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So one of the most common criticisms of the FAQ is that they buffed stationary gunlines too much. But while that point has been trotted out, I haven't actually seen people state what they consider a gunline. I'm not disagreeing with the analysis, but I am curious to see what kind of gunlines people are imaging, and how they were buffed specifically by the FAQ. So, generally speaking and ignoring outliers, troops often have a 24" range on their rapid-fire weapons. 24" however does not seem like something that would allow you to 'shoot from one DZ to another one turn 1'. Additionally, most troop dakka is rapid-fire, not assault, so (guard for example) has an effective range of 30" on their lasguns, which, again, doesn't seem like the super-punishing turn 1 shooting people keep mentioning.

Are there other examples? I'm not saying that 'NO WAY GUNLINES WEREN'T BUFFED GUYS' but I am geniunely curious as to what sort of gunline builds specifically have been buffed, with movement and range examples.

Imperial Guard infantry does not provide the majority of the punch of an imperial guard gunline. Typically, each infantry squad provides one (significantly buffed) lascannon shot, and the primary role of the lasgun-toting troops is to stop fast assault units from getting to the real damage dealers: The Catachan mortars and basilisks. Basilisks (which you can still have 9 of) and mortars (admittedly now limited to 9 but you can take more via infantry squads) deal more damage per point vs tanks/lasguns at 36" and longer range than pretty much anything in the game, from out of LOS, especially with catachan buffs (Harker and Catachan tactic).

The only thing that is a nerf to that build is the 3-unit limit, keeping the army to 3 mortars and forcing them to take wyverns, scatter the mortars into the infantry squads, and/or mix in some vultures/leman russ punishers, which have also got a threat range of 30".

I don't think it's much of a stretch to envision that being the primary gunline people are concerned with. Functionally unlimited command points because even with highlander detachments it can ding Battalion+Brigade effortlessly, pretty universal 30" threat range or higher, ignores LOS, rerolls number of shots, rerolls 1s to hit on anything you can clump around harker, plus orders, functionally ignores LD and even if you get them into combat, they're S4 and can use their magical superpower where they can become khorne bezerkers or move as fast as swarmlord buffed genestealers because someone told them to.

Mortars are still str 4 ap 0 so quick mathhammering tells me that (for example) my wave serpents won't even be scratched. Massed str 4 fire just doesn't sound that intimidating. Maybe if I had a bunch of exposed guys, but if I expect a lot of artillery, then my dudes are gonna start embarked in metal boxes (or wraithbone boxes) so avoid that particular scenario.

I feel like it's also worth noting that any kind of missions with turn by turn scoring that forces you to go out and do stuff (Maelstrom etc) makes these lists less effective.

Agreed.

"Gunline" is a mythical boogieman that doesn't win games in the current meta, at least in my opinion.

quentra wrote:
Mortars are still str 4 ap 0 so quick mathhammering tells me that (for example) my wave serpents won't even be scratched. Massed str 4 fire just doesn't sound that intimidating. Maybe if I had a bunch of exposed guys, but if I expect a lot of artillery, then my dudes are gonna start embarked in metal boxes (or wraithbone boxes) so avoid that particular scenario.

You might be shocked to learn that the mortars are not, in fact, what would be shooting your wave serpents. That would be the basilisks (2d6 take the highest with one optional re-roll shots, S9 AP-3 Dd3), the lascannons, and the Manticores (2D6 shots with one optional reroll, S10 Ap-2 Dd3). All of these will usually be rerolling 1s to hit.


Wave Serpents are probably the most durable vehicles in the game against standard guard gunline vehicles, though, considering the -1 to hit and the serpent shields high effectiveness vs Dd3 weaponry. Saying that wave serpents will be fine against everything but the lascannons is about equivalent to saying that lasgun guardsmen with FRFSRF are perfectly balanced because they are terrible at killing warlord titans.

the_scotsman wrote:

quentra wrote:
Mortars are still str 4 ap 0 so quick mathhammering tells me that (for example) my wave serpents won't even be scratched. Massed str 4 fire just doesn't sound that intimidating. Maybe if I had a bunch of exposed guys, but if I expect a lot of artillery, then my dudes are gonna start embarked in metal boxes (or wraithbone boxes) so avoid that particular scenario.

