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Tyranid Hive Fleet Rankings

A few things to consider, which I can elaborate on later. I look at how these traits effect 3 things which I will call Currency of 40k. No not $, but DICE ROLLS. How is this calculated? Three things: Attacks, Wounds, and Command points. I don’t look at saves because it is too situational and various based on AP, Armor values, and the numerous other in game effects. I am looking at baseline stats of the attacks and wounds of a model, and the Detachments taken and how many CP are available for juicy rerolls and stratagems. This analysis is strictly looking at Named Hive Fleet Characteristics. Therefore, I am not basing the ranking on universal stratagems, relics, or warlord traits, just the HIVE FLEET named ones.

More Dice Rolls = More Currency = Better chances of Winning.

When reading this I would like to disclose up front a few things:
I do not claim to be a Supreme Being, merely a Mastermind. J/k, this is simply my interpretation of a very new codex to get a starting point. I know this will likely change as the community tries new things, combos, stratagems etc…
This may create controversy, rage, saltyness, hate, but at least it has you thinking.

I have not played and tried all these combos yet, it is simply impossible. I do read the forums quite a bit, especially the tactica articles. I look at list design, I play with list, I have an excel sheet with about a dozen list as of now.
My goal is to make Tyranid players the best players. I want Tyranids to be the Biggest, Baddest, Motha Fucka’s in the galaxy. I want us to eat the GW statue and replace it with the biggest most bad ass Ripper Statue you have ever seen! We expect no mercy and sure as hell show none.

Prepare yourself Ripper, for there is much to devourer. By the end I hope to have expanded your knowledge so that you may conquer for the Hive Mind. Hopefully, you can bring your own new and perhaps contradicting strategy’s and ideas. I encourage this, it helps the Hive Mind learn, grow, and consume.

Jormungandr 7th
The Cover Bonus to army saves, and the tunnels. I know a lot of people like this, why placed last? Let me explain.

Stratagem: The best thing this Fleet has going for it is the Strategem, which allows you to really deliver an alpha strike with DS units. The downside of this, we can already do that anyway with a host of units, flyrants, genestealers, trygon taxis, lictors taxis, floating spore mines, etc… Chances are unless you are strapped for Trygon taxis you will have other ways to get your models on the board via DS.
If half the army doesn’t have to be on the table this would be infinitely more valuable. If you play it right, you can take a unit of Raveners, and a lector, spend 2 CP (1 for this stratagem and 1 for Pheromone trail) and get two rally cheap taxi’s in the same phase. Downside, we can’t take monsters creatures in the tunnel and it still follows the DS rules.

Relic: The relic is horrible, taking your free relic slot for a -1 to leadership is pointless. With the amount of Fearless stuff, leadership buffs/stratagems/rerolls, there is just no value here.

Warlord Trait: The ability to ignore cover for enemy units is good, but your WL has to be within 3” of friendly units. Chances are your warlord is either a Broodlord, Swarmlord, or Flyrant, the first 2 are melee oriented and likely means your shooting units aren’t going to be within 3” of him unless gak has seriously gone south.
The flyrant could be beneficial, if he is on a Dakka loadout, but now you are having to babysit your gunline. And the guns you are going to want to use it for with the High AP, High Str anti tank might mean you are placing a lot of points into a Flyrant babysitting an exocrine for just a -1. Even if you find value there, how much stuff is actually in cover versus just getting a -1 to hit from a Spell/stratagem/ or other effect.

Hive Fleet Adaptation: Now, the reason pick this, the cover save. Again, how often are our giant swarms in cover. Hive guard would be the noticeable benefit of this since they can shoot without line of sight, but everything else needs to be in LoS. With the amount of AP and armies that have rules that ignore cover benefits, this becomes situational at best. Add to that flyers don’t get it (Flyrant, Gargoyles, harpies, crones) and if you advance or charge (or fail a charge) you don’t get it.
A lot of our units have short range. 18” devourer is our average gun vs a lot of other armies at 24”. We are forced to move up and shoot. Your backline big guns may find a benefit, like the exocrines/tyrnaofex, biovores/dakkafex, but how many of those are usually in a list. 4-8 models on average (2 excorines/tyranofex/dakkafex, a unit of 3 -6 biovores). Your burning your army wide stratagem to benefit 8 models.
Even if you tailor your army to a pure Shooty style list, then you are already putting yourself at a disadvantage. Tyranids are not meant to be a shooty army, yes they can shoot, and have enough, but if your facing off against a gunline of Tau, Imperial Guard, Ultramarine Spam, they are going to blast you off the table before you have a chance. We simply don’t have enough ranged AP. (Though it has gotten better this Codex).

Phase Domination: The Shooting Phase will be the best phase for this army type if play correctly. You need to take a gunline, long range type army. The issue being that there are other armies out their which can out gunline us.


Behemoth 6th
Your still here, that means you have at least accepted the fact that Tyrranids are not a gunline/shooty army and are looking to improve. Congrats, keep reading, you have risen to gaunt.

Behemoth is great for deep striking heavy armies that like to use Trygon and Lictor taxis. Take adrenal glands on your Genestealers, hormagaunts, and Trygons to make this even better.

[b]Stratagem: This can be good, again, like most stratagems is highly situational. If your horde of hormies or genestealers is charging a massive horde or orks or conscripts and you get a lot of models within an inch, this can be a good way to get some fast mortal wounds. For the monsterous creature, unless you are charging a high value target with a single wound left, it better left to not take. An instance of good use would be to boomerang into that single model use this stratagem to kill it, then consolidate forward, or combo with the Overrun Stratagem, but again, highly situational.

Relic: This is actually pretty good, through this on a Flyrant with 2x ST and get extra strength and the ability to deal extra attacks. Make sure you take toxin sacs. Best combined with the Behemoth WL Trait as well. On 6’s you are getting extra attacks, plus the TS and WLT damage of +2 on top of the weapon. Good melee combo.

Warlord Trait: See above, great combo with the relic, if you are taking the relic then make sure to grab this, they synergize really well. Make sure you kit out your WL for pure Melee.

Hive Fleet Adaptation: This is one that looks good on paper, but in practice isn’t necessary. Its not bad, but is more of a situational list. This is best used for heavy Deep Striking Armies. Trygon and Lictor Taxis mostly. Still with rerolls on the charge at 9” you are looking at a 47.84% chance of success, adding adrenal glands means you need 8” and it kicks up to 59.03% chance of success.
Consider just spending a CP to reroll the lowest die, and you are looking at a 48.16% chance of getting a 9”+ charge, and a massive 69.92% chance of getting an 8”. Why waste your entire HFA for a few units that may get a DS charge, when you can just spend a CP.

If we could field pure Deep Strike armies then this one would definitely rise in value, but chance are you are only taking 2 DS taxis in a list, and often times one of those units will be the 30x Devilgants with double tap. Use the single CP to reroll the lowest die on your DS Genestealers and watch them shred the enemy. Something that can be done with any other fleet, say Leviathan with a Trygon Prime for Feel no Pain buff.

Phase Domination: Fight Phase. Anything to ensure you get your units into that charge is vital. Often after you get that initial charge, even if stuff falls back you will still be able to lock them up as they are still within charge range.



