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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/02 15:22:52
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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So I have only played WFB a couple of times. I bought the 6th Edition set ages ago and still have it. I expanded on it a little with contents from another 6th edition set I got for cheap, but while I like the Empire and Orcs, I couldn't bring myself to get started on the models.
While I liked the looks of 7th and 8th, I never sprung on either set, as WFB just wasn't in my blood. I have mostly been a 40k player. But lately I have lost interest in 40k. And I do not like what I see from Sigmar. While I acknowledge that GW is putting out some amazing stuff, I miss the look and feel of older models too.
And I do love starter sets. And for some reason, those that are oop. :/
So after thinking about it for some time, I decided to spring an arm and a leg to pick up Skull Pass and Island of Blood. I am not going to expand much on any of the starter armies I will have (which will be 6 now), but I intend to give what I do have the best shot at modelling. I am not the kind of guy who shows up at tournaments or hobby stores looking for players, so its either pinning down my friends or not playing at all. So typically this means I have to supply most of what we are playing with, so I am trying to build balanced armies where I would be happy to play any of them in a small game.
I recently discovered 6th edition Ravening Hordes which I had no idea about, and this is what I am basing all of my armies off of, as I looked online and it includes just about everything I'll need, so I am stoked. Beats having to hunt down different army books for each race (or even edition).
I have no idea what differs from 6th, 7th, or 8th, and I haven't really read the 6th edition rulebook to any great degree. Any recommendations on which ruleset to start with? WFB seems really rules heavy in general.
Its been a long time since i was this excited about a modelling project.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/02 19:40:01
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Primus
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Ravening Hordes has almost everything you need. It has the Steam Tank, the Halfling Hotpot and Chaos Dwarfs.
The only outwrite change I would make is to update the Bretonnian Lance Formation. The 6th edition Armybook does the Lance so much better than Ravening Hordes.
The other changes are ones I would like, and think would help their respective armies a nice thematic boost.
Give Bretonnia Pegasus Knights: Special, 0-1 and 61 points each.
Allow Beastmen to take 1 unit of Minotaurs as core.
That is it for my recommended changes to Ravening Hordes.
There is very little difference between 6th and 7th edition, I prefer 7th edition as I think it is 6th tidied up. (I also prefer looking at units 5 models wide as opposed to 4 models wide).
8th edition is its own beast though, and I think it did some things better than the other two editions and some things worse. It really did encourage alot of models and alot of dice rolling though. The one clear improvement was to do with Army construction. In 6th/7th your army selection was restricted by the number of units you could take. 8th edition restricted army selection based on the amount of points units costed.
In conclusion, I would say use the 6th or 7th edition core rules with the Ravening Hordes army lists (don't forget the updated Lance Formation) with the army construction rules from 8th edition.
I hope what I wrote is clear enough to understand?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/02 19:41:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/03 07:37:22
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Keeper of the Flame
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This one is in my wheelhouse.
The difference between 6th and 7th is nominal. What 7th changed is the following:
Models needed in rank to gain bonus moved from 4 to 5. This is one I'm not sure I'm happy about. You REALLY feel it if you are trying to rank up any expensive 25mm base infantry, ogre sized monsters (like my Minotaur army), and especially cavalry.
Only the 2 Power Dice generated by the army or ones explicitly stated in the item description are for all wizards to use. Dice generated by a wizard must be used by that wizard. One of the best rules changes.
Swarms are still Unbreakable, but now take wounds from combat resolution like Undead. This leads to a low Initiative WS2 model taking a wound for every wound it loses combat by. Basically it castrates the swarm.
Insane Courage. If you roll a natural 2 on 2D6 for any leadership based test, even break tests, you automatically pass. This is a speedbump for the Fear rule that causes a unit that loses combat to a fear causing unit that outnumbers it to autobreak. This is one that my "club" has adopted as well as the Power Dice rule.
If a unit that won and pursued/wiped out/overran a unit moves into a combat that hasn't been fought, it can fight a second combat. This is probably the most egregious rule to come out of 7th. Combine this with fear causing cavalry flanking and you can see how you can cripple an army that isn't completely unbreakable. It's one of the main reasons I'd rather patch a few house rules into 6th than play 7th.
A Battle Standard Bearer's +1 to Combat Resolution is in addition to any Standard already in the unit. While this doesn't seem as massive as the other rules thrown in, the fact that the BSB's points didn't go up should have been a red flag. The Battle Standard already got many perks for the paltry price it paid, it didn't need the extra point.
The magic lores were also changed a bit.
All in all, it depends on what your tastes are. 6th Edition rules with the unchanged Ravening Hordes lists is the most fair and balanced game of WFB you will ever get. It's like 3rd Edition 40K with the army lists in the book.7th brought some stuff that was a little more competitive in nature, as well as a couple balancing moves. If you've got the rulebooks and Ravening Hordes, you're already to a great start.
I wouldn't, however, just start changing things in the lists until you've played enough to "get" the values of said lists. The 6th Edition Bretonnian army book was written from an entirely different balance paradigm, and from a different points value.
Also, there are some resources over at www.classichammer.com that may help out.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 07:46:59
www.classichammer.com
For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming
Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/03 13:59:08
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Great thanks to both of you for your input. I don't know enough of the rules to follow everything you are saying at the moment but I imagine once I get my feet wet, I will have a clearer picture.
I guess I will work on focusing on the 6th edition rulebook and work up from there.
Is movement pretty much the same throughout the editions? I keep seeing many examples of different moves in the rulebooks and wonder if everything is typically the same.
Also, on the rank and file... going from 4 bases wide to 5... in the 6th edition set, it includes two 'detachments' of handgunners with the unit of Spearmen. Why aren't the handgunners about to just move independently if I can form 2 ranks?
I intend on getting other armies assembled in addition to what I already have, in the same size of the other starter warbands. On my list of priorities are Chaos Warriors and Vampire Counts. Are these cool?
I know nothing about Lizardmen, but was thinking about them too cause they look so different from the other armies.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/03 15:00:00
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Charging Orc Boar Boy
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If you stick to 6th Edition with Ravening Hordes, you will have some great games, no worries.
I personally prefer a fan-based ruleset which is pretty close to 6th/7th edition rules, but if you already have ravening hordes and the fantastic 6th edition core rulebook (from the starterset), you can as well stick with it.
If I get it correctly, you have twice the content of 6th edi starter box, and one of blood isle and skull pass each.
That means roundabout 30 Orcs with additional choppa, 24 Orc archers, 2 bosses on Boar, 2 Orc boar chariots, 10 Goblin spider riders, 20 night goblin archers, 2x20 night goblin stickaz, and a night goblin shaman and a night goblin boss.