You might be shocked to learn that the mortars are not, in fact, what would be shooting your wave serpents. That would be the basilisks (2d6 take the highest with one optional re-roll shots, S9 AP-3 Dd3), the lascannons, and the Manticores (2D6 shots with one optional reroll, S10 Ap-2 Dd3). All of these will usually be rerolling 1s to hit.


Wave Serpents are probably the most durable vehicles in the game against standard guard gunline vehicles, though, considering the -1 to hit and the serpent shields high effectiveness vs Dd3 weaponry. Saying that wave serpents will be fine against everything but the lascannons is about equivalent to saying that lasgun guardsmen with FRFSRF are perfectly balanced because they are terrible at killing warlord titans.

I have had a single Malcador, with no damage mitigation of any kind, weather the firepower of a single Manticore for an entire game until it ran out of rockets. This tells me a Land Raider could do the same.

Manticores are not anti-tank weapons.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

quentra wrote:
Mortars are still str 4 ap 0 so quick mathhammering tells me that (for example) my wave serpents won't even be scratched. Massed str 4 fire just doesn't sound that intimidating. Maybe if I had a bunch of exposed guys, but if I expect a lot of artillery, then my dudes are gonna start embarked in metal boxes (or wraithbone boxes) so avoid that particular scenario.

You might be shocked to learn that the mortars are not, in fact, what would be shooting your wave serpents. That would be the basilisks (2d6 take the highest with one optional re-roll shots, S9 AP-3 Dd3), the lascannons, and the Manticores (2D6 shots with one optional reroll, S10 Ap-2 Dd3). All of these will usually be rerolling 1s to hit.


Wave Serpents are probably the most durable vehicles in the game against standard guard gunline vehicles, though, considering the -1 to hit and the serpent shields high effectiveness vs Dd3 weaponry. Saying that wave serpents will be fine against everything but the lascannons is about equivalent to saying that lasgun guardsmen with FRFSRF are perfectly balanced because they are terrible at killing warlord titans.

I have had a single Malcador, with no damage mitigation of any kind, weather the firepower of a single Manticore for an entire game until it ran out of rockets. This tells me a Land Raider could do the same.

Manticores are not anti-tank weapons.

unbuffed Catachan Manticores and Basilisks kill about half their points worth of land raider every turn (2.2 damage on average for the 'lisk and just about 3 damage for the manticore.) Slightly worse for the Malcador, which is about as tough but a good deal less expensive. By comparison, a lascannon toted by a guardsman has about a 75% points return per turn of unbuffed shooting vs the land raider. Considering the guardsman is a guardsman and the basilisks are tanks/also limited to 9 with the most recent FAQ thanks to squadrons, Basilisks would seem to be pretty darn efficient anti heavy tank units. Manticores biggest limitation is the lack of squadrons, IMO, because pound for pound they're pretty identical to the basilisks against 99% of the targets in the game. They get slightly more out of the catachan trait, that's about it.

Thinking big picture, a 50% points return on a nigh infinite range ignore-LOS gunline unit is absurd. Before buffs, too. More terrain is an advantage to them, not a disadvantage, because if you can't spot them with your own shooting units you're in a whole mess of trouble.

Think about it this way: Lets say I took an ork Mek-mob list of walkers. Is there any conceivable way I could come to grips with a guard artillery gunline whose anti-tank units kill half their points worth of armor in a turn? Best case I'd be tabled turn 2.

I have had a single Malcador, with no damage mitigation of any kind, weather the firepower of a single Manticore for an entire game until it ran out of rockets. This tells me a Land Raider could do the same.

Manticores are not anti-tank weapons.

Yeah but we're not talking a single manticore here. We're saying that each turn, the guard player get 9 X 4 (2D6 pick highest) so 36 S9, AP-3, Dam3, re-roll to hit, shots. That's enough to clear any vehicule, terminator squad, custodes squad, any infantry or vehicule you might like, and that's before the rest of the army get's to shoot. They don't need LoS, and have pretty much infinite range, so there's nothing you can do to counter play that, and they'll be protected by a enormous bubblewrap that will take minimum 1 turn to get to, and they'll probably themselves be out of LoS.
Seriously, if you've never faced a competitive IG army like that, it's hard to imagine, but as a chaos + necron player, there's nothing I could even do in those games.