Gorgon 5th[/b]
Do you want to kill? Are you ready for blood, guts, and gore, and veins between your teeth? You have evolved to Genestealer.

If you can hit stuff you are going to kill stuff. The wound masters of the Tyranids. Wound rerolls are a valuable currency as rerolls to wound are much more rare than the common to hit rerolls.

Stratagem: For 1cp your toxin sacs deal extra damage on a 5+. Not bad, not great. This requires you pay for toxin sacs, probably really only worth taking and using on 30 blobs of Hormigaunts. TS on genestealers are too expensive. Great for units that have 2 wound models. Great if you manage to DS a Trygon with Hormie swarm all equipped with TS and get into the Tanks/Gunline. The issue is, you have to pay for the TS and find a target worthy of doing the extra damage. This is wasted on 1 wound models as damage doesn’t carry over. Use it wisely.

Relic: This can be good, if it works right. The problem is it kicks in at the end of the Phase, rather than after the first wound. So if the entire army focus your Hive Tyrant and one shots him off the board turn 1 you wont get the benefit. If he does survive, getting the T8 on a Hive Tyrant is just going to make him all the more durable.
The silver lining, it doesn’t have to be enemy wounds. If you are somehow lucky enough to force a perils of the warp on a HT, and take 1 damage in your turn when you first, then activate the T8 on your HT, you can charge into combat with T8 for the rest of the game. Just don’t forget. Once you get this I suggest taking a pencil and marking out your toughness on your army roster and changing it so you remember.

Warlord Trait: Yuk. This seems ok, but likely to be a game changer. Unless you are somehow able to DS a Flyrant right in the middle of a castled up enemy, this is likely to do much. It only goes off on a 50% chance, and you have to be locked into combat. And its its just a single mortal wound. If this were D3 it would be way better and turn out Flyrants into Character killers. Even if you somehow manage to get locked into a fight with a big baddy for the entire game, you are doing 3 wounds on average over the course of that game. You are spending your WL trait to get a round of Smite. Look elsewhere.

Hive Fleet Adaptation: This is the best part of this HFA. Arguably this could be the best one overall, but like most things, depends on the list. The list just needs to be tailored. Take lots of Melee focused units that can dish out attacks. Lots of Hormies, and Genestealers in large units to get the reroll to hits, then this stratagem gets the valuable reroll to wounds. Trygons, Screamer Killers, Swarmlord Combo with the Malanthrope reroll to hit for Prey adaptation, this is gold. This “currency” of rerolls is rare. Getting army wide reroll to wound is crazy good. Toxin sacs can magnify this, take them where you can.
If you are a player that always seems to fluff your wound rolls take this and think the Hive Mind later.

Phase Domination: Fight Phase- you will kill stuff, rerolls to wound is very valuable as these are the dice that force your opponent to roll. Just make sure you get into Close Combat.



Leviathan 4th

Welcome my new Tyranid Warrior. You are Middle Management. Great delegator of emails, meetings, and pretending to be valuable while you learn how to be a big boss.

The classic Nid Color scheme, balanced army, flier focus. If you like Gargoyles, Harpies, Flyrants, Crones, take this fleet.

Stratagem: This is crap. Well, that’s harsh, this is highly situational. You need to take fliers and ground troops for this to possible work. So that means Gargoyles, Harpies, Flyrants (Shrikes if you borrow from index). You have to get BOTH a flying and Non Flying unit in combat. This is certainly possible and would be probably best with DS Flyrants and/or Gargoyles charging into the enemy rear with their large movement while your GS or Hormies charge the front. Unlikely to happen easily if you enemy deploys correctly to deny DS.
Besides, chances are though, if your using Malanthropes or large units of troops you are already rerolling to hit rolls of 1 anyway. The best value of this is getting to reroll Wound rolls. Wound rolls are a higher value currency than hit rolls because that is what kills stuff.

Relic: This is ehh… An attempt to make the Swarmlord Sabres and make them better. But situational as it only works on infantry and bikes. Chances are your WL isn’t killing infantry and bikes, his job is to kill the big baddies. Now if he is dueling enemy infantry heroes their could be some value here, especially if you are trying to get that last wound on a stubborn model and don’t have any CP left to reroll wounds rolls. When I look at this versus the universal “Reaper of Obliterax” I ask myself which is better, and the answer is the RoO. Better damage to all targets, if your gonna take a relic for boneswords, take the RoO instead.

Warlord Trait: This is really good. This is an extra CP point round, that’s at least 5, maybe 6 if the game goes on. That’s 5 extra currency. This Trait is basically equal to a battleforge battalion being fielded. Think about that, a BF battalion gives you 6 CP. The cheapest way to get that cost 239 points (2x Neurothropes and 3x rippers). If you take this fleet, take this trait! Just make sure you don’t forget to use them. My advice, save them for to Wound and Damage Rolls until your WL gets low, and then keep it in your back pocket to pass the crucial armor save needed to stay in the fight. Don’t use on to hit rolls, as the enemy still has a chance to pass a test to negate your CP. In fact, as a general rule, never use a CP on a too hit roll, unless it’s a CP used to generate the number of attacks, D6 for instance and you roll a 1. And remember, if you fluff your wound rolls, don’t use the CP to reroll a single wound, when we have a 1CP stratagem to reroll all to wound rolls, (Voracious Appetite) useful if you fluff all your wound rolls.

Hive Fleet Adaptation: Fantastic, army wide Feel No Pain within 6” of Synapse. Only the Unit has to be within 6” of Synpase, not the model, so you can daisy chain if need, but honestly probably wont. Lots of stuff give Synapse and often you are going to be close to a synapse creature to get another bonus. Example Broodlord next to genestealers, Tervigon nest to Termigants, Flyrant, go where needed. Not to mention warriors are viable now, and you can intersperse these guys into any unit. Put a cheap unit of 3 warriors with hormies for example. Why is this so good? It’s 1/6 .1667 more wounds to your army. Remember wounds is one of our currencys of Dice Rolls, not to mention you will always get this even if stuff ignores armor, or you have no invul save, or smite spam, mortal wounds. You get at least a chance to survive. Remember, if a unit doe D3 or D6 mortal wounds, you get a save for each wound, not just the dice roll. So if a unit does 3 mortal wounds, you 3 chances to save. From a currency standpoint, your army just got 1/6 more valuable.

Phase Domination: Enemy Shooting and Fight Phase, Jack of all Trades, Master of None. If you build your list right, with plenty of Synapse, and fliers you will get the opportunity to reroll a lot of stuff. To get the best of this you need to take warriors/shrikes (index), and ensure synapse coverage and wombo combo charges with flying and non flying.


Kronos 3rd

You beat out the rest of middle management and grew into a big bad MC, no not DJ, a monstrous creature. Guess what you get to pick what you want to be? Mawloc? No too much blind rage? Maybe a Exocrine, blast them from afar? Not for you, do you want to be up close and personal? Carnifex then the original gansta it is! And guess, what, you get to pick what kind you want be when you grow up!

