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I love going through the books and seeing lore that just couldn’t happen based on the rules of the game. The biggest examples I remember are from the Ork lore.

Wazzdakka Gutsmek is known for having killed a Titan, but Rules wise(back when he did have them) he was not nearly as powerful as a Titan.

Similarly Grukk Faceripper was able to wreck a Knight and eat its pilot. On the table in 7th Grukk would have been stomped to death in a second.

What inconsistencies have you seen between the lore and the game?

Space Marines.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Space Marines.

Necrons and daemons too, if they played like the lore, no one would want to play against them

Surely with enough dice magic those could actually happen though?

The part in Dead Men Walking where the soldiers are instructed to throw their melta guns away just before they are hit, so that that the guns are not disintegrated with them comes to mind!

Tyranids - seriously you'd need thousands upon thousands of models just for a small skirmish to say nothing of what you'd need for an actual army.

Marines on the other hand would be dead boring cause chances are for the skirmish style games we play you'd have one marine. Just one. They are supposed tobe one man armies and so against most enemies would slaughter them in droves.

That and most heroes and titan and even tanks should be far more powerful than they are.

Skirmish games are always like this; because the unit count is so low the most powerful units get toned down and the weaker toned up so that they are able to work on the tabletop. I'd wager only games like Epic might be able to get closer to the Lore side of the gameplay because youat least have a larger count of models on the table and a better ability to represent them more faithfully. Even then though its not ideal and I'd say the best way would be a computer game.
Warhammer TW is probably capable of getting closer to the lore in battle terms than even Warmaster was.

Bad question, as the Lore is inconsistent and unclear on several points.

E.g. the relative strength of Space Marines vs. others: in many Space Marine novels, they're ridiculously OP, while in many Guard novels, they're not. There's very rarely a middle ground.

Yeah, if you stick to the IG books,, the TT isn't that bad, you have competent Guardsmen and extremely dangerous, but killable Marines.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yeah, if you stick to the IG books,, the TT isn't that bad, you have competent Guardsmen and extremely dangerous, but killable Marines.

I am reminded of First and Only where a guardsman fairly casually blows the head off of an Iron Warrior space marine, then apologizes to Gaunt for having the audacity to turn up his lasgun power to its normal levels after being told to turn it down to save battery power.

Orks on the whole. There should be thousands of Boyz with 20 support characters then a huge warboss. But alas.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Bad question, as the Lore is inconsistent and unclear on several points.

E.g. the relative strength of Space Marines vs. others: in many Space Marine novels, they're ridiculously OP, while in many Guard novels, they're not. There's very rarely a middle ground.

I usually just chalk it up to hearsay, propaganda, and artistic license.

For example, if we look at the Bible, the battles number in the hundreds of thousands despite that not being physically possible for the time period. Then, during the Greco-Persian wars, it was claimed that Xerxes had a million man army when in reality it was more like 100,000. All in all, historical accounts like to embellish their stories to sound more exciting. It's the equivalent of saying "there's like a bajillion of them!".

I presume the same could be said about 40k accounts because they can't all be true at the same time.

 Formosa wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Space Marines.

Necrons and daemons too, if they played like the lore, no one would want to play against them

Literally non of the armies are fully or properly represented on table (in matched play)

..... except maybe eldars and tau.

otherwise nids should be brining 3-5 times more points
So would orks
so would normal guard
Eldar would avoid fighting
Tau would of shot you from orbit before knocking on your door about the greater good
daemons wouldnt exist in most places besides the giant space vagina and some choice chaos tainted relics/planets

and all of that is subject to change based on the lore writer.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yeah, if you stick to the IG books,, the TT isn't that bad, you have competent Guardsmen and extremely dangerous, but killable Marines.

I am reminded of First and Only where a guardsman fairly casually blows the head off of an Iron Warrior space marine, then apologizes to Gaunt for having the audacity to turn up his lasgun power to its normal levels after being told to turn it down to save battery power.

that's pretty bad.

I feel any "Agents of the Imperium" type units get a bad representation.

Assassins shouldn't be operating on the battlefield like they do on the table top, except maybe for the Eversor.

- Culexus its too large an area

- Vindicare its too small an area, and he takes far to many shots to kill his targets

- Callidus wouldn't operate on a battlefield, I picture them again in a smaller, less hectic environment.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yeah, if you stick to the IG books,, the TT isn't that bad, you have competent Guardsmen and extremely dangerous, but killable Marines.

