written. We're lucky in this case there is literally no room for interpretation or opinion, it's crystal clear.

There are plenty of rules arguments that I agree do come down opinion or semantics, but this is not one of them.

So, to summarise with some examples.
Assume that the following take a pure detachment and are selecting the same <CHAPTER> in each case.

If you select RAVEN GUARD, you must use the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic and Stratagems, and have access to the Raven Guard Warlord Trait

If you select RAPTORS, you must use the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic and Stratagems (as they are canonically successor to the Raven Guard), and do not have access to the Raven Guard Warlord Trait

If you select RAPTOORS, you may use any parent legion Chapter Tactic and Stratagems, do not have access to the Raven Guard Warlord Trait and will not benefit from the buffs granted by a Forge World RAPTORS character.

If you select RED SCORPIONS, you may use any parent legion Chapter Tactic and Stratagems, do not have access to the Chapter Specific Warlord Traits and will benefit from the buffs granted by a Forge World RED SCORPIONS character.

It's bit pointless to say if you select then you must use xxx because you select simply chapter tactic. There's no stage before that really except unless you count player deciding what chapter tactic he feels gives best advantage for models he plans to field.

Except if you pick Ultramarines as your <CHAPTER> there is no possible way to pick any tactic other than the Ultramarines one.

That's my point.

The way the rules work now is if you want access to the special dudes, you have to actually pick the right keyword. You cannot "counts as" anymore. You can paint your dudes purple for all the rules care, but if you want Rowboat Girlyman to buff you, you pick the ULTRAMARINES as your <CHAPTER> and are locked to said tactics.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Except if you pick Ultramarines as your <CHAPTER> there is no possible way to pick any tactic other than the Ultramarines one.

Well gee. You pick ultramarine the point you pick the chapter tactic. Before that at most you go for "hmmm do my models benefit more from ultramarine tactics or white scars...".

Paint scheme etc is irrelevant. You can run marines painted in ultramarines with all the ultramarine insignia you can think of with FW shoulder pads etc as a white scars or chaos marines.