If you know you are playing an army that relies on Pyskers take this HF. Eldar, Daemons, Grey Knights, this will destroy them. It seems like GW made this HF as a direct counter to the Daemons Brimstone/smite spam.

Stratagem: Force enemy to roll 1 dice on Psychic test if within 24” of a kronos UNIT. Not Synapse creature, but unit, any unit. Those pesky little rippers holding the table quarter can grant this bonus.
This is really good, arguably the best HF stratagem. Why? Several reasons. A lot of armies rely on Pyskic spells to buff critical units for good wombo combo’s. Smite Spam is a thing that deals mortal wounds. This Stratagem combines with our Shadow in the Warp, and the Kronos WL trait is just nasty. Most powers have an 18 or 24” range so you are more than likely going to be in range if they are targeting your untis. Add to that the short range of most of our guns, and the amount of melee based units we have, this is going to force us to close the gap and pretty much always be within 24.” The only downside is you can only use it one per phase, make sure you know what Pyskic powers your enemy has and what powers are the crutch powers they rely on (Eldar Doom and Fortune for example.)

Relic: Ignore invul saves, yes please. This is great, especially if you take a Dakka Flyant, if possible try not to move the Flyrant to get the benefit of the reroll. Great for stuff with low armor and good invul saves, in a mirror match shoot Genestealers and Zoanthropes with this. Daemons are going to feel the pain. The AP isn’t hot though, so taking out Characters with great AS and IS are not necessarily the best option.

Warlord Trait: This is a great synergy with the Strategem. This is a passive, so it just happens, but the stratagem can almost guarantee they will fail after the SitW and only 1 die, a lot of powers need 5,6,7’s to go off, and you are instantly denying the success of that. Even the powers that need 5’s are unlikely to pass. If an enemy Pysker or Character is sitting on one wound, be sure to park that WL within 18”, which also is our Synapse range. You are basically dishing out Perils of the Warp on any save test, which can be quite a lot if you use the stratagem.

Hive Fleet Adaptation: Reroll 1’s for shooting units if they don’t move. This is ok, but I actually ranked this last. Why? Because in comparison to other shooty armies it just isn’t going to work. First off, you can’t move, and we have a lot of short range guns. We do have a few 36” and 48” guns, mainly Exocrine, Tyrannofex and Hive Guard. The Exocrine and Tyrannofex can still move and shoot wihout penalty. If you are going for a gunline army then this is the obvious choice, the problem is, its only going to benefit a few units in your army. Carnifexes are likely going to be moving, as are your hive tyrants. Devilgaunts might get a use out of it, but you are going to have to be really close, and you can’t use it if you DS in for the dreaded devil doubletap (180 shots), as you are considered having moved. The other reason this isn’t as good as it appears, is for two reasons, you can only reroll 1’s as opposed to misses, and we have a lot of BS 4+ stuff. How many times have your rolled ten 2’s and no ones? Also, this is on the to hit rolls, which aren’t as valuable as the to wound rolls in terms of our currency.

Keep in mind, this game requires movement, to get in range, to capture objectives, to achieve objectives, to screen units, etc…Likely only your big back guns are going to get the benefit of this. There are better gunline armies out their that will be more than happy to have a shooting war with you. (they will win). Whenever someone plays Tyranids, 9 out of 10 times they are expecting you to be the “attacker” and rightfully so. Our army favors close combat. I am sorry if you don’t like that, but if you want a pure shooting Xenos army, there are better choices.

Remember the Malanthrope. Take them, get him into a fight early and give your entire army rerolls to hit on everything. That 90 point model overrides this HFA.
Still not convinced? Lets say you take your Exocrine Bioplasmic canon which can do Heavy 6, 36” range. You don’t move and shoot 2x, so your getting a +1 to hit. On average you are getting 1 reroll on average, 2 if you use the shoot twice. If you have to move this guy you may as well not take him. Your 3+ double shots, go to a 5+ and single shots. He degrades, I can go on. The Tyrannofex is similar, though with a few different gun options. If you are playing long ways, chance are your enemy is going to deploy far enough back to force you to move at least one, maybe twice, even if you deploy short wise on table, you have to place your Exocrine at the edge of your deployment zone to ensure he can reach everything. This likely means he is taking up space for your other bugs that need to be at the edge to ensure they can close quickly with the enemy.

In conclusion, you are taking this HFA which will only really benefit a few artillery units and maybe some Termagaunts once or twice in a game, which even if you spammed 3x exocrines, happened to get perfect conditions where they all don’t need to move, you are getting 6 rerolls on average. This HFA seems viable, but give the limited range of our army, longest gun is 48” and we only have 1 unit with that, a few 36” and a lot of 18 and 12” stuff, we are meant to be the army closing in on the enemy. Even if you find yourself not moving to get the benefits and go full shooty, you are forgetting the first rule of wargame, MOVEMENT IS KEY, MOVEMENT WINS GAMES. Shooting is the Bluff, the Red Herring, the False God…you get the idea.


Phase Domination: Pyskic Phase will be yours. Hard counter to Eldar and Deamons. Shadow in the Warp range, ability to make enemy lose pysker spells, and force powers on one die roll, you will have dominance, just make sure to take plenty of Synapse. Neurothrpes, Zoanthropes, even Warriors might be useful here to get a lot of synapse coverage to expand the SitW. Just remember your Smite and Pyskic Scream must target the closet unit.




Hydra 2nd

You clawed your way through the enemy. You have found it take more than brute force, lots of guns, and luck to win. You have become a true master of strategy. Go forth my Hive Tyrant and devourer!

The swarm fleet. Valuable where we can often put out more models on the board than the enemy can kill

Stratagem: For 2 cp you can select a destroyed unit of Infantry and replace it. This is situational. The downside, until its gets FAQ is that you have to pay for the unit as reinforcement points, why would you not just buy a 2nd unit at that point. If this becomes a replacement rather than reinforcement (like the tervigon replenish ability) then it certainly becomes valuable. The saving grace of this is you can use any Infantry. So if you want to respawn some decked out warriors you can. Arguably, you could use this on a Tyranid Prime Warlord and if the enemy kills him, respawn the warlord at the end of the battle to deny the Victory points. However, you still have to pay the points, and its better to have alpha strikes and put stuff down earlier. If it gets FAQ’d it will certainly become more valuable.

Relic: Fantastic relic on a Flyrant with a pair Deathspitters, the coveted reroll to wound. The more valuable rerolls, the better currency. This is great on a Flyrant that is needing to hunt down enemy fliers. If your giving your FLyrant guns, take this relic, and with the limited availability of stuff Tyranids have to kill fliers, this relic becomes even more valuable.

Warlord Trait: Regain a wound on a 6+ every turn. Awesome! This has a compound return effect. Your hive Tyrant sitting on 1 wound at the end of turn 4, worried your going to give the enemy that Slay the Warlord Objective, you get to roll 11 dice to regain wounds. This Trait IMO is going to make your enemy focus their entire army at your warlord if they want to kill him or he has a chance to heal. This is like Guillimans armor regen, but better because its per wound per phase. If you take this fleet take this Trait.