The second largest part are the empire troops, 2 cannons/mortars, some 30 spearmen, 24? Handgunners and 2 captains on horseback.
Dwarves are some 15 clan warriors with handweapon / shield, some with muskets, a slayer hero, a dwarven thane and a cannon if i remember correctly.
Blood isle has some ellyrian reavers, spearmen, swordmasters, a mage and a hero on monster if I remember correctly, and the skaven clanrats, stormrats, a war machine, rat ogres and some characters.
First: You can have small, enjoyable games of around 750 points with all of these armies, though they may not be 100 % balanced because some armies lack essential parts for a well-rounded army composition. Still, I would recommend you to try it out and if you find it to be fun ( I am pretty sure you will) you can bolster the armies afterwards a bit with the missing supportive units.
Movement is pretty much the same in 6th and 7th.
Units in block formation can move in the direction they face.
Turning and increasing / decreasing ranks to a certain amount costs you a quarter of your movement rate if you only move forward with wheeling around a bit, you can decide to march, which doubles the movement rate. Attacking is also done with 2x movement rate, but you have to guess if you are close enough already. (they changed that in 8th, where you roll 2d6 plus base movement instead)
Your question about rank and file: I don't get what you mean, sorry
Basically, units can only fire from the front rank in 6th and 7th, except if you're firing at a large target or on targets on a hill (or if you are standing on a hill yourself and firing on units on another "level")
So forming up in one ranks makes sense, providing you want to fire with as many handgunners as possible. On the other hand, if you form in ranks, you get a bonus in close combat if you are 4 (5) models wide and have a full rank of this amount of handgunners left at the beginning of close combat behind the first one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, one downside of using 6th edition rules: No special rules for the spider riders, they returned to the regular O&G roster in 7th. But you could treat them as wolf riders, or, use the point values of wolf riders and change them a bit: Spiders have a movement of 7 instead of 9, poison attacks, and are not slowed down by forest difficult terrain. And no option for wearing armor to get a 4+ ward save for free like the wolf riders have.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 15:03:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/03 15:36:23
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Wow I am kind of surprised how well 6th edition is thought of.
As far as my 6th starter armies, I have to admit I did trim down what I had between the two 6th edition starter sets. So I have 20 Orcs with Choppas, 20 Arrer boyz, one chariot, a couple of bosses, a couple sets of champions, standards, and musicians. I also I bought a shaman separately.. For the Empire its similar: 20 Spearmen, 20 Handgunners, great cannon, two heros, a couple sets of champions, standards, and musicians, as well as a wizard I purchased separately.
In my ranks question above, I realize that might be a tactic for the Empire, and I am not sure if it is used in all of the different editions. Will check into that more and get back to you.
I do have a question about ranks for missile troops. My understanding is that you get +1 for each rank in determining combat bonuses, but what value is it for Handgunners to be two ranks if only the rank can usually fire? Why not put them in a single line so they all can fire?
I will admit that the two ranks looks cool, and reflects how they would probably look in real life (one rank firing, the other reloading). Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, is there a point to the Grudge Pony Cart in the Skull Pass set? I was hoping the Read This First book would have some scenarios that used it, and the goblin tent, and tied up Slayer, but this isnt the case. There is no mention of it in Ravening Hordes. Is this just scenery?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 15:58:01
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/03 16:14:07
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Charging Orc Boar Boy
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Maybe it is because 6th was such a fantastic leap rule-wise from 5th for most veteran players. ravening hordes was an excellent approach and allowed far more balanced games than in older editions, having almost all of the citadel model range covered in one little textbook.
Later army books started to spoil that though, especially in the 7th edition era.
Empire vs Orcs will work out fine with what you have! A bit of infantry, some war machines, mages, and even the crappy orc archers might be tough enough to smash some empire soldiers.
And yes, you got that correctly, it makes next to never any sense to put your hangunners in two lines, while they should be firing at the approaching greenskins.
At least in 6th and 7th.
In 8th, you were allowed to fire from 2 ranks.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/03 16:15:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/03 18:53:33
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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I would certainly get Ravening Hordes.
I would also get 8th, the edition has its issues but also has its strengths.
Finally I would pick up 9th Age.
Mix and match.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/03 22:22:09
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Primus
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If you are still planning on getting a Chaos army you have a huge selection of new Chaos Warriors from Age of Sigmar to choose from.
In 8th edition I used historical miniature as my Chaos Marauders. It made the Chaos Warriors look more epic next to the more normal looking Gripping Beast Vikings/ Warlord Games Ancient Germans.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/04 03:15:19
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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KTG17 wrote:Wow I am kind of surprised how well 6th edition is thought of.
Nostalgia goggles. 6th had a lot of problems, 8th is in my opinion a far better system, but it is let down by one or two stupid rules. Steadfast needed to be nerfed. The best fix for 8th is to get an early edition of 9th Age before it diversified from its Warhammer roots. That means version 1.0 or 1.1.
KTG17 wrote:
As far as my 6th starter armies, I have to admit I did trim down what I had between the two 6th edition starter sets. So I have 20 Orcs with Choppas, 20 Arrer boyz, one chariot, a couple of bosses, a couple sets of champions, standards, and musicians. I also I bought a shaman separately.. For the Empire its similar: 20 Spearmen, 20 Handgunners, great cannon, two heros, a couple sets of champions, standards, and musicians, as well as a wizard I purchased separately.
That is the 6th edition core boxset, it was a very good set and the models are usable. Personally I prefer them, good clean simple sculpts not overburdened by junk detail. Check to see you still have the rules, and also look to buy another copy to make the numbers of models worthwhile.
KTG17 wrote:
In my ranks question above, I realize that might be a tactic for the Empire, and I am not sure if it is used in all of the different editions. Will check into that more and get back to you.
Twenty makes a basic unit for 6th and 7th, in 8th you need about double that. Halve both numbers for missile units.
KTG17 wrote:
I do have a question about ranks for missile troops. My understanding is that you get +1 for each rank in determining combat bonuses, but what value is it for Handgunners to be two ranks if only the rank can usually fire? Why not put them in a single line so they all can fire?
Until 8th you could only fire in one rank, which meant taking an archer army difficult as fire volume was very low. Single rank lines look crap too, two rank missile line units look a lot better, and have enough fire volume to be useful.
KTG17 wrote:
I will admit that the two ranks looks cool, and reflects how they would probably look in real life (one rank firing, the other reloading).