I am reminded of First and Only where a guardsman fairly casually blows the head off of an Iron Warrior space marine, then apologizes to Gaunt for having the audacity to turn up his lasgun power to its normal levels after being told to turn it down to save battery power.

that's pretty bad.

Yeah. It's one of the worst showings for Space Marines in the novels, but it's an example of what I am talking about.

If you take the best showings of Space Marines (5 or whatever can take on a planet, e.g. meme-level) and the worst showings of Marines (about as tough as Admech servitors, dying to conventional mortar barrages, strangled to death by a mortal man with a garrote, or some Grey Knights getting overrun and slain by a traditional feudal-world army complete with spears and crossbows), and take the average, I'd say the table-top is a fair representation of them, save perhaps fairly mechanical non-fluff things such as point costs.

It is possible to play a game against Marbo.

If you have Calgar and the Swarmlord fight on the tabletop, the Swarmlord will eat Calgar. But in the lore, Calgar kills at least 2 Swarmlords of 2 different Hive Fleets.

bibotot wrote:
If you have Calgar and the Swarmlord fight on the tabletop, the Swarmlord will eat Calgar. But in the lore, Calgar kills at least 2 Swarmlords of 2 different Hive Fleets.

this is what I refer to as "hero dice" where "likely? not important. the Hero rolled perfectly and the bad guy roleld poorly" back when I ran star wars d20 I'd often remind my players "remember unlike Luke Skywalker you can't roll a 20 on demand"

In regards to some comments about armies not being repsented correctly due to small numbers of bodies on the tabletop as opposed to in the fluff
I always had the mindest that the forces you are controlling are a small part of a much larger battle or series of battles, to me this explains why a chapter master or speical named guy is fighting in a tiny force or why armies like nids or orks have low numbers or space marines are acting alone, in my mind it's more you are focusing on a pivotal part in a huge battle.

Dandelion wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Bad question, as the Lore is inconsistent and unclear on several points.

E.g. the relative strength of Space Marines vs. others: in many Space Marine novels, they're ridiculously OP, while in many Guard novels, they're not. There's very rarely a middle ground.

I usually just chalk it up to hearsay, propaganda, and artistic license.

For example, if we look at the Bible, the battles number in the hundreds of thousands despite that not being physically possible for the time period. Then, during the Greco-Persian wars, it was claimed that Xerxes had a million man army when in reality it was more like 100,000. All in all, historical accounts like to embellish their stories to sound more exciting. It's the equivalent of saying "there's like a bajillion of them!".

I presume the same could be said about 40k accounts because they can't all be true at the same time.

Agreed. This is pretty much what I tell myself. My head fluff states that realistically there are a lot more Marines out there and they are a lot less deadlier then the stories. One Marine being able to take on 3 humans maybe 4 depending on the situation. But nowhere near the whole 1 Marine can take over a planet or destroy a whole company of guardsmen... that’s just stupid, especially with all their weapons which could easily rip apart power armor (plasma, meltas, hot shots, missile launchers, lascannons etc...).

The bible is quite known for having many of its historical facts wrong. I would not site it as an example. (I am not talking about it's supernatural claims, just to avoid derailing this thread.)

The biggest thing I see is how disproportionet the slice of battlefield we play on is to the fluff. Look to gams: 100 games of 100 ultra marines players vs 100 tyranid players. By the time the dust settles the ultramarined should be wiped out. And the units the nids have comitted hardly represents an invasion fleet. The ultra marines only number 1000. While each nid army might present 150 models 15 000 would hardly be enough to take out a whole planet.

I also finf it suspect that the armies are so well balanced point vice.

Also, the scale of most models and all tanks are way off.

usmcmidn wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Bad question, as the Lore is inconsistent and unclear on several points.

E.g. the relative strength of Space Marines vs. others: in many Space Marine novels, they're ridiculously OP, while in many Guard novels, they're not. There's very rarely a middle ground.

I usually just chalk it up to hearsay, propaganda, and artistic license.

For example, if we look at the Bible, the battles number in the hundreds of thousands despite that not being physically possible for the time period. Then, during the Greco-Persian wars, it was claimed that Xerxes had a million man army when in reality it was more like 100,000. All in all, historical accounts like to embellish their stories to sound more exciting. It's the equivalent of saying "there's like a bajillion of them!".

I presume the same could be said about 40k accounts because they can't all be true at the same time.