Hive Fleet Adaptation: This is ehh. Rerolling to hits when you outnumber the enemy in the fight phase. You are likely to get this a lot, but its situational. What makes this valuable is that fact that a lot of things already grant rerolls to hit on 1’s. This does grant rerolls on all misses, not just 1’s, so there is that.
You will get this most of the game against marines who run 10 man tac squads or likely 5 man combat squads, scouts or terminators. Really the only army you are likely not to get this against would be other horde armies like Orks, Tyranids, Imperial Guard. Basically, Xenos armies are horde armies, so if you fighting anything but that you are likely getting rerolls.
However, none of your monsters are going to get the benefit of this. Also, a lot of horde units like Hormies already get reroll 1’s. Malanthrope bonus reroll 1’s, Broodlord to genestealer, etc… There are plenty of reroll to 1’s, but you could certainly use this if you like to roll 2’s.
The downside of this is you got to bring lots of models, which means lots of painting, lots of time moving said models, etc… If you like playing horde armies though, this can be great way to ensure you get your hits.

Phase Domination: Fight Phase, Board Control. You ability to reroll to hit, you need to get into combat fast. Your sheer number of models will allow you to control the board, deny enemy DS zones, grab objectives, and overwhelm the enemy. Not to mention the real life psychological effect of having to kill 150+ models. Note: in a timed tournament setting this can be an issue when you have to move all the model.



Kraken 1st [u]

You have learned much, from mighty ripper to smartass Hive Tyrant, what is next? Bio Titan? Sure, but we have our look beyond this galaxy. We will go Boldly go where no Hive has gone before, into the ‘Verse where no power can stop us. We are more than apes who want to live forever. We will conquer this galaxy and the next. We will even take on the mightiest of them all, the dreaded Mickey Mouse who lives in his fancy Castle with his all-encompassing reach from A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away…

“If it’s a fast ship you ask?” “Fast ship, you never heard of the Millennium Kraken? It’s the fleet that made the Warp run across the Ultima Segmentum. She’s fast enough for you young whipper snapper. We are the fastest bugs in the galaxy!

Kraken will put you in your opponents face turn 1 if you are playing right, and when you lock up their gunline turn 1, all they can do is slow the inevitable as you devourer them piece by piece.

Stratagem: Combo with your Adaptation, these synergize very well and allow you to move around the board quick. Rolling 3d6 picking the highest, there is a good chance you are getting a 5+, moving 10” in advance before your move and or charge. Fantastic ability for genestealers, the crem de le crème of assault units in all of 40k.

Relic: When compared to other Hive Fleet Relics, this one is fairly strong. There are some other great universal relics that might be worth taking, but compared to other named relics, a -1 to hit from shooting can be fantastic. Lots of armies rely on the shooting phase, so you can throw this on a Melee based Flyrant and not have to worry about staying in a Venomthrope/Malanthrope shroud.

Warlord Trait: If you build a Kraken hive fleet then you should definitely be fielding lots of melee based units. Having your Warlord in the center of multiple units can guarantee you get to fight first and not worry about dying or recharging if you do want to stay locked in combat to avoid being shot. This is a good backup for the HF adaptation, especially if this is on a Flyrant as he can breakoff at will and fly in wherever he is needed to give those critical units the first strike.

Hive Fleet Adaptation: The most critical piece of warfare is maneuver, both in reality, and war gaming. The ability to move and strike where the enemy does not expect is a great advantage, often outweighing firepower. Why? Because this allows you to dictate the flow of battle, which means your opponent is playing your game, reacting to your plan. You are commanding the field. I often think back to 8th Warhammer, where I played Bretonnians, a fallen from grace army, but won, A LOT, because of my armies quickness. The knights and Pegasus Knights had fantastic movement that the enemy just hadn’t plan for. Tyranids are much the same way. Take Genestealers, Gargoyles, and Hormaguants and you wont regret it.

Fantastic choice to allow our units to close quickly We have a lot of units capable of deep strike and this allows us to maneuver quickly around the board. Might even be better to consider DS behind some Line of Sight blocking terrain so you are not shot, then move and advance and charge next turn. With the potential to deny over watch by charging from out of line of sight this is great.
The 2nd great part, you can Fall Back and charge in the same turn. Much like fliers which can breakoff, now your entire army can do this. You get to dictate the fights. Remember if you charge you attack first, which can be critical rather than alternating locked in melee. Did you opponent charge to lock you in to combat to keep you from grabbing a free objective? No problem, break off and move where you want.
In addition, if you have fliers like Gargoyles, Tyrants, Harpies with guns and melee, you can break off, fire your guns, charge back in, fight first. Wombo Combo FtW.

Phase Domination: Movement phase. The key to battle, speed and aggression. You have the ability to shift across the table quickly. Movement is often overlooked in wargaming to the more sexy shooting phase. Remember, movement allows you to dictate the battle. “Offense gets the glory, but defense wins the game,” the movement phase is the defense, and the shooting/fight phase are the offense. This HFA and its dominance in this phase can allow for quick flnaking, objective grabbing, redeployment of units, longer and often unexpected charges, and the ability to fight first in pretty much every fight phase. Just make sure you take the right units.

I have an excel sheet for the below if its easier to read.
 
Avg Rank Fleet Theme
0.857142857 1st Kraken Fast Advance Movement
1.571428571 2nd Hydra Swarm Tactics, Hitting in the Fight Phase, Regeneration
2.285714286 3rd Kronos Pysker/Anti Pysker, Shooting
2.571428571 4th Leviathan Feel No Pain, Universal Rerolls
2.714285714 5th Gorgon Great on Wounds in Fight Phase
2.714285714 6th Behemoth Devastating Charges, Bonus on Charging in Fight Phase, Charge from Deepstriking
3.142857143 7th Jormungandr Tunnels, Deepstrike, Cover Bonus/Ignore Cover

Rank Trait Fleet Description
1 HFA Kraken Kraken: When a unit with this adaptation Advances, roll three dice instead of one and pick the highest to add to the Move characteristic of all models in the unit for that Movement phase. In addition, such units can Fall Back and charge in the
same turn. (shoot and melee wombo combo)
2 WL Kraken Kraken: 1 friendly kraken unit within 6 of wlt, can fight first in fight phase even without charging
1 STRAT Kraken 1cp Opportunistic Advance- Use in the Movement Phase. Choose a Kraken unit that does not have the Fly keyword. When Advancing you can double number you roll when determining how much to add to the unit's Movement
characteristic.
2 RELIC Kraken Chameleonic Mutations (Kraken): -1 to hit from shooting attacks


3 HFA Gorgon Gorgon: You can re-roll wound rolls of 1 in the Fight phase for units with this adaptation
7 WL Gorgon Gorgon: end of fight phase. roll d6 for every enemy within 1" of warlord. on 4+, that unit suffer a MW.
5 STRAT Gorgon 1cp Hypertoxicity (Gorgon)- fight phase. choose gorgon wiht toxin sac, the biomorph do 1 additional dmg on wounds roll of 5+ instead of 6
4 RELIC Gorgon Hyperadaptive Biology (Gorgon): From the end of the first phase in which this model suffers any wounds, add 1 to its Toughness for the remainder of the battle


6 HFA Jormungandr Jormungandr: A unit with this adaptation (other than units that can fly) always has the benefit of cover for the purpose of shooting attacks. If the unit advances or charges, however, it loses the benefits of this adaptation until the start of
your movement phase.
6 WL Jormungandr Jormungandr: Enemy unit dont gain bonus to saving throw for being in cover by attacks from wl, or friendly Jormungandr units within 3 of wl.
3 STRAT Jormungandr 1cp the enemy below (Jormungandr) -use strat when jor inf set up, put it undergorund. whenever you set up raveners mawloc trygon or trygon prime. any no of its unit can be set up within the tunnels, 3 inch from burrowing unit ,9
inch away enemy.
7 RELIC Jormungandr Infrasonic Roar (Jorgmungandr) : Monster only. Enemy unit within 6 inch of this model must subtract 1 from LD.