Play 8th.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, is there a point to the Grudge Pony Cart in the Skull Pass set? I was hoping the Read This First book would have some scenarios that used it, and the goblin tent, and tied up Slayer, but this isnt the case. There is no mention of it in Ravening Hordes. Is this just scenery?
It never had rules, you could use it for scenarios or as background terrain. Grudge ponies make good limbers for your artillery, but again that is just scenery. WHFB only ever had one artillery piece with a limber in all its editions.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/04 09:39:40
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Charging Orc Boar Boy
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Orlanth wrote:KTG17 wrote:Wow I am kind of surprised how well 6th edition is thought of.
Nostalgia goggles. 6th had a lot of problems, 8th is in my opinion a far better system, but it is let down by one or two stupid rules. Steadfast needed to be nerfed. The best fix for 8th is to get an early edition of 9th Age before it diversified from its Warhammer roots. That means version 1.0 or 1.1.
I disagree on that one. I played 8th long enough and switched to a system based on 6th/7th afterwards and never looked back again. So for me 8th is surely worse than 6th. But I don't want to fan this fire again. ![](/s/i/a/baf5f2e54c6b17d5c5d39aecadfa1272.gif) I do not know much about 9th age because I never considered it to be a good alternative for me personally. It sure fixed some of the bigger issues but kept a lot of 8th that bothered me.
Twenty makes a basic unit for 6th and 7th, in 8th you need about double that. Halve both numbers for missile units.
And that is why I wouldn't recommend 8th. High model count without making the game any better. Except for the sales guys
Somebody with a smaller budget / limited access to new troops should not go for these brick tile size unit game that the 8th was.
KTG17 wrote:
I do have a question about ranks for missile troops. My understanding is that you get +1 for each rank in determining combat bonuses, but what value is it for Handgunners to be two ranks if only the rank can usually fire? Why not put them in a single line so they all can fire?
Until 8th you could only fire in one rank, which meant taking an archer army difficult as fire volume was very low. Single rank lines look crap too, two rank missile line units look a lot better, and have enough fire volume to be useful.
KTG17 wrote:
I will admit that the two ranks looks cool, and reflects how they would probably look in real life (one rank firing, the other reloading).
Play 8th.
Don't
Well you can give it a try yourself, and see which suits you most.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/04 09:43:06
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/04 11:38:19
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Keeper of the Flame
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Moscha wrote: If you stick to 6th Edition with Ravening Hordes, you will have some great games, no worries.
This is about as accurate a statement as has ever been made on Dakka.
Moscha wrote:First: You can have small, enjoyable games of around 750 points with all of these armies, though they may not be 100 % balanced because some armies lack essential parts for a well-rounded army composition. Still, I would recommend you to try it out and if you find it to be fun ( I am pretty sure you will) you can bolster the armies afterwards a bit with the missing supportive units.
I also agree with the sizes here, but the caveat that I would work towards 1,000 point forces. They ascribe minimum sizes to units, which you'll find in your army lists I believe. So in Ravening Hordes there should be a number given such as 10+ for infantry units, 5+ for cavalry units, 3+ for ogre sized units. You may need to be forgiving as far as that goes as a few units you own may be a model or two shy, but it's an easy fix. OR chase down the corresponding models to bulk the unit up to "legal" size. It all depends on what you're gaming group is cool with.
Same goes for the Core/Special/Rare thing. Your High Elves from the Isle of Blood starter, for instance, only have one Core unit per Ravening Hordes. So it's either ignore that portion just for that army until you have another Core unit, or run your Reavers as Silver Helms. Easy solutions abounds, and since it's not a tourney setting, things don't have to be as "rigid".
Moscha wrote:Your question about rank and file: I don't get what you mean, sorry
Basically, units can only fire from the front rank in 6th and 7th, except if you're firing at a large target or on targets on a hill (or if you are standing on a hill yourself and firing on units on another "level")
That's the PRECISE reason for ranking them. I typically run 20 man ballistic units on a hill in two ranks. They get a decent amount of shots, and tend to draw attention out to break up battle lines. Also, with a back rank and higher ground, you have a reasonable chance of surviving a charge if things go that far south.
Moscha wrote:Oh, one downside of using 6th edition rules: No special rules for the spider riders, they returned to the regular O&G roster in 7th. But you could treat them as wolf riders, or, use the point values of wolf riders and change them a bit: Spiders have a movement of 7 instead of 9, poison attacks, and are not slowed down by forest difficult terrain. And no option for wearing armor to get a 4+ ward save for free like the wolf riders have.
Not true. Ravening Hordes still had rules for Spider Riders.
KTG17 wrote:Also, on the rank and file... going from 4 bases wide to 5... in the 6th edition set, it includes two 'detachments' of handgunners with the unit of Spearmen. Why aren't the handgunners about to just move independently if I can form 2 ranks?
You can totally move them and deploy them independently. The Detachment rule was a special rule specific to Empire, but it wasn't in the Ravening Hordes lists. It basically allowed you to "link" certain units to a parent unit. The Detachments had to be no bigger than half the size of the parent unit, and had to deploy a certain distance from the unit. Detachments used the Leadership of the parent unit, and could do two drastically gamebreaking things: ballistic units could Stand And Shoot at units that charged the parent unit, and ANY Detachment could countercharge the unit that charged the parent unit. Halberdiers were excellent for this. So, for NO ADDITIONAL POINTS COST, charging in got your unit shot, which if memory serves (since I'm at work and don't have my book in front of me) counted as wounds in combat for Combat Resolution, and then countercharged by a unit that now not only goes before you, but negates your rank bonus and gains a +1 CR for Flanking. All the Empire troops are cheap to start with, the Detachment rule was simply ridiculous. My opinion, of course.
quote=KTG17]I intend on getting other armies assembled in addition to what I already have, in the same size of the other starter warbands. On my list of priorities are Chaos Warriors and Vampire Counts. Are these cool?
They are cool. They are fun. They also have nuances that other armies don't have. They also have no ballistic troops, so you have to plan for that. Also, Chaos Warriors are expensive pointswise, so Marauders are your friend.
quote=KTG17]I know nothing about Lizardmen, but was thinking about them too cause they look so different from the other armies.
Lizardmen is my brother's main army, and I've had more experience playing them than any other army. They are a tough prospect when it comes to break tests, Psychology, and the like, but the Saurus are quite expensive, which means a Lizardmen player will either be grossly outnumbered typically, or you will be facing a LOT of Skink blowpipes. At the size of battles you are planning, you won't have to deal with Slann, and that's a good thing. Slann also work VERY different in Ravening Hordes than they do in the army book.
KTG17 wrote:Wow I am kind of surprised how well 6th edition is thought of.
