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I'm currently trying to build the unsold remnants of my 7th Edition armies into 750pts army lists I can loan to friends for pick-up games. Problem is, 8th Edition is a massive sideways step away from the 40k I'm used to, and as a result I'm not sure what works anymore.

These are the 8th Ed nuggets of wisdom I've managed to pick up so far, presented for the perusal and critique of Dakka:

- Infantry hordes are all the rage thanks to the changes to WS and damage rolls.
- Restrictions have been lifted on shooting. Moving Heavy Weapon dudes means -1 to hit, everyone can shoot with every weapon they have, squads can split fire.
- Close combat restrictions have been lifted. Your units can charge anyone at any time, and only Advancing or Falling Back prevents assault moves.
- Thanks to the above, transport vehicles are simultaneously more important (to protect against assaults) and less resilient & reliable than they have been since 5th Ed.
- My Immolators and Fire Prisms can charge people and can be locked in close combat, which is mental.
- Smite is delicious, but the Psychic phase is less decisive than it was in 7th.
- Hero-hammer is upon us; Characters are more important than ever whilst also being easier to protect and more effective on the mat.
- Strategems are important. Effective lists need to maximise Command Points.
- Army Traits are important so stop forgetting to use them.

Does that sound about right? If not please jump in and let me know what I'm getting wrong.

If anyone has army building advice specific to the factions I'm trying to rebuild I'd appreciate that too. My Sisters are currently being worked on, to be followed shortly by my Eldar (extra vowels not included), Daemons, Genestealer Cults and Space Wolves. If there's time I'd like to rebuild my Inquisition/ GK army (dual Land Raiders ahoy!), but if they suck too hard I'll just leave them in the box.

Thanks, Dakka!

Wouldn't agree on the psychic phase. Powers are still powerful and far more easy to get off(actually I don't even remember any key failures) and you get tons more off if you want than ever.

tneva82 wrote:
Wouldn't agree on the psychic phase. Powers are still powerful and far more easy to get off(actually I don't even remember any key failures) and you get tons more off if you want than ever.

Fair enough.

I know Summoning has changed, though - which is fair enough because it was pretty beardy in 7th, but it makes me wonder how I'm going to rebuild my GSC without it. They've lost both their Decurion and their Psychic Summons, which were the primary tools the army needed to function in 7th.

BBAP wrote:
- Infantry hordes are all the rage thanks to the changes to WS and damage rolls.

I don't think it is so much the changes to WS and damage as much as the new AP system combined with the removal of templates. The current AP system is much more in favor of high wound counts over quality armor since the save is reduced by AP now instead of being automatically pierced or deflected. Most basic anti-infantry weapons also no longer have an AP value, so poor save infantry are comparatively more durable than they where in the past. As for the loss of templates, a lot of blast and flamer weapons now do D3 to D6 hits instead of prior where a poorly spaced blob could easily get 10+ hits, which leads to less overall casualties and another relative boost to durability.

BBAP wrote:
- Thanks to the above, transport vehicles are simultaneously more important (to protect against assaults) and less resilient & reliable than they have been since 5th Ed.

They are actually quite a bit more durable than they were in 7th against the high rate of fire/mid strength guns that dominated those editions, but dedicated anti-armor also got quite a bit stronger since most now do multiple points of damage per shot. In general transports have been more useful to assault-centric armies than shooting ones, as all but a handful of vehicles lost their firing ports but units can charge after disembarking now. Also incidentally, transports are very good for soaking overwatch shots.

Also worth noting, gun platform vehicles got quite a bit better since they have no limits on the amount of weaponry they can shoot after moving (just suffer penalty to hit as normal) and can split fire now.

BBAP wrote:
- My Immolators and Fire Prisms can charge people and can be locked in close combat, which is mental.

To an extent they can, but it is very hard to get anything truly locked down in 8th as the target has to be completely surrounded to prevent a withdrawal. In the case of the Fire Prism it is more or less impossible to lock down, as it's FLY keyword allows it to move over enemy models and still shoot after leaving combat (most units cannot do so).

BBAP wrote:
- Hero-hammer is upon us; Characters are more important than ever whilst also being easier to protect and more effective on the mat.