7 HFA Kronos Kronos: You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for units with this adaptation in your Shooting phase if they did not move in the preceding Movement phase
4 WL Kronos Kronos: Enemy psyker fail a psychic test within 18" of your wl, they suffer D3 MW
2 STRAT Kronos 1cp Against Shadow (Kronos)- enemy psyker attempts to cast a spell within 24 inch of kronos unit. that psyker can only use 1 dice for his psyk test.
3 RELIC Kronos Balethorn Cannon (Kronos): Replaces Stranglethorn. Ignores invuln saves


5 HFA Hydra Hydra: You can re-roll hit rolls in the Fight phase for units with this adaptation that target units containing fewer models than their own
1 WL Hydra Hydra: Beginning of each of your turn, roll a dice for each wound WL suffered, on a 6, heal.
4 STRAT Hydra 2cp Endless Swarm -(Hydra) Select a destroyed unit of gants, horms, garg or any hydra inf unit that has been completely destroyted. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcement wholly 6inch of any board edge ,
more than 9 inch from enemy
1 RELIC Hydra Slimer Maggot Infestatation (Hydra): Replaces pair of slimer deathspitters. Re-rolls failed wounds


2 HFA Leviathan Leviathan: Roll a D6 each time a unit with the adaptation loses a wound whilst it is within 6" of a friendly Synapse unit from the same hive fleet. On a 6, the damage is ignored and the unit does not lose a wound. Ignore this adaptation on a
unit that is currently affected by the Catalyst psychic power.
3 WL Leviathan Leviathan : 1 per battle round. you can reroll a single hit/wound/dmg /advance charge or saving throw for the wl.
7 STRAT Leviathan 1cp war on all fronts (leviathan)-fight phase. select enemy within 1inch of 1 flying and 1 nonflying leviathan unit. can reroll hits & wound rolls of 1 for levi attacks against the enemy unit
6 RELIC Leviathan Slayer Sabres (Leviathan): Replaces monstrous boneswords. If against infantry or biker model suffers dmg from this weapon but not slain at end of fight phase, roll d3. if result is greater than wounds remaining on the model, the model
is slain.


4 HFA Behemoth Behemoth: You can re-roll failed charge rolls for units with this adaptation
5 WL Behemoth Behemoth: Wound roll of 6 in fight phase. that attack +1 dmg
6 STRAT Behemoth 1cp brute force (behemoth)-use when benemoth unit complete charge . roll d6 for each behemoth charging model within 1inch of enemy. each roll of 6, 1 MW on enemy unit. 2+ for a behemoth monster charging; (30 man gant charge
in, roll d6 for all, on a 6 chuck a mw)
4 RELIC Behemoth Scythes of Tyran (Behemoth): Replaces massive scything talons. Adds +1S and generates extra attack on to hit of 6+

You have jormungandrs stuff wrong.

First, you spend the cp pre game in deployment. Its not a phase so you can use the stratagem multiple times. You dont need to combine it with pheromone trail to get 2 units deepstriking that normally couldnt.

Second pheromone trail doesnt let you deepstrike a unit that isnt deployed into reserves already anyway. So you need some other method to put the hormagaunts, termagants, whatever into reserve first, THEN use pheromone trail to redirect their deployment location.

I expect this is meant to synergize with gsc and endless swarm.

Third even if you could use pheromone trail to place a unit in reserves you have to fit it entirely within 6" of a single lictor. Good fething luck.

Jormunghard and kraken should be 1. and 2. place. Krakens threath range on genestealers is impressive. It also works with all assault weapons. The relic is very good. Jormunghard opens up to bringing in a whole flank anywhere you want. Ravaners allow a really big footstepp. You can bring characters, auraes, synergies etc. It is very powerfull. And they all have +1 in armour.

Kronos should be 3rd place, and also the best one for allies. A kronos warlord with the trait and under 9 wounds means you have the only hard counter to psykers in the game. It also works well with spore mines to counter spells. The strangelthorn cannon relic is good vs demons.

Hydra and behemot should be 4th and 5th. Reroll is good. Either to hit with hordes or with charge. Hydras warlord trait and artefact is good. Behemot has good deep strike charges,

Leviathan is not that impressive. It is very passive, and it is hard to get rewarded with good plays with a passive abilaty. In a 2000 army you have about 333 more points of wounds. It is good on a flyrant. It is good on hiveguards. The warlordtrait is good with 4++.

Gorgon just is not that impressive. There is one exception. Their warlord trait is very very good. Especially at smaller games. For 1000 points Gorgon would rock.

I am syaing this a a leviathan player. ^_^

I am thinking ranking them is a bad thing. I would rather divide them into tiers. Kraken, Jhormunggard are tier 1. Kronos hydra and behemot are tier 2. Kronos is tier 1 as an ally. Leviathan is tier 3. Gorgon is tier 4, perhaps 3. (It depends on how bad leviathan is.)

Shouldn't be weighting the trait at the same level as the other items. Much larger percentage of why a fleet is good is due to the trait and how it works within a list, then the stratagems. Relics and warlord trait is a factor but not to the same degree. I mean its the only reason you have Hydra ranked second when it is arguably the worst and most situational hive fleet (especially for matched play).

Overall though ranking is a bit subjective and rather than ranking should be looking at what sort of builds take best advantage of the hive fleets. Because that is really what is important imo.

 winterman wrote:
Shouldn't be weighting the trait at the same level as the other items. Much larger percentage of why a fleet is good is due to the trait and how it works within a list, then the stratagems. Relics and warlord trait is a factor but not to the same degree. I mean its the only reason you have Hydra ranked second when it is arguably the worst and most situational hive fleet (especially for matched play).

Overall though ranking is a bit subjective and rather than ranking should be looking at what sort of builds take best advantage of the hive fleets. Because that is really what is important imo.

How on earth are hydra the worst hive fleet? We did use to get ouer units into combat long before kraken showed up, or the behemot charge. You know what we did not have? Tons and tons or re-rolls. Re-rolls is the next best thing to having actually more attacks. High elf swordmasters in fantasy had re-rolls, and we all remember how insane that was. Gulliman hands out re-rolls and that is very good. Now the best melee unit in the game has it as well. The genestealer has 4 attacks when you are many enough. Asuming at least one attack misses that is the equivelant of throwing 5 attack dices, even more if many of them misses. A genstealer is 12 points. It has rending. They will destroy anything they cole over exept ork boys. Do not disrespect hydra.