It's because 6th took EVERTHING that made 5th imbalanced/broken and threw it out the window. It was a reset aimed at making it a game about armies, not about that dude on a dragon that could slaughter anything in his path. Everything they changed was intuitive and streamlined. It's basically to WFB what 3rd Edition was to 40K. It's also the base for everything afterwards except AOS, so pretty much all of it is viewed from a "what changed from 6th vs. what shouldn't have changed from 6th" lens.
KTG17 wrote:I do have a question about ranks for missile troops. My understanding is that you get +1 for each rank in determining combat bonuses, but what value is it for Handgunners to be two ranks if only the rank can usually fire? Why not put them in a single line so they all can fire?
I will admit that the two ranks looks cool, and reflects how they would probably look in real life (one rank firing, the other reloading).
I addressed this above. I always camp my ballistic troops on a hill, they just get a better return on investment up there.
KTG17 wrote:Also, is there a point to the Grudge Pony Cart in the Skull Pass set? I was hoping the Read This First book would have some scenarios that used it, and the goblin tent, and tied up Slayer, but this isnt the case. There is no mention of it in Ravening Hordes. Is this just scenery?
It's literally just scenery. You could always hunt down more and do a "counts as" Regiment of Renown or Dogs of War unit.
Now this is going to be a bit rough, and I want to preface this with the knowledge that I respect Orlanth's opinions, and have had stellar conversations with him in the past, but on this one occasion I've got to dispute 3/4 or more of what he's posted.
So don't be mad, please.
Orlanth wrote: KTG17 wrote:Wow I am kind of surprised how well 6th edition is thought of.
Nostalgia goggles. 6th had a lot of problems, 8th is in my opinion a far better system, but it is let down by one or two stupid rules. Steadfast needed to be nerfed. The best fix for 8th is to get an early edition of 9th Age before it diversified from its Warhammer roots. That means version 1.0 or 1.1..
6th didn't really have that many problems, and the problems it did have from the rulebook I addressed in an earlier post. Army book creep was a problem, but that isn't going to affect someone running Ravening Hordes. 8th edition took everything that was bad about 5th and crammed it back in, and made adjustments to compensate for bot the Herohammer and Magichammer issues by making several units have multiple root attacks. 9th age took that paradigm and made it ultra competitive. If you're into 40K level wounds caused and game ending spells, then I guess it did exactly what it was supposed to.
6th did what it was supposed to: streamlined the game and introduced balance and fair army composition. Nothing "nostalgia goggles" about that.
Orlanth wrote:KTG17 wrote:
As far as my 6th starter armies, I have to admit I did trim down what I had between the two 6th edition starter sets. So I have 20 Orcs with Choppas, 20 Arrer boyz, one chariot, a couple of bosses, a couple sets of champions, standards, and musicians. I also I bought a shaman separately.. For the Empire its similar: 20 Spearmen, 20 Handgunners, great cannon, two heros, a couple sets of champions, standards, and musicians, as well as a wizard I purchased separately.
That is the 6th edition core boxset, it was a very good set and the models are usable. Personally I prefer them, good clean simple sculpts not overburdened by junk detail. Check to see you still have the rules, and also look to buy another copy to make the numbers of models worthwhile..
The boxed sets certainly had good models, it's part of why there's so much appeal for the older starter sets. It's also why I'm not buying tons of them, as the aftermarket price is flat out ridiculous now.
Orlanth wrote:KTG17 wrote:
I do have a question about ranks for missile troops. My understanding is that you get +1 for each rank in determining combat bonuses, but what value is it for Handgunners to be two ranks if only the rank can usually fire? Why not put them in a single line so they all can fire?
Until 8th you could only fire in one rank, which meant taking an archer army difficult as fire volume was very low. Single rank lines look crap too, two rank missile line units look a lot better, and have enough fire volume to be useful..
That was part of the problem with 8th, increasing the kill ratio across the board. Granted, all it took was putting your archers on the hill to get the same effect as 8th, but the downside was that you could be targeted out by anyone.
Orlanth wrote:KTG17 wrote:
I will admit that the two ranks looks cool, and reflects how they would probably look in real life (one rank firing, the other reloading).
Play 8th..
Or play 6th and put your archers on the hill.
Orlanth wrote:I would certainly get Ravening Hordes.
I would also get 8th, the edition has its issues but also has its strengths.
Finally I would pick up 9th Age.
Mix and match.
Already addressed above, but the proof is in the pudding. There are several 9A battle reports in this forum to check out to see how it flows. In the end, it's all about preference. If you like the concept of the pressure of combat and psychology swinging the battle: play 6th. If you want ultimate slaughterfest between killy lords, giganting whale units in the center of the board, and 6 dicing Purple Sun: play 8th. If you want 8th but more hyper competitive: play T9A.
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For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/04 18:58:33
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Primus
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Just Tony wrote:
Already addressed above, but the proof is in the pudding. There are several 9A battle reports in this forum to check out to see how it flows. In the end, it's all about preference. If you like the concept of the pressure of combat and psychology swinging the battle: play 6th. If you want ultimate slaughterfest between killy lords, giganting whale units in the center of the board, and 6 dicing Purple Sun: play 8th. If you want 8th but more hyper competitive: play T9A.
That is only an accurate description of 8th if you are running an Ogre Kingdoms Gutstar, and if that is the case the Gutstar deserves to be Purple Sun Stunned.
8th Magic is balanced at higher points, that is one of the reasons it does not scale well compared with 6th/7th.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/04 19:20:03
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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None of the editions were well balanced, each was broken differently.
8th had better core rules for the most part with a slow fixing of earlier errors but different things getting broken.
The meta for 8th was huge units, but this wasn't necessarily the intent. If you see the Sigmars Blood campaIgn pack the unit sizes the unit sizes are very modest.
The main problems for 8th were one or two broken spells, steadfast which encouraged huge units in the meta and anything Matt Ward touched especially Daemons.
The only was to balanced WHFB is to play Ravening Hordes which is balanced but rather thin, or early editions of T9A, specifically 1.1 which is an excellent system that takes 8th and fixes it before departing from it in 1.2. I recommend you pick up both.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/05 02:23:33
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Keeper of the Flame
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StygianBeach wrote: Just Tony wrote:
Already addressed above, but the proof is in the pudding. There are several 9A battle reports in this forum to check out to see how it flows. In the end, it's all about preference. If you like the concept of the pressure of combat and psychology swinging the battle: play 6th. If you want ultimate slaughterfest between killy lords, giganting whale units in the center of the board, and 6 dicing Purple Sun: play 8th. If you want 8th but more hyper competitive: play T9A.