The counter to that list was pretty much the poxwalker farm, where to high power shots were wasted on cultist and poxwalker, and if the poxwalker wave could reach melee with the guardsman they basically won by doubling or tripling in size. But that's been nerf. The other counter was BA massive deepstrike that arrive turn 1 before the guard had time to deploy everywhere on the map, but that's been nerfed. The other thing that was kinda good agaisnt this, eldar dark reaper spam, that survived because of good -1 to hit bonus that stacked and could target the manticore / basilisk, was also nerfed (argually, not that much, and could still pose a threat to a IIG list).

That's why I think we just made an environement where IG gunline will dominate. It's like playing rock paper scissor, but scissor is out of the game, so you either play rock, or paper.

Another couple gunlines:
Space marines, a block surrounding Guilliman for re-roll hits and wounds.
Eldar can play a gunline as well utilizing their dark reapers and pulse lasers.
Tau do a gunline that is pretty resistant to assault already due to their overwatch abilities.

VoidSempai wrote:


Yeah but we're not talking a single manticore here. We're saying that each turn, the guard player get 9 X 4 (2D6 pick highest) so 36 S9, AP-3, Dam3, re-roll to hit, shots.

That's 1215 points.

Edit: 1305 - forgot the CA bump.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"Gunline" is a mythical boogieman that doesn't win games in the current meta, at least in my opinion.

I definitely agree, but it's also worth considering that the "current meta" has just radically changed. Previously, the mythical "static gunlines" couldn't compete, because they'd get smashed to bits by deepstriking armies... now, maybe not so much?

That said, I think that while we might see a lot more people attempting to make gunlines work competitively, truly static armies will never be very successful unless the victory conditions have nothing to do with capturing objectives. Personally, I like to run a "rolling gunline", a line of tanks that trundle across the board at half pace so I can maintain firepower while still moving to control territory. Getting locked into your deployment zone means always going for the tabling victory, and even the scariest gunlines will struggle to achieve that consistently.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

VoidSempai wrote:


Yeah but we're not talking a single manticore here. We're saying that each turn, the guard player get 9 X 4 (2D6 pick highest) so 36 S9, AP-3, Dam3, re-roll to hit, shots.

That's 1215 points.

Edit: 1305 - forgot the CA bump.

Yes, I know, but guard do 2 things really well. Cheap infantry, and heavy tank.
on a 2000 list, that still leaves around 700 points, or around 130 guardsman/ conscript if you really want it, for infantry that can contest objective, gain ground, screen the tanks, etc. And it is a superb example of a skew list. There's not a lot you can do against it. I'm not saying it's a list that'll win tournament, but it's going to absolutly demolish any casual / fluffy list, while not being impeded by the FAQ in any way.

VoidSempai wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

VoidSempai wrote:


Yeah but we're not talking a single manticore here. We're saying that each turn, the guard player get 9 X 4 (2D6 pick highest) so 36 S9, AP-3, Dam3, re-roll to hit, shots.

That's 1215 points.

Edit: 1305 - forgot the CA bump.

Yes, I know, but guard do 2 things really well. Cheap infantry, and heavy tank.
on a 2000 list, that still leaves around 700 points, or around 130 guardsman/ conscript if you really want it, for infantry that can contest objective, gain ground, screen the tanks, etc. And it is a superb example of a skew list. There's not a lot you can do against it. I'm not saying it's a list that'll win tournament, but it's going to absolutly demolish any casual / fluffy list, while not being impeded by the FAQ in any way.

Oh for sure it's potentially problematic. IG has a ton of cheap tools. There are lists that will be non-skew that can take it though. A bloodthirster with 4++/6+++ can take 1.5 volleys from 9 manticores (at 4.8 shots each) and by turn 2 the rest of the 1600 points will be on you.

Gunline types:

1) IG Artillery
2) Eldar Dark Reapers
3) Tau Suits
4) RGG: Rowboat Girlyman's Gunline.

Less popular, but still notable gunlines
5) IG Tanks. Either Lemun Russes or Baneblades.
6) Tyranid Hive Guard / Biovores (points hike) / Exocrines (less often) / Tyrannofexes (even less often)
7) Dark Angel Hell Blasters
8) Storm Raven / Storm Talon / other fliers. This was the Fire Raptor gunline, but Fire Raptors took a pretty big points bump in the FAQ.

