Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

since he returned, how would you rate his leadership and effectiveness as Lord Commander?

I'm gonna say we have insufficant data.

But given what Gulliman HAS pulled off so far he's certainly the most effective leadership the IoM has had since his alst turn at the helm

Given that the tech and organization of IoM military has been stalled for 10000 years. It is expected the way wars ate waged is not changed. So what Guilliman had known to work is still considered work. So he might still be the most capable commander of IoM warfare.

He has been pretty pragmatic so far which is good.

He might be uncomfortable with being revered as a demigod but has seen how the Imperial creed is very useful both for legitimising his takeover of the Imperium's command structure and holding the disparate cultures and worlds together under immense pressure.

He's been a good leader.

Personally i think that was the plan GW had for him all along.

Roboute had to be "rebranded" since the the whole "Spiritual Liege" business - part of that was accomplished through the Horus Heresy novels.

He's probably going to end up playing a role similar to the one Karl Franz used to play in Old Warhammer Fantasy.

Here's this highly capable, human, upright, and intelligent person in this gak position.

I mean, hell, given the novels, he's more of an Emperor in terms of his behavior, in terms of what the people need, than the Actual Emperor (who is better off as a Symbol or Ideal....or frankly a God for his people).

i think what we will see of him is ultimately a Man fighting against incredibly enormous odds, winning pyrrhic victories for the betterment of the Imperium and the being that person that the Actual Emperor can't be....

Hw is leader they need.

He is a emparors son and can rally people behind him. She managed to bring them from the brink ans Mount a new counter crusade.

He had rallied a dying empire. Things still ain't good but without him it was totally doomed.

2019

would you guys say he has been a better leader than even his father?

Just finished plague war and I'd say he is doing a good job of riding the line between politician and warmaster (cos that is what he is)

LightKing wrote:
2019

would you guys say he has been a better leader than even his father?

Yes but so am I.

GrapeApe wrote:
He's been a good leader.
Roboute had to be "rebranded" since the the whole "Spiritual Liege" business - part of that was accomplished through the Horus Heresy novels.

Guilliman was never the "spiritual liege" in 5th edition lore. That was Marneus Calgar. No one seems to remember this.

He's doing about as well as you can expect. His traitor brothers outnumber him badly. But he's probably the only thing that's held the imperium together at this point as well. Without him and the primaris project in my mind, the 13th black crusade would have finally done the imperium in. Not quickly perhaps. But it would have succeeded.

He's rallied the disparate factions of the imperium under a single banner, and his skill with logistics and organization helps coordinate defenses across the vastness of the imperium.

Very poor. He allowed the new-marine heresy to defile the Emperor's sacred work instead of executing everyone involved, and he seems far too concerned with becoming a new emperor than humble service to God.

My rating is that we still do not have enough information to know. So far Guilliman has been reactive. His actions all have been about putting out fires and trying to rollback Chaos gains. However what will be more important in the end is what he accomplishes off the battlefield in terms of reform. From what little we do know from the novels, it seems he has been taking the pragmatic approach in order to maintain the flow of troops and material rather than risk provoking a civil war. This reactive approach though still seems to be at best stalling Chaos, with the attacked planets left ruined and unproductive to the wider Imperium.

Has he made any reform to governance? We have little nitty gritty policy details probably because that is not the kind of thing GW focuses on. However Guilliman also seems to flit around from one warzone to another, dealing with whatever the latest threat is, so I have to wonder how effective any actual reform will be as I could easily see administrative inertia kicking back in as soon as he is gone from an area.

I rate him very low and with suspicion. He's always been very aggressive at asserting his authority i.e. his Book Crusade. I think the current political & military prestige climate has emboldened him more so. He's probably had a few thoughts while looking at the throne. You could kind of play it out looking at the primaris situation and grading him by how they're doing on the battlefield which isn't so hot ether.

 Viridian wrote:
I rate him very low and with suspicion. He's always been very aggressive at asserting his authority i.e. his Book Crusade. I think the current political & military prestige climate has emboldened him more so. He's probably had a few thoughts while looking at the throne. You could kind of play it out looking at the primaris situation and grading him by how they're doing on the battlefield which isn't so hot ether.