That is only an accurate description of 8th if you are running an Ogre Kingdoms Gutstar, and if that is the case the Gutstar deserves to be Purple Sun Stunned.
8th Magic is balanced at higher points, that is one of the reasons it does not scale well compared with 6th/7th.
BS. Look at the poster below me, even he as a fan of 8th admits that loadout was what every one was running. The meta is what everyone was running. If you looked at games, you saw people taking the obligatory 3 regiments, with only the minimum 25% Core filled in, and the other regiments the maximum killy Special and Rare, the obligatory mage, and then maybe a war machine or chaff fast cav to taste. That's it. The ONLY time people ran something other than that was to specifically be anti-meta to show not all people were running the meta lists. Tourneys told differently.
And as far as the magic being balanced at higher points? Once again, BS. It only seems balanced because once you have more bodies on the table the damage done by the spell seems less. Scalability issue isn't an intentional perk, it's bad game design.
Orlanth wrote:None of the editions were well balanced, each was broken differently.
8th had better core rules for the most part with a slow fixing of earlier errors but different things getting broken.
The meta for 8th was huge units, but this wasn't necessarily the intent. If you see the Sigmars Blood campaIgn pack the unit sizes the unit sizes are very modest.
The main problems for 8th were one or two broken spells, steadfast which encouraged huge units in the meta and anything Matt Ward touched especially Daemons.
The only was to balanced WHFB is to play Ravening Hordes which is balanced but rather thin, or early editions of T9A, specifically 1.1 which is an excellent system that takes 8th and fixes it before departing from it in 1.2. I recommend you pick up both.
Better core rules is not even subjective here. You took the slot system and breech loaded percentages into it, which I might add basically threw the limits of the slot system to the wind in the process. The magic system was simply deplorable, and random charge distance was the worst mechanic GW has ever come up with. ANY mechanic where Dwarfs could potentially roll enough to outmove Cavalry is a bad mechanic. It basically fostered to gunline or the midfield whales. No middle ground. 7th had its issues as well, it was the MSU swarm edition because of sheer number of attacks and being able to fight two combats a turn if you set things up right. The army books did most of the damage, but it started out with some issues from the get go.
My issue with T9A is that it did NOT eliminate the balance issues, all it did was cut down on some of the issues that tourney players had. That's it. And when you leave in garbage while replacing some, you get garbage in the end. Like one of my favorite sayings from one of my Drill Sergeants: What do you get when you mix 5 gallons of ice cream with 5 gallons of gak? 10 gallons of gak.
As far as intent of the writers? It doesn't matter. If they write in rules that foster to a style of play that they claim wasn't their intent, then they didn't write the rules well enough, OR should have not put those rules in.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/05 09:13:45
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Charging Orc Boar Boy
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@Just Tony: Whoa, you are right concerning Spider riders,
ravening hordes still had them, but they were flushed down the toilet with the release of the O&G army book.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/05 09:23:55
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Primus
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Just Tony wrote:
BS. Look at the poster below me, even he as a fan of 8th admits that loadout was what every one was running. The meta is what everyone was running. If you looked at games, you saw people taking the obligatory 3 regiments, with only the minimum 25% Core filled in, and the other regiments the maximum killy Special and Rare, the obligatory mage, and then maybe a war machine or chaff fast cav to taste. That's it. The ONLY time people ran something other than that was to specifically be anti-meta to show not all people were running the meta lists. Tourneys told differently.
And as far as the magic being balanced at higher points? Once again, BS. It only seems balanced because once you have more bodies on the table the damage done by the spell seems less. Scalability issue isn't an intentional perk, it's bad game design.
Better core rules is not even subjective here. You took the slot system and breech loaded percentages into it, which I might add basically threw the limits of the slot system to the wind in the process. The magic system was simply deplorable, and random charge distance was the worst mechanic GW has ever come up with. ANY mechanic where Dwarfs could potentially roll enough to outmove Cavalry is a bad mechanic. It basically fostered to gunline or the midfield whales. No middle ground. 7th had its issues as well, it was the MSU swarm edition because of sheer number of attacks and being able to fight two combats a turn if you set things up right. The army books did most of the damage, but it started out with some issues from the get go.
As far as intent of the writers? It doesn't matter. If they write in rules that foster to a style of play that they claim wasn't their intent, then they didn't write the rules well enough, OR should have not put those rules in.
JustTony has been banging this anti-8th edition drum for more than 7 years now, so this kind of post is nothing new.
I think JustTonys's assertion that 8th edition is terrible is based on 2 games played just after it was launched right?
I find it hard to believe that JustTony followed the evolution of the 8th edition meta at the time, because I seem to remember during 8th edition he would continually post that he was sticking with 6th so his assertions that 8th edition is terribile (as far as I can tell), is just Theoryhammer.
When I played 8th, I never actually had a game that matched JustTony's description, even against Ogres. The majority of 8th edition battle report that I watched at the time on youtube (posted by Once Bitten, Mobius Primal, TMA Richards etc) did not match that description (Malorians probably did though).
I doubt JustTony watched many of these battle reports, or read many tournament reports, considering at the time JustTony was asserting that he would only play 6th as 8th was just not good enough. If JustTony was indeed watching and reading accounts of 8th edition at the time, I cannot fathom his purpose.
Based on Just Tony's post it looks to me as if he is basing his assertions of 8th on other peoples experiences (including tournaments), while basing his assertions of 6th on his own experiences. Including family time playing 6th edition with his brother, not a fair comparison.
In 8th the magic system is balanced at higher points because you have more bodies on the table, so the relative damage done by the spell is less.
The slot system was great for Vampires, Chaos, Lizardmen, or any army that had high leadership and powerful characters. It was a serious handicap for Goblins though or any low leadership army like Empire.
Random charges were great, it eliminated the 'perfect information' situation.
No it was not bad design that Dwarves could finally charge something. My earliest memories of Warhammer 5th edition is running around Dwarf units, isolating them, then combi charging. In 5th - 7th edition all I had to do was stay 7 inches away from a Dwarf unit then I was safe. In 8th I have to stay 12 inches away, but charging from that distance is risky (well, not with Cavalry), so there are levels of risk and reward. It was nice that Dwarves finally had an option other than Gunline.
I have enjoyed all editions of Warhammer for different reasons, therefore I am happy regardless of which edition someone wants to start with.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/05 09:47:48
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Charging Orc Boar Boy
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/05 11:28:25
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Keeper of the Flame
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StygianBeach wrote:JustTony has been banging this anti-8th edition drum for more than 7 years now, so this kind of post is nothing new.
You should check my join date to correlate with your estimate of time...