 Lance845 wrote:
You have jormungandrs stuff wrong.

First, you spend the cp pre game in deployment. Its not a phase so you can use the stratagem multiple times. You dont need to combine it with pheromone trail to get 2 units deepstriking that normally couldnt.

Good catch.

Second pheromone trail doesnt let you deepstrike a unit that isnt deployed into reserves already anyway. So you need some other method to put the hormagaunts, termagants, whatever into reserve first, THEN use pheromone trail to redirect their deployment location.

I expect this is meant to synergize with gsc and endless swarm.

Perhaps, I am not looing at any GSC stuff when I wrote this. pure nids all the way.

Third even if you could use pheromone trail to place a unit in reserves you have to fit it entirely within 6" of a single lictor. Good fething luck.

It is possible to get 20x genestealers in a 6" bubble around a lictor, i havn't tried 30x gaunts yet.

My verbage may be off, i will correct it. Either way, my point is, why should I spend CP to deepstrike a unit when we can already do it for free with the Trygons. I know the lictor cost a point, but i like this guy because he is cheap, and you can get that point back if you DS near characters and bring in 20x genestealers to hunt characters and try and get the pheremone trail. Another choice is to use the lictor to DS a Broodlord (he fits easily enough) and then use a trygon to taxi genestealers. Genestealers are "lurking" in thier nodes. Moving on, bring all 4 units up on one flank. I did this this past weekend and directed it all towards enemy characters. All of those models (except Trygon) can activate the feeder tendrils so you don't have to worry abuot who kills what.

I just think we already have enought ways to DS, getting another way that cost CP is a waste. If we could take MC that would be a whole different story.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:

I am thinking ranking them is a bad thing. I would rather divide them into tiers. Kraken, Jhormunggard are tier 1. Kronos hydra and behemot are tier 2. Kronos is tier 1 as an ally. Leviathan is tier 3. Gorgon is tier 4, perhaps 3. (It depends on how bad leviathan is.)

The tiers is a good idea. Might have to rework that after we get some more discussion. I would swap gorgon and jormungandr: kraken and hyrda, kronos and levithain, behemoth and gorgon, then Jormugandr. (I will admit I do not play shooty nid list much, i put some in, but don't think nids are a gunline army. This might biased my placement of them so low. Having to advance and charge is so key, i just don't see getting the cover save that much, and when we do, the AP just blows through it anyway. Perhaps if I did an army of Genestealers with Chittin and then take this and just walk them up the board that could be cool. You basically have Marines with a 5++ invul, but you are moving slow. Swarmlord or metabolic overdrive could help them close quick. Put catalyst on them and they are gonna be tough. Again, not saying its not horrible, its just as an overall its too situational and IMO not how nids are meant to be played if you want to Maximize are strengths and minimize our weakness.

All that being said, I've only played 4 of the Hive Fleets so far, so my info is a little biased (behemoth, kraken, leviathin, kronos). That being said, if you take warriors and spread them out to get wide synapse and intersperse them with your little bugs you should have no probelm getting the FnP. 1/6 more points may not sound like a lot, but it can add up, espeically when you are running hordes. This is like the Bretonnians of old where you pray and get an army wide 5+, not quite as good but you get the idea. There is so much synapse coverage, and with the 12" boost, 18" on HT unless I am DS with a unit without a Trygon Prime, everything is pretty much gonna have this FnP.

I am also a little partial to leviathian, I went with the leviathan carapace and kraken skin color for my fleet. : D

Dont agree at all, it depends on your list, Nids Fleets are completely viable as a melee, shooting or a hybrid list, good players will pick good units and the fleet that best fits their play style, i like Jormungandr. I also like Behemoth.

Ive won both my Codex games so far as Jormungandr.

Wound rerolls are more valuable than hit? That's... interesting math you got going on there.

Well, he does have a point there. Rending claws trigger on the to wound roll, so being able to reroll that gives you a bigger bonus than rerolling hits. I think...

Very small difference for rending claws or toxin spikes. But mathematically, it's incorrect to think reroll 1 matters more for wounds than hit. What matters is the chance of success, rerolling a 2+ is better than rerolling a 4+.

xmbk wrote:
Very small difference for rending claws or toxin spikes. But mathematically, it's incorrect to think reroll 1 matters more for wounds than hit. What matters is the chance of success, rerolling a 2+ is better than rerolling a 4+.

Umm what? It completely depends on the situation, if you are -1 to hit and you are a 2+ to hit, but you are 3+ to wound, and you could pick to re-roll wounds or hits, re-rolling the wounds is better b.c a 2 on the hit can not be re-rolled.

Personally

I think they're all very close, and a strong list probably has two.

Jormungandr/Kronos/Kraken.

Behemoth
Leviathan
Hydra/Gorgon

@dynas

A trygon can only bring a single unit of troops.

Jorm stratagem can bring an infantry.

Trygon = warriors, gaunts, gants, stealers.

Jorm = trygons list + pyrovores, hive/tyrant guard, neurothropes, primes, zoanthropes, venomthropes, etc etc...

Plus a unit of 3 raveners costs less than a trygon while providing a larger foot print for placing the units.

There are LOTS of reasons to want jorm over other delivery methods.

xmbk wrote:
Wound rerolls are more valuable than hit? That's... interesting math you got going on there.

This is technically true, an hit reroll is worth less than a wound reroll since a failed hit roll rerolled into a success has a higher chance of doing nothing compared to a succesfull wound roll. The same stands also for damage vs wound.
That said, this is only true when you are evaluating absolute numbers of rerolls, like the CP reroll which generates always one reroll. When evaluating a relative number of rerolls (reroll 1's for example) the fact that hit rerolls are worth less than wound rerolls is offset by the fact that for the same reason you will always have more hit rolls than wound rolls. If you math this out you will easily discover that both bonuses are exactly equivalent for all values of wound and hit (and in the case of rerolling 1's, also for all combinations of bonuses and penalties).

 Amishprn86 wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Very small difference for rending claws or toxin spikes. But mathematically, it's incorrect to think reroll 1 matters more for wounds than hit. What matters is the chance of success, rerolling a 2+ is better than rerolling a 4+.

Umm what? It completely depends on the situation, if you are -1 to hit and you are a 2+ to hit, but you are 3+ to wound, and you could pick to re-roll wounds or hits, re-rolling the wounds is better b.c a 2 on the hit can not be re-rolled.

Not sure what you are saying here. The important thing to remember is that all other things being equal, a hit reroll is identical to a wound reroll. Certain situations change that, in either direction. But valuing one over the other is mathematically incorrect. Even given something like RC, it's a minor difference. Rerolling hits gives you more opportunities to roll rending, just as rerolling wounds does. Literally a 1 in 36 difference for 2+ to hit, 1 in 18 for a 3+. Unless you are talking MRC, in which case hit rerolls are obviously better.

Spoletta wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Wound rerolls are more valuable than hit? That's... interesting math you got going on there.