Partial Gunlines that only make up a portion of an army:
7) Eldar Fire prisms / Space Marine Preds

There are a few more even less common builds.

Some people (ie. Reece from FLG) like to engage in passionate semantic arguments about the exact definition of a gunline. Basically the argument can be summarized "If it sometimes moves, it isn't a gunline". But the commonly understood definition familiar to most 40k players is probably any army that does the majority of it's damage output from long range (generally more than 24"). Because people are so passionate about the semantics, and it can derail the discussion, it might be easier to call them "Long Range Firepower Armies"

Also, it's important to note that Gunlines aren't generally pure. An IG artillery gunline usually has 60-120 infantry in it. A Tyranid Hive Guard gunline frequently includes 2 large squads of gants and some Hive Tyrants. Still, to be reasonably called a gunline, they've got to expect a majoirty of their damage from long range firepower units.

Eldar Dark Reaper gunlines are typically a 1-2 punch. Shining spears deny their opponent's shooting while Dark Reapers put out the damage. It's extra frustrating to play against because Dark Reapers can move and shoot, don't take penalties (suck it fliers), interceptor any deep strikers (Strategem), Shoot Twice (psychic power), reroll (psychic power or WL trait), can start in extremely durable transports (Wave Serpents) or deep strike (strategem), and can leave combat and still shoot (Strategem). Also, they don't give up points in ITC champs missions. Look at most of the lists in the top 8 at LVO for examples.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Agreed.

"Gunline" is a mythical boogieman that doesn't win games in the current meta, at least in my opinion.

There is nothing mythical about it. What meta are you talking about? You can't go to a tournament that has 12+ people and not see half of the lists featuring guard heavily. And it's not exactly a secret what they're going to do, and it still wins. Tiny variations on the same netlist. And that netlist just got a LOT better with this FAQ.

Reading through this thread and admech is never mentioned as a gunline army when we almost exclusively shoot. I think a nerf to shooting isn't the answer after the FAQ but a general nerf/ point increase on AM.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

quentra wrote:
Mortars are still str 4 ap 0 so quick mathhammering tells me that (for example) my wave serpents won't even be scratched. Massed str 4 fire just doesn't sound that intimidating. Maybe if I had a bunch of exposed guys, but if I expect a lot of artillery, then my dudes are gonna start embarked in metal boxes (or wraithbone boxes) so avoid that particular scenario.

You might be shocked to learn that the mortars are not, in fact, what would be shooting your wave serpents. That would be the basilisks (2d6 take the highest with one optional re-roll shots, S9 AP-3 Dd3), the lascannons, and the Manticores (2D6 shots with one optional reroll, S10 Ap-2 Dd3). All of these will usually be rerolling 1s to hit.


Wave Serpents are probably the most durable vehicles in the game against standard guard gunline vehicles, though, considering the -1 to hit and the serpent shields high effectiveness vs Dd3 weaponry. Saying that wave serpents will be fine against everything but the lascannons is about equivalent to saying that lasgun guardsmen with FRFSRF are perfectly balanced because they are terrible at killing warlord titans.

I have had a single Malcador, with no damage mitigation of any kind, weather the firepower of a single Manticore for an entire game until it ran out of rockets. This tells me a Land Raider could do the same.

Manticores are not anti-tank weapons.

And I've had a single Manticore with no faction trait or other buffs destroy Stormsurge in one round of shooting. Makes them sound like pretty anti-tank weapons to me.

And I've had a Serpent reduce a Land Raider to 1 HP in one round of shooting.

Serpents aren't necessarily a great anti-tank.

There are a lot of counters to gunlines, those same 9 manticores for example, even if they were firing for 4 turns straight with catachan doctrine at a ravenguard MEQ list, would total 40 MEQs killed before running out of ammo.

And that is with the other list being literally dummy targets!

Bharring wrote:
And I've had a Serpent reduce a Land Raider to 1 HP in one round of shooting.

Serpents aren't necessarily a great anti-tank.

My point was that anecdotes don't really serve to add a whole lot, they're heavily skewed by chance.

But Heavy 2D6 S10/AP-2/Dd3 firing from outside of line of sight sounds like pretty good anti-tank to me. Sure, it'd be more at home killing elite infantry (then again, so is everything in this edition), but you can happily point it at a tank and get what you pay for and more.