As I've strongly disliked what 8th turned the game into since it started, you could almost say that. Except for the fact that I walked away from gaming for about three of those years and sold most of my armies for both WFB and 40K. During that time, I was NOT posting about my dislike as I had walked away from the game and was willing to have a clean purge of every model and book I owned It would have been all of them, but my brother insisted that I hold onto at least two armies so we could play older editions if we saw fit. I am glad that I listened to him.
StygianBeach wrote:I think JustTonys's assertion that 8th edition is terrible is based on 2 games played just after it was launched right?
2 years worth of playing as well as following along as I was a Warseerite back then. I don't badger something without putting it through its paces.
StygianBeach wrote:I find it hard to believe that JustTony followed the evolution of the 8th edition meta at the time, because I seem to remember during 8th edition he would continually post that he was sticking with 6th so his assertions that 8th edition is terribile (as far as I can tell), is just Theoryhammer.
I stayed current with one army from each system: High Elves in 8th, and my Crimson Fists in 6th 40K. I disliked both of them enough that I was willing to quit gaming entirely. Not because of theoryhammer, but because of experience.
StygianBeach wrote:When I played 8th, I never actually had a game that matched JustTony's description, even against Ogres. The majority of 8th edition battle report that I watched at the time on youtube (posted by Once Bitten, Mobius Primal, TMA Richards etc) did not match that description (Malorians probably did though).
Games, tournies, batreps. Once again, since you were following me around to know what I was doing, you should know this. No? Then cut the assumptions.
StygianBeach wrote:I doubt JustTony watched many of these battle reports, or read many tournament reports, considering at the time JustTony was asserting that he would only play 6th as 8th was just not good enough. If JustTony was indeed watching and reading accounts of 8th edition at the time, I cannot fathom his purpose.
Once again, I stayed current so I could continue to get pick up games at my local shop. My move to 2nd shift which meant not being able to get there on GW night was my final reevaluation of why I was even playing anymore. It also energized me to look into older systems and why I'm firmly entrenched in the Classichammer movement. That should be easy enough to fathom.
StygianBeach wrote:Based on Just Tony's post it looks to me as if he is basing his assertions of 8th on other peoples experiences (including tournaments), while basing his assertions of 6th on his own experiences. Including family time playing 6th edition with his brother, not a fair comparison.
Wrong on both accounts. We covered my foray into 8th, so no need to rehash. 6th I was in from the launch. I actually ran demos at the FLGS I part timed at in Ft. Wayne, IN. I played games at least weekly, if not twice a week. I ran multiple armies, and wound up personally owning every army except for Tomb Kings (Proxied my VC to run them), Wood Elves (had access to another player's army) and Skaven (was building it, never got to run it). So your assumptions are wrong, and it looks to me you want to demonize me and delegitimize my point of view, simply because I don't think 8th was the super special bestest. Speaks volumes, actually.
StygianBeach wrote:In 8th the magic system is balanced at higher points because you have more bodies on the table, so the relative damage done by the spell is less.
THAT IS MY ENTIRE POINT!!!!!! The spells shouldn't have been that powerful from the get go. You shouldn't have to double or triple your army size so it feels like you're taking less damage. The game should be designed for scale. For instance, the pitiful output of 6th Ed. offensive magic was countered by you running more mages, which scaled up as points went up. OR the spell does D6 hits for ever 10 models, or something like that. D6 for anything under 20 man, 2D6 for anything 20-29. Makes it scalable other than massive units or 5,000 pt. games.
StygianBeach wrote:The slot system was great for Vampires, Chaos, Lizardmen, or any army that had high leadership and powerful characters. It was a serious handicap for Goblins though or any low leadership army like Empire.
Which instead get to swarm the enemy with cheap infantry in a game where rank bonus is one of the biggest decision makers in close combat, since damage output was not high in that edition. The slot system worked if you were willing to run Core. If you were a min/maxer who topped out on Lords, Specials, and Rares, and filled your character quota with mages, you did poorly as you didn't have the bodies to be consequential whereas even Orcs and Goblins could steamroller you in a tide of bodies. I've seen it happen, on the receiving AND on the giving end. Percentages didn't improve the situation.
StygianBeach wrote:Random charges were great, it eliminated the 'perfect information' situation.
Is this going to head back to the 1/8" shuffle argument? Or the carpenters made better players argument? The only time you had "perfect information" about distance in ANY game of Warhammer is if you have units directly on the deployment zone limits. Then you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are (typically but not always) 24" away.
StygianBeach wrote:No it was not bad design that Dwarves could finally charge something. My earliest memories of Warhammer 5th edition is running around Dwarf units, isolating them, then combi charging. In 5th - 7th edition all I had to do was stay 7 inches away from a Dwarf unit then I was safe. In 8th I have to stay 12 inches away, but charging from that distance is risky (well, not with Cavalry), so there are levels of risk and reward. It was nice that Dwarves finally had an option other than Gunline.
Shield wall was still an option as well. Dwarves had 3+ in hand to hand with T4. I baited charges with my Warriors, and always had something with great weapons staggered back to flank charge. Getting charged didn't mean the opponent got instant hits and kills. I've done the math and had real world experience with the survivability of Dwarves. Not being able to outcharge other armies was never an issue.
StygianBeach wrote:I have enjoyed all editions of Warhammer for different reasons, therefore I am happy regardless of which edition someone wants to start with.
I wished I could have. 5th was far too powergame-y, on the same level as 2nd Ed. 40K. 6th I genuinely enjoyed all except a few imbalanced books, but it wasn't bad enough to quit over. The paradigm shift in 7th wasn't flat out unenjoyable, but it took effort TO actually enjoy a game. 8th was like playing 5th again with bigger blocks, and brought the same lack of enjoyment. Judging by where WFB is currently, I wasn't the only one who didn't enjoy it. Automatically Appended Next Post: Moscha wrote:@Just Tony: Whoa, you are right concerning Spider riders,
ravening hordes still had them, but they were flushed down the toilet with the release of the O&G army book.
There were more than a few things that didn't make the jump from Ravening Hordes to the individual army books, and it wasn't the better for it. It's the other part of the reason I sing the accolades of playing with the Ravening Hordes list. Useful High Elf archers, just to start with...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/05 11:31:12
www.classichammer.com
For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/05 11:52:34
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Second Story Man
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StygianBeach wrote:
No it was not bad design that Dwarves could finally charge something. My earliest memories of Warhammer 5th edition is running around Dwarf units, isolating them, then combi charging. In 5th - 7th edition all I had to do was stay 7 inches away from a Dwarf unit then I was safe. In 8th I have to stay 12 inches away, but charging from that distance is risky (well, not with Cavalry), so there are levels of risk and reward. It was nice that Dwarves finally had an option other than Gunline.