This is technically true, an hit reroll is worth less than a wound reroll since a failed hit roll rerolled into a success has a higher chance of doing nothing compared to a succesfull wound roll. The same stands also for damage vs wound.
That said, this is only true when you are evaluating absolute numbers of rerolls, like the CP reroll which generates always one reroll. When evaluating a relative number of rerolls (reroll 1's for example) the fact that hit rerolls are worth less than wound rerolls is offset by the fact that for the same reason you will always have more hit rolls than wound rolls. If you math this out you will easily discover that both bonuses are exactly equivalent for all values of wound and hit (and in the case of rerolling 1's, also for all combinations of bonuses and penalties).

This.

I am not looking at a pure statistical probably. The dice stats will very depending on modifiers, str, toughness, WS, BS, etc....
My point is, the wound rerolls are further along in the progression to cause damage to the enemy.

If I fail a to hit roll, spend a CP to reroll it and pass. I still have to make a wound roll, which I could fail, and thus have wasted the CP. If it passes, the enemy will still get the AS after that.
If I spend a CP on a wound roll, I have passed my hit roll, so there is one less dice roll to worry about. Just the AS.

Another way to look at it in an extreme example.

If you fire a Lascannon at a Gaunt, (thus we know no AS), and fail the to hit roll, then you spend a CP, there is still a chance you could roll a 1 on the following to wound roll. If however, you saved that CP for the wound roll, you are more likely to guarentee the damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
@dynas

A trygon can only bring a single unit of troops.

Jorm stratagem can bring an infantry.

Trygon = warriors, gaunts, gants, stealers.

Jorm = trygons list + pyrovores, hive/tyrant guard, neurothropes, primes, zoanthropes, venomthropes, etc etc...

Plus a unit of 3 raveners costs less than a trygon while providing a larger foot print for placing the units.

There are LOTS of reasons to want jorm over other delivery methods.

I am not saying there are not situations or reason, I am just saying we already have A LOT of DS delivery methods and with the value of CP, I don't see that it is necessary to burn a CP to DS a unit, even if does unlock extra unit types not normally available. Besides, the DS is only going to be in effect for 1 turn. You really want to use your entire HFA just for the benefit of DS a few extra units when we already have so many great DS options.

Vastly disagree with this ranking.

You talk about dice as the currency, and how efficient you can be with them.

So I question, have you actually tried each one out? The combos each one has? I personally have not tried them all out, but I have done Jorm with Trygon or Raveners with 30 Devilgaunts. Lots of cheap currency there

That's 90 dice as a alpha strike. Then for 2 CP you can do it again. Its not going to kill any land raiders, but ive murdered many light tanks and dreads with just that. It completely removes any infantry squads. For the cost of 240pts for the gaunts and what 68 raveners?

Im sorry, but to think this edition is anything but a shooting mans game is being ignorant or naïve. The idea of being able to move around is great, but it means nothing if your models are all dead turn 1 cause you are shot off the board. Jorm counters this in addition to taking a Malathrope.

Shooting phase is the sexy phase, but also the phase where you can win and dictate the board based on what you pick and destroy.

I fully expect there to be mixed fleets in Grand Tourneys, and know that Jorm will be in a good many lists.

I appericate the write up, but in my games thus far I feel your way off the mark

 Dynas wrote:


I am not saying there are not situations or reason, I am just saying we already have A LOT of DS delivery methods and with the value of CP, I don't see that it is necessary to burn a CP to DS a unit, even if does unlock extra unit types not normally available. Besides, the DS is only going to be in effect for 1 turn. You really want to use your entire HFA just for the benefit of DS a few extra units when we already have so many great DS options.

How on earth do we have good delivery options outside of Jorn? The spore is very exspensive. Bring only 1 unit. Does not do a lot once it lands. Both trygons are very exspensive and are restricted to 1 troop unit. Lictors can deliver genstealer, but that is it.

3 ravaners are quite good, cost under 75 points, you can go up to 4 if you really need a big footprint. It cost stil under 4. And you can sett up a lot of units. The oponent can not deploy in a way that you have no good place to deploy 4 or 5 units in a place where he is thin. The only other option for him is to depkoy in a corner. Good luck grabing objectives then. Devilgaunts is one of our best glass cannons, deliver them saftly is very good. And they have a 5+ save now.

 Dynas wrote:


I am not looking at a pure statistical probably. The dice stats will very depending on modifiers, str, toughness, WS, BS, etc....
My point is, the wound rerolls are further along in the progression to cause damage to the enemy.

If I fail a to hit roll, spend a CP to reroll it and pass. I still have to make a wound roll, which I could fail, and thus have wasted the CP. If it passes, the enemy will still get the AS after that.
If I spend a CP on a wound roll, I have passed my hit roll, so there is one less dice roll to worry about. Just the AS.

Another way to look at it in an extreme example.

If you fire a Lascannon at a Gaunt, (thus we know no AS), and fail the to hit roll, then you spend a CP, there is still a chance you could roll a 1 on the following to wound roll. If however, you saved that CP for the wound roll, you are more likely to guarentee the damage.

This is a bit of witchcraft. Wound rolls don't happen in a vacuum. The rules generally require a hit roll first. Mathematics explains probabilities quite nicely, no need to go inventing new ways to evaluate dice rolls.

In your example above, if you save the CP you never get a chance to roll to wound. You are taking something that is very straightforward and making it difficult. If probabilities are hard, that's fine. But instead of turning to voodoo, I recommend trusting a mathematician.

Spoletta wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Wound rerolls are more valuable than hit? That's... interesting math you got going on there.

This is technically true, an hit reroll is worth less than a wound reroll since a failed hit roll rerolled into a success has a higher chance of doing nothing compared to a succesfull wound roll. The same stands also for damage vs wound.
That said, this is only true when you are evaluating absolute numbers of rerolls, like the CP reroll which generates always one reroll. When evaluating a relative number of rerolls (reroll 1's for example) the fact that hit rerolls are worth less than wound rerolls is offset by the fact that for the same reason you will always have more hit rolls than wound rolls. If you math this out you will easily discover that both bonuses are exactly equivalent for all values of wound and hit (and in the case of rerolling 1's, also for all combinations of bonuses and penalties).

I think it depends on whether we are talking about a static ability to re-roll or a resource based re-roll (like CP).

In the first case a to hit re-roll is better to have than a to wound re-roll simply because mathematically they are the same, however if you don't hit you never get to use the wound re-roll in the first place, whereas you will always be able to use your to hit re-roll.

For a resource based re-roll if possible you always want to use it on the last possible step in the chain so that the resource has a lower chance of being wasted. If you use a CP to re-roll a hit you still have a chance to fail to wound after that hit roll is made, and if you fail to wound that CP was essentially wasted. So there are 2 instances where the CP goes to waste: you still fail your hit roll on the re-roll and you fail your wound roll. Vs only 1 failure condition for a wound re-roll (failing to wound on the re-roll).

Suppose you have a re-roll to use. If you are BS 4+ and are wounding your target on a 4+, your chance of failing to wound is 75%, so if you fail your hit roll you have a 75% chance of your CP going to waste when you use that re-roll (50% chance to miss, 50% chance to fail to wound). If you have already hit, and fail to wound, your CP only has a 50% chance of going to waste.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
that said for spending CP it depends on how important your success is. You may need the extra hit to get the job done.

