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Made in ca
Lurking Gaunt




The Balor System

Sorry this question has probably been answered like a million times but I’m just getting back into 40k lol. If an ap values makes the armour save worse than 6+ do you still get a save or does it ignore armour. For example if a ap-5 weapon wounded a model with a 5+ armour save would it completely ignore the armour??? Thanks guys

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Made in de
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Germany

If the AP makes it impossible to roll the result on a D6 then it ignores armor.
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





p5freak wrote:
If the AP makes it impossible to roll the result on a D6 then it ignores armor.
Technically incorrect. You have an armour save, it's just an armour save you might not be able to make on a D6. Positive modifiers might cancel out negative ones.

Example: You have a 5+ save, and are hit with an AP-2 weapon. Normally you'd need to roll a 5+ on a D6-2, which would normally give a result range of 1-4 (since anything less than 1 counts as 1), which means you can't possibly pass the save.

However if you were in cover, giving you a +1, you'd have to pass a 5+ on a D6-2+1, which gives a result range of 1-5, so it's possible to pass.

There is an important lesson here that even the best of us forget, the modifiers alter the DICE ROLL, not the characteristic. A model with a 5+ armour save that is hit with a AP-1 weapon still has to make a 5+ save, not a 6+ save, it's the dice that is changed from a D6 to a D6-1

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/25 13:06:44


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; Genestealer Cults can no longer move after ambushing; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; single use weapons MUST be fired the first time a model shoots if they are in range and LOS, if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; the Agents of Vect stratagem can be used by ANY Drukhari army, not just one with a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; and Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
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McCragge

He was correct... he just did not go into as much detail.

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Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





 Primark G wrote:
He was correct... he just did not go into as much detail.
"Ignores armour" and "Makes it difficult to pass an armour save" are not even remotely the same. One suggests that it cannot be mitigated in any way and the other is correct.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; Genestealer Cults can no longer move after ambushing; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; single use weapons MUST be fired the first time a model shoots if they are in range and LOS, if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; the Agents of Vect stratagem can be used by ANY Drukhari army, not just one with a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; and Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot





 BaconCatBug wrote:
Technically incorrect. You have an armour save, it's just an armour save you might not be able to make on a D6. Positive modifiers might cancel out negative ones.

Well, technically its called the "save" characteristic, not armor save. Armor save cannot be modified but Save characteristics can be.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Primark G wrote:
He was correct... he just did not go into as much detail.
"Ignores armour" and "Makes it difficult to pass an armour save" are not even remotely the same. One suggests that it cannot be mitigated in any way and the other is correct.
what about “ignores armour saves” and “makes it impossible to make an armour save”? Are those remotely the same?
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





Bremon wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Primark G wrote:
He was correct... he just did not go into as much detail.
"Ignores armour" and "Makes it difficult to pass an armour save" are not even remotely the same. One suggests that it cannot be mitigated in any way and the other is correct.
what about “ignores armour saves” and “makes it impossible to make an armour save”? Are those remotely the same?
They are subtly different, as explained before.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; Genestealer Cults can no longer move after ambushing; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; single use weapons MUST be fired the first time a model shoots if they are in range and LOS, if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; the Agents of Vect stratagem can be used by ANY Drukhari army, not just one with a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; and Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




You'll notice Pox Walkers have a 7+ save on their datasheet.

They have a save that is normally (outside of cover etc) impossible to make, which is different to not having an armour save.

Hope that helps clear up the difference.
   
 
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