Just no
As a player who played "melee only" dwarfs for 3 editions, 8th was the least one were "melee" was an option for dwarfs
of course your units could have those unlikely nasty 12" charges on a not so careful opponent placing his unit 11.5" away
but 8th in general forced dwarfs more into a gunline than any other edition before and pure melee was no option at all, especially with the tournament restrictions in german speaking countries around.
the only point of 8th was to go bigger and more random so that everyone had a chance to win no matter how good he/she were at playing the game.
Using 6th with Ravening Hordes, later Errata/ FAQs and some "house rules" adopted from 7th is the best legacy experience you can get
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Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/05 13:06:45
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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StygianBeach wrote:
Random charges were great, it eliminated the 'perfect information' situation.
No it was not bad design that Dwarves could finally charge something. My earliest memories of Warhammer 5th edition is running around Dwarf units, isolating them, then combi charging. In 5th - 7th edition all I had to do was stay 7 inches away from a Dwarf unit then I was safe. In 8th I have to stay 12 inches away, but charging from that distance is risky (well, not with Cavalry), so there are levels of risk and reward. It was nice that Dwarves finally had an option other than Gunline.
I haven't had the chance to go through any of the rulebooks in any great detail, but I would like to add that I absolutely hate the random charge mechanism in 40k. At least what it was in 6th which is what I last played. For me to roll two dice, regardless of what race I am playing, to determine how successful my charge is based on distance, in absence of any reference to leadership, is crappy design to me. I just cant see the justification for it. And certainly doesn't translate into the real world for me either. It makes all races equal in that regard, which is ridiculous as Tyranids would gleefully charge the Astra Militarum, while most sane Astra Militarum would most likely be reluctant to charge the Tyranids.
<queue in comments about a game involving chainswords and daemons>
I guess you could say the same about static distances too. But I still hate the randomness of distance. Fleet of foot in 40k was another rule that made me want to throw something against a wall.
But I think there should be a bit of a price to pay when playing Dwarves. We all know they aren't a fast moving race. So for an instance that they are able to outrace Elves for example, just seem a little ridiculous. Of course, you could forge a narrative that they could (Elves confused, wounded, etc), but I would prefer most times that they cannot. But I guess I can see people being bored with the static rates too, and why the randomness gets added in. Maybe the charge should be their move + a dice roll or something. That way faster races do have an edge, yet there is a little randomness.
But for me, I am not collecting large armies. I will never have mobs of 5 ranks in any army, and will play with the intent that there is little abstract stuff going on on my board, and everything is reasonable based on the number of minis I have and the distances involved. I am not sure what rulebook leans towards that view, but it will eventually be the one I settle on.
I also prefer an easy magic system that is NOT overpowering for my little games.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/05 15:16:59
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Charging Orc Boar Boy
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8th had that rule (Basic Movement plus 2D6 = Attack Range), so it was not totally random.
From what I read from your posts, start with 6th & ravening hordes, make your experiences.
Why? You already got the rules - and you already got enough minis for this system.
Then you can still decide if you want to try out a later version of the original rules like 7th or 8th, or even move on to a fanmade ruleset like 9th Age or Warhammer CE.
Edit: I will be helping a "newbie" getting started with Warhammer Fantasy this Saturday. We are having a small tournament in three weeks and I was trying to rally some more of our local club players who
have turned away from Fantasy after AoS. Unexpectedly, a younger player showed interest who had never before played WHF. He just knows it from playing Total War and by watching across the table once or twice in our club.
Another veteran is willing to lend him his dwarves for the tournament, which I think is a good army for beginners.
I built a list for him with the army creation tool, 1500 points total.
A thane, a runesmith, a master engineer, along with some clan warriors, longbeards, rangers, musketeers, and crossbows.
And some heavy artillery: a cannon, a flamethrower, an organ gun.
Pew Pew Pew. Almost like playing 40k.
It's never to late to start with Warhammer Fantasy!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/05 15:35:28
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ok I will start with 6th and work my way up.
For the record I do have Skull Pass and island of Blood now, so I do have the rulebooks for the last three editions. I just dont have a lot of time to go through all three at once to see all the little nuances.
Ravening Horders doesnt mention the Poisoned Wind Mortar. I don't see it in the Army Book I have which I think is 6th edition. Any idea what the point cost is? I imagine I have to rules from the Read Me First but no idea what its worth.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/05 17:08:13
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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Welcome to the club, I miss ranked combat. They didn't have to change much either; the biggest problem with 8th, imo is that it favored hoards too much. All they had to do was allow you to cancel steadfast if the target unit is engaged on multiple facings. That should give small, elite armies units a purpose, as in theory it would be easier to maneuver them into position for a nice flank, which would open up more tactical possibilities than "hurr durr, Ima toss down 50 stormvermin and faceroll everything"
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/05 17:08:23
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/06 00:31:53
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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Editions wars is WHFB.
The OP should get Ravening Hordes, 8th and T9A, the models are compatible throughout with exception of progression over time, and you can backfll in.
The good news is that a model valid in 6th is valid in the rest, getting the rulesets is the least part of the problem. Diversify the ways you can play and decide which to use as you please on the day.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/06 01:06:25
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Primus
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Just Tony wrote:
StygianBeach wrote:I have enjoyed all editions of Warhammer for different reasons, therefore I am happy regardless of which edition someone wants to start with.
I wished I could have. 5th was far too powergame-y, on the same level as 2nd Ed. 40K. 6th I genuinely enjoyed all except a few imbalanced books, but it wasn't bad enough to quit over. The paradigm shift in 7th wasn't flat out unenjoyable, but it took effort TO actually enjoy a game. 8th was like playing 5th again with bigger blocks, and brought the same lack of enjoyment. Judging by where WFB is currently, I wasn't the only one who didn't enjoy it.
Well, I remember you from Warseer posting that you had enough of 8th and was looking for old 6th edition stuff, so I sent you what I could and tried to follow how things were going with 6th edition.
Now that I know you played 8th for 2 years this may have happened 4 or 5 years ago because I now know it was clearly not 7 years ago, I am sorry I made the 2 games comment.
