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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Hey all,

Proposing three small changes that I think will help make more lists viable. It involves the Take Cover stratagem available to the Astra Militarum.

1) Take Cover stratagem can no longer be used by Lords of War or Flyer units. They're too big or supremely confident or airborne to hide behind cover. Non-Flyer units with the Fly keyword can still utilize the stratagem.
2) Take Cover stratagem does not affect invulnerable saves.
3) Take Cover stratagem is now available to all armies (like rerolls, interrupt combat or auto-pass morale).

This will help counter:
1) Alpha strike lists by giving everyone a defensive stratagem they can use to help keep something critical alive turn 1.
2) Pure shooting armies since melee armies are more likely to survive to get into combat and melee attacks are not affected by the stratagem
3) MSU since the stratagem is better used on a large unit than a small one

Open to feedback!
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






Stratagems are not a patch to fix first turn advantage. Stratagems and command points should be a tactical choice. If it's a no brainer, your an idiot if you dont use it, so good it's a must use, stratgem then it's no longer really a choice.

Every time people suggest stratgems to fix basic flaws in the core mechanics of the game they fail to see this. You are not fixing the problem, your suggesting a band aid that means everyone will always be out x CP because Y effect is too good to pass up.

   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator




In My Lab

Plus, you know, Daemons gain pretty much no advantage from this. So the first turn advantage is still there against them.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Lance845 wrote:
Stratagems are not a patch to fix first turn advantage. Stratagems and command points should be a tactical choice. If it's a no brainer, your an idiot if you dont use it, so good it's a must use, stratgem then it's no longer really a choice.

Every time people suggest stratgems to fix basic flaws in the core mechanics of the game they fail to see this. You are not fixing the problem, your suggesting a band aid that means everyone will always be out x CP because Y effect is too good to pass up.


I agree it doesn't mitigate all the advantages of going first with an Alpha Strike list. But it wasn't intended as a fix-all, more of a tweek in the right direction since it's a relatively simple change with a low cost to implement. I agree it's a band aid but disagree about how tactical it would be to use. There are plenty of situations where it wouldn't be optimal to use it but I think it also opens up some strategies where it would be helpful.
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






Krezzlar wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Stratagems are not a patch to fix first turn advantage. Stratagems and command points should be a tactical choice. If it's a no brainer, your an idiot if you dont use it, so good it's a must use, stratgem then it's no longer really a choice.

Every time people suggest stratgems to fix basic flaws in the core mechanics of the game they fail to see this. You are not fixing the problem, your suggesting a band aid that means everyone will always be out x CP because Y effect is too good to pass up.


I agree it doesn't mitigate all the advantages of going first with an Alpha Strike list. But it wasn't intended as a fix-all, more of a tweek in the right direction since it's a relatively simple change with a low cost to implement. I agree it's a band aid but disagree about how tactical it would be to use. There are plenty of situations where it wouldn't be optimal to use it but I think it also opens up some strategies where it would be helpful.


You misread my criticism. I KNOW it doesn't fix all the problems with first turn advantage and alpha strikes. My criticism is that stratagems are the wrong way to go. The very moment you said "I have an idea to help, it's a stratagem", you already proposed a failing idea. Ever since stratagems were introduced there has been a cascade of "What if we made x stratagem to help in y situation" and they are ALL bad because they are all trying to patch inherent powerful, exploit level flaws in the mechanics with a mitigating element. The value of the stratagem is now 1 of 2 things. Good enough that it's an always use (Not necessarily because the stratagem is crazy powerful but because it mitigates something else that IS crazy powerful) or useless and will never be used (because it's not good enough to make any actual difference so might as well just save the CP).

I don't even know the exact details of the Take Cover Stratagem. It doesn't actually matter. There is exactly 0 chance that any given army is going to have anything but 1 of those 2 reactions. Look at the nid stratagem list. Read the Nid tactica. Besides... 2(?) stratagems we are all trying to figure out when it's best to use what stratagems and where and omg... they are all so good I don't have enough CP. Thats good game design. That means every stratagem is an interesting choice because it provides benefits but also cuts off options and I really don't know which is best when.

This though.... it's either nothing and never going to be used (Tzneetch Deamons) or will be used always forever (most of the other armys). Thats not interesting. Thats not good game design. It's a bad idea. Using Stratagems to even nudge things in the right direction to address core mechanic issues is a bad idea.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/03 21:00:54


   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




As per FAQ, it only now affects AM Infantry units, so your first point is irrelevent. Flyers, Lords of War, and Vehicles [Even rough riders!] can't take cover even if they're AM.
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






Stratagems shouldnt be fixing anything. They are tools in your tool box to supplement what your army already has.

The moment you think problem: solution = stratagem your building that stratagem to do something stratagems shouldnt be doing.

   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

Krezzlar wrote:
Hey all,

Proposing three small changes that I think will help make more lists viable. It involves the Take Cover stratagem available to the Astra Militarum.

1) Take Cover stratagem can no longer be used by Lords of War or Flyer units. They're too big or supremely confident or airborne to hide behind cover. Non-Flyer units with the Fly keyword can still utilize the stratagem.
2) Take Cover stratagem does not affect invulnerable saves.
3) Take Cover stratagem is now available to all armies (like rerolls, interrupt combat or auto-pass morale).

This will help counter:
1) Alpha strike lists by giving everyone a defensive stratagem they can use to help keep something critical alive turn 1.
2) Pure shooting armies since melee armies are more likely to survive to get into combat and melee attacks are not affected by the stratagem
3) MSU since the stratagem is better used on a large unit than a small one

Open to feedback!


Slows the game down, which is contrary to the zeitgeist I'm picking up among players.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob





Denver, Colorado

Limit it to infantry units, make it game wide, that would be fair in my book. Kind of like going to ground last edition.

But at least, tanks/vehicles shouldn't be able to use it. That's a little silly.

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.". Words to live by, especially for ork players waiting for a new codex.  
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




AdmiralHalsey wrote:
As per FAQ, it only now affects AM Infantry units, so your first point is irrelevent. Flyers, Lords of War, and Vehicles [Even rough riders!] can't take cover even if they're AM.


Didn't realize that, thanks for letting me know. A change in the right direction I think.
   
Made in se
Waaagh! Warbiker




Sweden

Do you remember the "go to ground rule"? I liked that. You could let squads dive for cover, but then they could not move and shot worse next turn. That was a tactical decision, not just spending a "command point".

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





I'll do you one better: replace Insane Bravery with Take Cover.
   
Made in us
Guarding Guardian





Iwakuni, Japan

Personally, I think this is a great idea and intend to use it to tone down 1st turn advantage in my local meta. Stratagems are a really simple and easy way to mitigate some exploits in the game, a bit more graceful then a totally new rule or an faq. I could definitely see GW expanding the universal stratagems in the next Chapter Approved.

"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you." 
   
 
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