I'm not sure I agree. Characters are important in the sense that most have some sort of force multiplier effect but they are comparatively easier to kill than in prior editions. "Look Out Sir!" was removed outside of a handful of bodyguard squads (and GSC infantry) and the introduction of multiple damage weaponry and mortal wounds mitigate a lot of the superior defenses that defined a lot of the prior edition characters.

BBAP wrote:
If anyone has army building advice specific to the factions I'm trying to rebuild I'd appreciate that too. My Sisters are currently being worked on, to be followed shortly by my Eldar (extra vowels not included), Daemons, Genestealer Cults and Space Wolves. If there's time I'd like to rebuild my Inquisition/ GK army (dual Land Raiders ahoy!), but if they suck too hard I'll just leave them in the box.

Can check here for general discussions on GSC in 8th if it helps. Page 6-7 starts the post-chapter approved discussions, as GSC actually got a fair amount from it.

I played Hybrid-horde Decurion GSC in 7th and I don't recall being overly put out by Blasts or Templates - I had a tonne of min-sized squads so I could position them to minimise the impact of such things. Massed small arms and overlong combats tended to chew up my dudes quite nicely though, the former of which got a boost from the changes to Template and Blast weapons (and a knock from the change to AP) while the latter seems more likely in a world of set WS values (as opposed to comparative ones).

Thanks for the link, I'll give it a look-over. My biggest problem with GSC really is the apparent loss of RttS, which was the army's primary source of mobility and resilience. Unless there have been sweeping changes to the resilience and speed of standard GSC units (and I don't see any) then I'm not sure how the army copes with this removal.

A couple of basic generic tips;

- Identify the efficient units & field those (/likewise avoid fielding too many/any inefficient units)
- Identify efficient sources of massed firepower. Lots of str 4 (assuming the same AP) is just-as effective as str6 vs. general T7 tanks. Str5 is good vs. the common T4 & for wounding (virtually) all other units you'll see on a 5+ or better. This is for massed shooting, do the cost-per-shot and try and compare it to other armies or other units within the army.
- As above, with high AP (not as relevant), and with anti-tank (i.e. lots of damage per shot.. or per volley of whichever gun).. see below for more on dedicated anti tank.
- Size threshold; Whilst some units are great, they may require a large initial threshold - be wary, especially at smaller point games (it is fun to have more units/dudes to play with)
- 'Dedicated anti-tank' (**that doesn't have the FLY keyword) can simply be a unit that can reliably charge said tank. Besides being 100% wrapped, (virtually) all units can fall back but doing so prevents them from shooting**, you can view this can neutering a tank for a turn. So you can blow a hole through it or simply charge it every turn (you have options)
- Following on from the above; the reserve also needs to be considered; having lots of juciy units (tanks, gun bugs, devastator marines, etc) that can easily be charged is a bad idea; either keep them mobile or/and put some dudes between your lovely shooty units and the opponents choppy units. Nuff said.
- 'Dedicated anti-tank mk.2' don't be put off by high wound & toughness counts of vehicles; by just knocking it down a wound profile or two (i.e. 25-75% wounds) can effectively cripple its potential to move/deal damage.
- Mobility is key. Fast things are fantastic. Redeploying units are amazing. 'Deep-striking' units are just amaze-balls (have I made my point?)
- Split fire is great but it can be a trap - it is still important to focus-fire units, killing or crippling a single unit is (as ever) much better than lightly wounding a few units.
- Did I mention mobility is really useful?

 BBAP wrote:
I played Hybrid-horde Decurion GSC in 7th and I don't recall being overly put out by Blasts or Templates - I had a tonne of min-sized squads so I could position them to minimise the impact of such things. Massed small arms and overlong combats tended to chew up my dudes quite nicely though, the former of which got a boost from the changes to Template and Blast weapons (and a knock from the change to AP) while the latter seems more likely in a world of set WS values (as opposed to comparative ones).

Oops. I was thinking more of the traditional "horde" units like Guardsmen or Ork Boyz with the template commentary. The new rules are indeed a bit harsher for smaller squads but conversely most of the old flamer weapons that would roast a hybrid squad now allow saves and can't overwatch if the squad is outside of the weapon's maximum range.