The switch from 7th to 8th saw a huge player backlash (on Warseer anyway), I was sceptical about 8th, but enjoyed it after I played it. There was lots of negativity towards 8th going on (much less than when AoS happend though) and I guess my memory of that blended into my memory of your posts. I would often look for your posts for something about interesting about 6th, but instead often read something negative about 8th. As you can imagine, your user name has stuck in my head.
kodos wrote:
Just no
As a player who played "melee only" dwarfs for 3 editions, 8th was the least one were "melee" was an option for dwarfs
of course your units could have those unlikely nasty 12" charges on a not so careful opponent placing his unit 11.5" away
but 8th in general forced dwarfs more into a gunline than any other edition before and pure melee was no option at all, especially with the tournament restrictions in german speaking countries around.
the only point of 8th was to go bigger and more random so that everyone had a chance to win no matter how good he/she were at playing the game.
I managed to surround and isolate any Dwarf army that tried to do Melee from 5th to 7th.
I have never played Warhammer in a serious Tournament though, so I would be interested in your recollections of how your Melee Dwarfs performed in the tournament scene in 8th.
While I agree that 8th was about going bigger, with the re-rolls 8th had on offer it was often less random. My general never lost his nerve and ran into a rock killing himself in 8th. A very funny and memorable moment in 7th, but also quite random.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/06 02:15:29
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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OKAY I just went thru the Island of Blood Read Me First book, and the minute rule book, and there is no rules on the minis! I just assumed they were included. I don’t think I am missing anything. I got this set sealed.
DID GW SERIOUSLY RELEASE THIS SET WITHOUT ANY RULES FOR THE MINIS INCLUDED or did I just get a crappy set?!?
I assumed it would be like Skull Pass, with some stats and rules for the minis.
WTF Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok after some more digging I see GW put out a weak PDF on their site for the rules. Wow I can’t believe they did this. Was this set popular back when it came out? Or is it the reason we’ve got Age of Sigmar? How the heck did new players not be completely confused by this?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/06 02:27:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/06 03:53:45
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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High Elf army book ans Skaven army book.
Island of Blood is 8th, to play 8th you need the 8th edition high elf book and the 7th Skaven book as there was no 8th edition for that faction.
To play 6th with Ravening Hordes, just pick up Ravening hordes. Every faction has a 6th edition army book except Chaos Dwarfs.
Dogs of War was entirely discontinued after 5th..
6th edition is the last Bretonnian army book, 7th has the last Skaven and Beastmen, 8th has all the rest and return of Chaos Dwarves through forgeworld.
To play the right game you need the right army book.
The only way to have a one size fits all is to download 9th Age or a similar continuince product or use Ravening Hordes.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/06 05:32:56
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Second Story Man
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6th Edition list was in Warhammer Chronicles
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Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/04/06 05:41:30
Subject: Well I have caught the Warhammer Fantasy bug
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Keeper of the Flame
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KTG17 wrote:Ok I will start with 6th and work my way up.
For the record I do have Skull Pass and island of Blood now, so I do have the rulebooks for the last three editions. I just dont have a lot of time to go through all three at once to see all the little nuances.
Ravening Horders doesnt mention the Poisoned Wind Mortar. I don't see it in the Army Book I have which I think is 6th edition. Any idea what the point cost is? I imagine I have to rules from the Read Me First but no idea what its worth.
Starting with 6th is also a bit smarter as it's the basis for both editions that follow it. It gives you a baseline. Sort of like learning Magic: The Gathering. Learn the fundamentals before getting overloaded with all the New Shiny Rules ( TM) that were added later. Once you understand how the game works, how the stack works, then you can better understand how later special rules work within those rules. WFB is the same scenario.
StygianBeach wrote: Just Tony wrote:
StygianBeach wrote:I have enjoyed all editions of Warhammer for different reasons, therefore I am happy regardless of which edition someone wants to start with.
I wished I could have. 5th was far too powergame-y, on the same level as 2nd Ed. 40K. 6th I genuinely enjoyed all except a few imbalanced books, but it wasn't bad enough to quit over. The paradigm shift in 7th wasn't flat out unenjoyable, but it took effort TO actually enjoy a game. 8th was like playing 5th again with bigger blocks, and brought the same lack of enjoyment. Judging by where WFB is currently, I wasn't the only one who didn't enjoy it.
Well, I remember you from Warseer posting that you had enough of 8th and was looking for old 6th edition stuff, so I sent you what I could and tried to follow how things were going with 6th edition.
Now that I know you played 8th for 2 years this may have happened 4 or 5 years ago because I now know it was clearly not 7 years ago, I am sorry I made the 2 games comment.
The switch from 7th to 8th saw a huge player backlash (on Warseer anyway), I was sceptical about 8th, but enjoyed it after I played it. There was lots of negativity towards 8th going on (much less than when AoS happend though) and I guess my memory of that blended into my memory of your posts. I would often look for your posts for something about interesting about 6th, but instead often read something negative about 8th. As you can imagine, your user name has stuck in my head.
The only time I posted along those lines at Warseer was during the "Hate AOS/Find alternatives" phase. That's also the period I got banned because of a few posters' "alternative stats" regarding the local area, and to be frank my own lack of diplomacy in dealing with those people. Most of them are banned as well, so I don't blame myself wholly.
To clarify, you are the one that got me some PDFs of books, correct? If so, I'm definitely grateful as it got the classichammer part of my local scene (small group with an even smaller subset, admittedly. But enough FLGS's that are willing to host Classichammer events that it may wind up growing) up and running. Now, if you're the one that had the PDF of the Lore of Death cards that were released as a supplement? I may be prepared to perform acts of gratitude in exchange for that PDF again.
KTG17 wrote:OKAY I just went thru the Island of Blood Read Me First book, and the minute rule book, and there is no rules on the minis! I just assumed they were included. I don’t think I am missing anything. I got this set sealed.
DID GW SERIOUSLY RELEASE THIS SET WITHOUT ANY RULES FOR THE MINIS INCLUDED or did I just get a crappy set?!?
I assumed it would be like Skull Pass, with some stats and rules for the minis.
WTF
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok after some more digging I see GW put out a weak PDF on their site for the rules. Wow I can’t believe they did this. Was this set popular back when it came out? Or is it the reason we’ve got Age of Sigmar? How the heck did new players not be completely confused by this?
There were no rules for the Mortar, and what I plan on doing once I finally manage to get the multiple copies of that boxed set that I want is to customize those into Jezzails. You can pretty much use them as any weapons team stand in when it comes down to it, but I refuse to get pewter or Failcast Jezzail teams.
Automatically Appended Next Post: kodos wrote:
6th Edition list was in Warhammer Chronicles
Damn, beat me to the draw. The Regiments of Renown were also in Warhammer Annual/Chronicles. All three of those books are worth owning.
That was the other great part of 6th, EVERY army had at least a list, if not a complete army book. The edition was complete.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/06 05:45:47
www.classichammer.com
For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming
Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
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