Agreed. This is pretty much what I tell myself. My head fluff states that realistically there are a lot more Marines out there and they are a lot less deadlier then the stories. One Marine being able to take on 3 humans maybe 4 depending on the situation. But nowhere near the whole 1 Marine can take over a planet or destroy a whole company of guardsmen... that’s just stupid, especially with all their weapons which could easily rip apart power armor (plasma, meltas, hot shots, missile launchers, lascannons etc...).

one thing to consider is how common those weapons are in fluff though, and this gets back to a point I've made in the past about the table top meta vs the in universe meta. On table top Marines are the most common force you'll see, and Plasma is everywhere. In the fiction, Plasma is rare and it's unuseal to see space marines, the most common foes being guardsmen Orks and Tyranids. the most common special weapon is likely the humble flamer, and I bet a lot of renegade guard regiments aren't packing plasma to fight Marines, but are rather kitted to fight guardsmen etc in a trench warfare enviroment. this is what makes Marines so effective in the fluff, they're basicly the anti meta force.

One more thing: the First Founding Chapters are represented way too often, even though they have no more strength than an average chapter, which means they go to as many campaigns.

bibotot wrote:
One more thing: the First Founding Chapters are represented way too often, even though they have no more strength than an average chapter, which means they go to as many campaigns.

But have much cooler stuff.

usmcmidn wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Bad question, as the Lore is inconsistent and unclear on several points.

E.g. the relative strength of Space Marines vs. others: in many Space Marine novels, they're ridiculously OP, while in many Guard novels, they're not. There's very rarely a middle ground.

I usually just chalk it up to hearsay, propaganda, and artistic license.

For example, if we look at the Bible, the battles number in the hundreds of thousands despite that not being physically possible for the time period. Then, during the Greco-Persian wars, it was claimed that Xerxes had a million man army when in reality it was more like 100,000. All in all, historical accounts like to embellish their stories to sound more exciting. It's the equivalent of saying "there's like a bajillion of them!".

I presume the same could be said about 40k accounts because they can't all be true at the same time.

Agreed. This is pretty much what I tell myself. My head fluff states that realistically there are a lot more Marines out there and they are a lot less deadlier then the stories. One Marine being able to take on 3 humans maybe 4 depending on the situation. But nowhere near the whole 1 Marine can take over a planet or destroy a whole company of guardsmen... that’s just stupid, especially with all their weapons which could easily rip apart power armor (plasma, meltas, hot shots, missile launchers, lascannons etc...).

The primarchs: Fulgrim shows how 8 marines can take a planet, everyone just thinks it's going pure attack and taking/holding ground, they are wrong, a space marine represents so much more than just a superhuman in walking tank armour, they can cripple morale, cause extreme confusion and fear, attack nearly anywhere at anytime and retreat just as fast, they are also amazing force multiplyers.

 Formosa wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Bad question, as the Lore is inconsistent and unclear on several points.

E.g. the relative strength of Space Marines vs. others: in many Space Marine novels, they're ridiculously OP, while in many Guard novels, they're not. There's very rarely a middle ground.

I usually just chalk it up to hearsay, propaganda, and artistic license.

For example, if we look at the Bible, the battles number in the hundreds of thousands despite that not being physically possible for the time period. Then, during the Greco-Persian wars, it was claimed that Xerxes had a million man army when in reality it was more like 100,000. All in all, historical accounts like to embellish their stories to sound more exciting. It's the equivalent of saying "there's like a bajillion of them!".

I presume the same could be said about 40k accounts because they can't all be true at the same time.

Agreed. This is pretty much what I tell myself. My head fluff states that realistically there are a lot more Marines out there and they are a lot less deadlier then the stories. One Marine being able to take on 3 humans maybe 4 depending on the situation. But nowhere near the whole 1 Marine can take over a planet or destroy a whole company of guardsmen... that’s just stupid, especially with all their weapons which could easily rip apart power armor (plasma, meltas, hot shots, missile launchers, lascannons etc...).

The primarchs: Fulgrim shows how 8 marines can take a planet, everyone just thinks it's going pure attack and taking/holding ground, they are wrong, a space marine represents so much more than just a superhuman in walking tank armour, they can cripple morale, cause extreme confusion and fear, attack nearly anywhere at anytime and retreat just as fast, they are also amazing force multiplyers.

Right but "sewing confusion and fear" isn't how you conquer territory. It's how you make the enemy surrender, sure, so that you conventional (read: Imperial Guard) forces come in to actually hold the ground. And they're an excellent force multiplier... for the tens of thousands of conventional (read: Imperial Guard) forces that accompany them. The 8 Marines in Fulgrim did not conquer the planet. Lesser troops had to go physically be there to actually conquer it, after the Marines forced a surrender.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Bad question, as the Lore is inconsistent and unclear on several points.