Reroll value is also based on chance of success.

Needing 4+, 4+

100 dice, 50 hit, 50

Reroll hit

100 dice, 75 hit, 37.5 wound

Reroll wound

100 dice, 50 hit, 37.5 wound

Equal.

3+ to hit, 5+ to wound

100 dice, 66.6 hit, 22.2 wound

reroll to hit

100 dice, 88.8 hit, 29.3 wound

Reroll to wound

100 dice, 66.6 hit, 37 wound


5+ to hit, 3+ to wound.

100 dice, 33 hit, 22 wound

Reroll hit

100 dice, 55 hit, 36.3 wound

Reroll wound

100 dice, 33 hit, 25 wound


In short, when hit and wound rolls are uneven, you want rerolls on the worse odds side. If they're even, it doesnt matter which side.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Reroll value is also based on chance of success.

Needing 4+, 4+

100 dice, 50 hit, 50

Reroll hit

100 dice, 75 hit, 37.5 wound

Reroll wound

100 dice, 50 hit, 37.5 wound

Equal.

3+ to hit, 5+ to wound

100 dice, 66.6 hit, 22.2 wound

reroll to hit

100 dice, 88.8 hit, 29.3 wound

Reroll to wound

100 dice, 66.6 hit, 37 wound


5+ to hit, 3+ to wound.

100 dice, 33 hit, 22 wound

Reroll hit

100 dice, 55 hit, 36.3 wound

Reroll wound

100 dice, 33 hit, 25 wound


In short, when hit and wound rolls are uneven, you want rerolls on the worse odds side. If they're even, it doesnt matter which side.

that is somewhat true if they are different, if they are the same I would still take to hit over to wound. It also matters most when there is a difference of at least 2, if it is 4+ to hit 5+ to wound they come out about the same. It is also only true if we are talking full re-roll and not re-roll 1s.

The math on the rerolls is tricky for sure, there are a lot of factors, modifiers, AP values, AS, Powers, etc... Unless you are rerolling the number of hits you get, for example on a D6 weapon you roll a 1 for you hits, its almost always better to reroll the wounds.

As bring77, he has it on the nose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

str00dles1 wrote:
Vastly disagree with this ranking.

You talk about dice as the currency, and how efficient you can be with them.

So I question, have you actually tried each one out? The combos each one has? I personally have not tried them all out, but I have done Jorm with Trygon or Raveners with 30 Devilgaunts. Lots of cheap currency there

No i have not. I say that in the writeup. I have yet to play all the hive fleets or combos, the codex has been out 2 weeks.

That's 90 dice as a alpha strike. Then for 2 CP you can do it again. Its not going to kill any land raiders, but ive murdered many light tanks and dreads with just that. It completely removes any infantry squads. For the cost of 240pts for the gaunts and what 68 raveners?

You can do this with a Trygon, as well. Yes the raveners are cheaper, but the Trygon has MC potential to take do some Anti tank, where the raveners don't. Also, the Trygon is likely to draw a lot more fire and soak up a turn of shooting to ensure you gaunts get to shoot again, the raverners will get shredded. if your argument is they are cheaper, just take a lictor for 45 points and use the pheremone trail.

Im sorry, but to think this edition is anything but a shooting mans game is being ignorant or naïve. The idea of being able to move around is great, but it means nothing if your models are all dead turn 1 cause you are shot off the board. Jorm counters this in addition to taking a Malathrope.

yes for other armies it certainly is. For Tyranids, and maybe orks its a different mans game. Anything that isn't in power armor is meant to die in droves to gunfire. The best way to avoid getting shot is to get into combat and lock in fast.
This is why I rank kraken so highily, because it IS fast enough to get turn 1 charges.

Shooting phase is the sexy phase, but also the phase where you can win and dictate the board based on what you pick and destroy.

I know its the sexy phase, I specifically state this is a common misconception, and the reasons why. Shooting is the offense that gets the glory, but movement is like defense, it wins the game. Movement and placement, the ability to dictate charges, lock in units, board control, that is what wins games. If I move into your screen and lock your army in turn 1 there isn't much you can do about it, if done right, they cant fall back either.

I fully expect there to be mixed fleets in Grand Tourneys, and know that Jorm will be in a good many lists.

I appericate the write up, but in my games thus far I feel your way off the mark

Time will tell, I am not entirely sold in the mixed hive fleets yet, will have to give it a go. if i did, it would probably be kraken with a very small Kronos detachment to shutdown enemy pyskers, mainly smite spam.

You cant DS 30man gants with Trygons tho, there are manyt hings you can not do, just b.c there is a different option doesnt mean its the right option.

If you wanted to DS 30 Devil gants as your man AI, you can not do that outside of Jormungandr, or 30 Hgants.

I've played around with the idea of 30 Hgants and Ravagers DSing, the idea is if they only get shot at for 1 turn, thats better than moving them up for 2 turns.

If i play against someone that i can move them up then i dont need to spend the CP, this is on example as to what others mean by Jormungandr has better universal options.

Also, I don't know if this has been noted, a Trygon can bring a single unit with it. The Jorm stratagem can bring as many units as will fit with a single taxi. If you wanted to Deep strike 2 9 man units of warriors and a prime you only need 1 unit of raveners with enough models that you can stretch them out in a line long enough to fit all 3 units within 6"

 Lance845 wrote:
Also, I don't know if this has been noted, a Trygon can bring a single unit with it. The Jorm stratagem can bring as many units as will fit with a single taxi. If you wanted to Deep strike 2 9 man units of warriors and a prime you only need 1 unit of raveners with enough models that you can stretch them out in a line long enough to fit all 3 units within 6"

Right b.c its before 1st turn so there is no limit on how many times you can use it.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Also, I don't know if this has been noted, a Trygon can bring a single unit with it. The Jorm stratagem can bring as many units as will fit with a single taxi. If you wanted to Deep strike 2 9 man units of warriors and a prime you only need 1 unit of raveners with enough models that you can stretch them out in a line long enough to fit all 3 units within 6"

Right b.c its before 1st turn so there is no limit on how many times you can use it.

Not just that, all of our deep srike methods allow you to deepstrike 1 unit for 1 taxi. 1 trygon can bring 1 unit of troops. 1 Tyrannocyte can bring 1 unit of 20 models or 1 monster.

With jorm 1 unit of raveners can bring as many units as you can fit around it. You do not need 1 tunneler for every unit you want to deep strike. You just need 1 tunneler with a large enough foot print to fit what you want to deepstrike.

Just to be clear, Breng is not right. Trace was 100% correct, not "somewhat true". And preferring one over the other when they are exactly the same is flat out silly.

Thinking like this just helps my win %.

You could add a poll to this thread to help us see which hive fleet people think is strongest after reading your review? It'd be more helpful than one guys opinion, (even if it is a well thought out one!)

 DoomMouse wrote:
You could add a poll to this thread to help us see which hive fleet people think is strongest after reading your review? It'd be more helpful than one guys opinion, (even if it is a well thought out one!)

Great idea! Polk added.