God I'm so looking forward to the second founding getting explored and all those people who thought the codex was just Gulliman twisting arms to get everyone to accept his ideas is completely out to lunch

Iracundus wrote:
My rating is that we still do not have enough information to know. So far Guilliman has been reactive. His actions all have been about putting out fires and trying to rollback Chaos gains. However what will be more important in the end is what he accomplishes off the battlefield in terms of reform. From what little we do know from the novels, it seems he has been taking the pragmatic approach in order to maintain the flow of troops and material rather than risk provoking a civil war. This reactive approach though still seems to be at best stalling Chaos, with the attacked planets left ruined and unproductive to the wider Imperium.

Has he made any reform to governance? We have little nitty gritty policy details probably because that is not the kind of thing GW focuses on. However Guilliman also seems to flit around from one warzone to another, dealing with whatever the latest threat is, so I have to wonder how effective any actual reform will be as I could easily see administrative inertia kicking back in as soon as he is gone from an area.

Yes, he has reformed the 500 worlds, the tetrarchs, told planetary lords that they must come back into "compliance" under threat of the sword, formed a new arm of governance dedicated to history and learning, created multiple chapters, blocked cawls bid for fabricator general.... man has been busy and all of that is just the first dark imperium book, havent mentioned the sequel.

 Formosa wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
My rating is that we still do not have enough information to know. So far Guilliman has been reactive. His actions all have been about putting out fires and trying to rollback Chaos gains. However what will be more important in the end is what he accomplishes off the battlefield in terms of reform. From what little we do know from the novels, it seems he has been taking the pragmatic approach in order to maintain the flow of troops and material rather than risk provoking a civil war. This reactive approach though still seems to be at best stalling Chaos, with the attacked planets left ruined and unproductive to the wider Imperium.

Has he made any reform to governance? We have little nitty gritty policy details probably because that is not the kind of thing GW focuses on. However Guilliman also seems to flit around from one warzone to another, dealing with whatever the latest threat is, so I have to wonder how effective any actual reform will be as I could easily see administrative inertia kicking back in as soon as he is gone from an area.

Yes, he has reformed the 500 worlds, the tetrarchs, told planetary lords that they must come back into "compliance" under threat of the sword, formed a new arm of governance dedicated to history and learning, created multiple chapters, blocked cawls bid for fabricator general.... man has been busy and all of that is just the first dark imperium book, havent mentioned the sequel.

He has started a few things like those mentioned above but the question is in the long term execution and maintenance of those things, because he is getting distracted by yet another threat that he then has to rush to. For example in those novels, he had been planning some calendrical reform and trying to piece together a more coherent history of the Imperium from the disjointed redacted mess of account to available. However he is forced to divert his attention to the latest military threat. The question is whether he ever really gets time to pick up those matters again and finish what he starts.

He will, he is a primarch, while he is doing whatever he is doing in any conflict it will be ticking away in the back of his head that is basically guillimans thing, all the way back in know no fear it was shown the guy is a multi tasker supreme and walking computer, not on the level of some of his brothers mind you but when it comes to empire building, maintenance and restructure, no other primarch comes close.

Well, he his the real Statesman of the Imperium. Not easy coming back and see how secularized the Imperium is right now. But he knows he can not change it righ now because the power of the eclessiarchy.

He would like that the Imperium looks likes Ultramar, but one thing are 500 World and other the entire Imperium.

Inresume I think he is doing pretty good.

He seems to be moving in the best interests of humanity, he isn’t sitting around twiddling his thumbs, and he hasn’t made what I would consider any major blunders since the whole Magnus arc. I’d say Guilliman’s leadership skills are pretty good.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
He seems to be moving in the best interests of humanity, he isn’t sitting around twiddling his thumbs, and he hasn’t made what I would consider any major blunders since the whole Magnus arc. I’d say Guilliman’s leadership skills are pretty good.

the people of Iax might disagree with that asessment, but you're mostly right

He is doing the best job he can while having to deal with dangerous zealots (Mathieu) who he unfortunately can't simply get rid off.