E.g. the relative strength of Space Marines vs. others: in many Space Marine novels, they're ridiculously OP, while in many Guard novels, they're not. There's very rarely a middle ground.

I usually just chalk it up to hearsay, propaganda, and artistic license.

For example, if we look at the Bible, the battles number in the hundreds of thousands despite that not being physically possible for the time period. Then, during the Greco-Persian wars, it was claimed that Xerxes had a million man army when in reality it was more like 100,000. All in all, historical accounts like to embellish their stories to sound more exciting. It's the equivalent of saying "there's like a bajillion of them!".

I presume the same could be said about 40k accounts because they can't all be true at the same time.

Agreed. This is pretty much what I tell myself. My head fluff states that realistically there are a lot more Marines out there and they are a lot less deadlier then the stories. One Marine being able to take on 3 humans maybe 4 depending on the situation. But nowhere near the whole 1 Marine can take over a planet or destroy a whole company of guardsmen... that’s just stupid, especially with all their weapons which could easily rip apart power armor (plasma, meltas, hot shots, missile launchers, lascannons etc...).

The primarchs: Fulgrim shows how 8 marines can take a planet, everyone just thinks it's going pure attack and taking/holding ground, they are wrong, a space marine represents so much more than just a superhuman in walking tank armour, they can cripple morale, cause extreme confusion and fear, attack nearly anywhere at anytime and retreat just as fast, they are also amazing force multiplyers.

Right but "sewing confusion and fear" isn't how you conquer territory. It's how you make the enemy surrender, sure, so that you conventional (read: Imperial Guard) forces come in to actually hold the ground. And they're an excellent force multiplier... for the tens of thousands of conventional (read: Imperial Guard) forces that accompany them. The 8 Marines in Fulgrim did not conquer the planet. Lesser troops had to go physically be there to actually conquer it, after the Marines forced a surrender.

Fulgrim orchestrated the events that ledd to the planet being made compliant, with the aid of 8 marines to make it happen, twist it anyway you like, they conquered the planet with unconventional tactics, is the planet in the hands of the imperium, yes, was it as a direct result of the marines, yes, they conquered the planet.

 Formosa wrote:
Fulgrim orchestrated the events that ledd to the planet being made compliant, with the aid of 8 marines to make it happen, twist it anyway you like, they conquered the planet with unconventional tactics, is the planet in the hands of the imperium, yes, was it as a direct result of the marines, yes, they conquered the planet.

I'll read the book, but if it's anything other than "Marines made the planet surrender with confusion and fear while Guard/Imperial Army actually landed to occupy and hold it" I'll be surprised. Because that's just silliness. 8 people, even 8 Supermen, couldn't hold a planet. There is literally one more Space Marine involved here than there are entire continents here on earth. One Marine per continent, plus another one on an extra-unruly one (damn Australians) does not mean we've been conquered.

I can understanding 8 Marines making a planet surrender, but that's not what most people mean when they say "conquered".

Anytime a Space Marine Terminator shows up. In the first Horus Heresy books and the Dark Imperium has this. An entire squad of autogun wielding cultists lay down the fire and the Terminators don’t take any loses.

Now I’m not saying that it’s impossible, but terminators should have at least one causality just based on shear amount of firepower. There are scenes where they walk through rocket propelled grenades without any structural damage to the armour. At the very least one of them should have taken an injury. No causualties is kind of insane.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Anytime a Space Marine Terminator shows up. In the first Horus Heresy books and the Dark Imperium has this. An entire squad of autogun wielding cultists lay down the fire and the Terminators don’t take any loses.

Now I’m not saying that it’s impossible, but terminators should have at least one causality just based on shear amount of firepower. There are scenes where they walk through rocket propelled grenades without any structural damage to the armour. At the very least one of them should have taken an injury. No causualties is kind of insane.

Conversely, you have some of the Ben Counter Grey Knight books where random industrial servitors are going toe-to-toe with Grey Knights in Terminator Armour using nothing more than drills and mining lasers. Heck, in some of the books GKTs get taken out by particularly aggressive tentacles.

But bullets? Nah, man, try tentacles. Bullets are so 21st century.

There's a theme of ranged weapons being worse than melee weapons, Cain chainsword is a lot more dangerous than his laspistol, for example, and everyone carrying a pistol and a power weapon will run out of ammo before doing much with it. I think the only exception to this that I can think of is the Kasrkin master sergeant in Cadian Blood, but that's probably because he barely uses his power sword over his pistol/rifle and its shattered in the one scene where it shows up.