I think the new WS system was a net-gain for the GSC army. Most of their units now hit on a 3+ instead of a 4+ or worse and the Primus' aura increases that to a 2+. The new initiative system also is a huge boon, as the fragile assault troops now almost always get to swing first when they charge a target instead of having to wait their turn (especially for the old I1 weapons - Aberrants and special weapon Acolytes especially like the change).

 BBAP wrote:

My biggest problem with GSC really is the apparent loss of RttS, which was the army's primary source of mobility and resilience. Unless there have been sweeping changes to the resilience and speed of standard GSC units (and I don't see any) then I'm not sure how the army copes with this removal.

They brought back Return to Shadows and the Subterrain Uprising formation bonus as Stratagems in Chapter Approved. Return to Shadows is worse than it used to be since the number of times it can be used is finite, but it now triggers at the end of the movement phase so it is harder for enemies to prevent a unit from leaving by proximity (basically requires being locked in combat to deny). The Subterrain Uprising bonus (now called Meticulous Uprising) is strictly better though, as it can be applied to any unit and the Primus gained the ability to reroll the ambush dice for himself and accompanying unit, so they get 3 dice to pick from + reroll instead of just 3 dice. I imagine a lot of the other shenanigans will return as stratagems in the same manner when the Codex releases.

As for speed, Genestealers and the Patriarch both gained 8'' base movement and the ability to run and charge, so they are significantly faster than before. Also the transports are relatively more durable than they used to be (Rockgrinder/Chimera are T7 10 wounds, Goliath Truck is T6 10 wounds - both Goliaths now have a 6+ FNP ability) so mechanized troops are more viable.

 BBAP wrote:

Thanks for the link, I'll give it a look-over.

Hope it proves useful! I am not especially knowledgeable regarding your other armies, so I'll leave you with these:

Space Wolves Tactics
Eldar Tactics
Daemon Tactics

Razerous wrote:A couple of basic generic tips;

Thanks, brah. Generic perhaps but still useful - it's nice to know things haven't changed overmuch, especially regarding mobility.

Strat_N8 wrote:I think the new WS system was a net-gain for the GSC army. Most of their units now hit on a 3+ instead of a 4+ or worse and the Primus' aura increases that to a 2+. The new initiative system also is a huge boon, as the fragile assault troops now almost always get to swing first when they charge a target instead of having to wait their turn (especially for the old I1 weapons - Aberrants and special weapon Acolytes especially like the change).

They brought back Return to Shadows and the Subterrain Uprising formation bonus as Stratagems in Chapter Approved. Return to Shadows is worse than it used to be since the number of times it can be used is finite, but it now triggers at the end of the movement phase so it is harder for enemies to prevent a unit from leaving by proximity (basically requires being locked in combat to deny). The Subterrain Uprising bonus (now called Meticulous Uprising) is strictly better though, as it can be applied to any unit and the Primus gained the ability to reroll the ambush dice for himself and accompanying unit, so they get 3 dice to pick from + reroll instead of just 3 dice. I imagine a lot of the other shenanigans will return as stratagems in the same manner when the Codex releases.

As for speed, Genestealers and the Patriarch both gained 8'' base movement and the ability to run and charge, so they are significantly faster than before. Also the transports are relatively more durable than they used to be (Rockgrinder/Chimera are T7 10 wounds, Goliath Truck is T6 10 wounds - both Goliaths now have a 6+ FNP ability) so mechanized troops are more viable.

Thanks again! I've had a bit more time to go over the Index properly, and between that and the Tactica I'm not quite so pessimistic about the army now. Seems to play similarly, but no more using RttS as a crutch I guess - which sucks, but hey. 8" Genestealers are pretty nasty too.

Intrigued by the vehicles - they were a massivge liability in 7th and I never bothered with them, but if they're worth considering now that's... interesting. Might take me a while to adjust to the new GSC but I'm going to try to throw a list together, I think.

You need the ability to melt cheap screening units so your deep-strikers are effective.