Killing off a few High Lords of Terra for being inefficient scrubs scored him points in my book.

He's also done a fair job on his end at holding the tenuous Human-Eldar alliance together.

Iracundus wrote:
He has started a few things like those mentioned above but the question is in the long term execution and maintenance of those things, because he is getting distracted by yet another threat that he then has to rush to. For example in those novels, he had been planning some calendrical reform and trying to piece together a more coherent history of the Imperium from the disjointed redacted mess of account to available. However he is forced to divert his attention to the latest military threat. The question is whether he ever really gets time to pick up those matters again and finish what he starts.

That's why I expect him to dump all the warmaster duties on Russ or Lion or whoever other loyalist shows up first and call it a day before getting to more important matters.

Would be pretty funny if Lion came back, still bitter he wasn't name warmaster, and threatened Rob to give him the title (or else) only to be met "Sure, you're starting yesterday, there are only 4850683 warzones to urgently tackle by tomorrow, your pick. Have fun!"

 Irbis wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
He has started a few things like those mentioned above but the question is in the long term execution and maintenance of those things, because he is getting distracted by yet another threat that he then has to rush to. For example in those novels, he had been planning some calendrical reform and trying to piece together a more coherent history of the Imperium from the disjointed redacted mess of account to available. However he is forced to divert his attention to the latest military threat. The question is whether he ever really gets time to pick up those matters again and finish what he starts.

That's why I expect him to dump all the warmaster duties on Russ or Lion or whoever other loyalist shows up first and call it a day before getting to more important matters.

Would be pretty funny if Lion came back, still bitter he wasn't name warmaster, and threatened Rob to give him the title (or else) only to be met "Sure, you're starting yesterday, there are only 4850683 warzones to urgently tackle by tomorrow, your pick. Have fun!"

He can’t be depending on another of his brothers to show up out of the blue though. That seems a bit ridiculous. Maybe he’s just hoping for anyone competent enough to take the mantle on, but waiting for a missing primarch to come back before everything falls apart seems myopic even for the 40k universe.

Eh, he's no Macharius, but he's at least holding the line better than the average council of the High Lords of Terra do.

 Melissia wrote:
Eh, he's no Macharius, but he's at least holding the line better than the average council of the High Lords of Terra do.

I would argue he was not really a good leader considering that his own men would later do. Macharius is a good military tactician, but he does have the political experience or any that matches Guilliman. Guilliman, on the other hand, is more than a Warmaster, but a man that is focused on civic duties as well as military. In this case, Macharius is nothing more than another Horus with his need for conquest and such things.

 Nova_Impero wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Eh, he's no Macharius, but he's at least holding the line better than the average council of the High Lords of Terra do.

I would argue he was not really a good leader considering that his own men would later do. Macharius is a good military tactician, but he does have the political experience or any that matches Guilliman. Guilliman, on the other hand, is more than a Warmaster, but a man that is focused on civic duties as well as military. In this case, Macharius is nothing more than another Horus with his need for conquest and such things.

agreed. Gulliman left a solid legacy behind of insitutions so that when he fell, his achomplishments where kept and even expanded upon. Macharius conqured a buncha worlds... and then promptly had it fall apart, perhaps he should have expanded slower, and worked harder and building what he kept, so it would LAST

BrianDavion wrote:

 Nova_Impero wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Eh, he's no Macharius, but he's at least holding the line better than the average council of the High Lords of Terra do.

I would argue he was not really a good leader considering that his own men would later do. Macharius is a good military tactician, but he does have the political experience or any that matches Guilliman. Guilliman, on the other hand, is more than a Warmaster, but a man that is focused on civic duties as well as military. In this case, Macharius is nothing more than another Horus with his need for conquest and such things.

agreed. Gulliman left a solid legacy behind of insitutions so that when he fell, his accomplishments where kept and even expanded upon. Macharius conqured a buncha worlds... and then promptly had it fall apart, perhaps he should have expanded slower, and worked harder and building what he kept, so it would LAST

If there is one thing that Guilliman did right was creating a stable system. It might be out of date at this point, but it survived for the most part.