Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Specifically in tournament play, would it be allowed yo use Eldrad or Lilith in place of a farseer or a succubus. An example of this would be not liking the succubus model so using Lilith, or having a Lilith model and not a succubus model, but wanting to play a succubus model (dont have the points for Lilith). This would take into account not using two Lilith models (one as Lilith and one as a succubus) as I could see how this might be confusing unless there was a noticeable difference between the two

Seeing as both models cost roughly the same, I feel it may be more useful to get the unique character.

Also, how do tournaments feel about conversions?

For tournament use it will come down to the organisers' decision. They're hardly going to care what folks on an internet forum have to say if they have a rule disallowing proxies in their tournament.

Fair comment haha, was asking more in a general regard to what people have experienced. I always try to play somewhat to tournament standards

I don't think any reasonable opponent would have an issue, provided it's obvious and a reasonable representation of the datasheet and wargear.

Reasonable proxying for thematic or rule of cool purposes generally gets a favourable response, I find; it's repeat proxying because you're too lazy to buy the actual models, or proxying for advantage, that I think are really looked down on.

From a rules standpoint it's perfectly fine to do. There is no requirement to use the "correct" model to represent a datasheet, only that it is a Citadel model. As far as the rules are concerned you can use a gretchin to represent an Imperial Knight.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
From a rules standpoint it's perfectly fine to do. There is no requirement to use the "correct" model to represent a datasheet, only that it is a Citadel model. As far as the rules are concerned you can use a gretchin to represent an Imperial Knight.

By RAW, doesn't the flowchart force you to use the proper datasheet for your model if it has one?

 Jidmah wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
From a rules standpoint it's perfectly fine to do. There is no requirement to use the "correct" model to represent a datasheet, only that it is a Citadel model. As far as the rules are concerned you can use a gretchin to represent an Imperial Knight.

By RAW, doesn't the flowchart force you to use the proper datasheet for your model if it has one?

Only for index models.

How so? It clearly states that you must use the index for gretchin, so you cannot use the Imperial Knight datasheet.

It also clearly says that you need to use the Eldrad datasheet from the Eldar codex for your Eldrad model.

Now, if you had some Stormcast Eternals, they could be anything from a cultists to imperial knights since for them the flowchart tells you neither.

The flowchart only deals with index legality, it doesn't force you to take models as their datasheet. It's not all powerful.

Do you have any RAW to support that?

 Jidmah wrote:
Do you have any RAW to support that?

You need to prove the flowchart is all encompassing. You can't prove a negative.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Do you have any RAW to support that?

You need to prove the flowchart is all encompassing. You can't prove a negative.

Designer's Commentary wrote:Since the announcement of Warhammer
40,000, some of you have been in touch
with questions about the rules. Here you
will find some of the most frequently
asked of these questions, chosen by
our group of expert and experienced
playtesters, along with the answers and
some guiding examples and commentary.

Designer's Commentary wrote:
WHAT DATASHEET RULES SHOULD I USE?

Use the following flowchart to determine which datasheet to use for your models. Note that regardless of
which datasheet you use, if you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you
should always use the most recently published points for your models and their weapons and wargear

Your turn.

The real answer is that if the model is roughly the right size and has the right gear, it is absolutely fine. Just make sure the opponent is not confused about what rules you're using.

It's absolutely fine to do as long as it's within reason yes.
Using a special characters for a similar generic character has been done since 40k existed.
It's all within reason.

So just ignore stupidity of gretchin being used as knights. It's a hyperbolic argument made to caused issues and arguments by small minded morons.

The correct answer is that it's up to that specific TO.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
From a rules standpoint it's perfectly fine to do. There is no requirement to use the "correct" model to represent a datasheet, only that it is a Citadel model. As far as the rules are concerned you can use a gretchin to represent an Imperial Knight.

That sounds an awfully lot like a "But it doesn't say I can't!" type of argument.

I disagree with you that RAW is silent on using the "correct" model. The first rule in the game says:

"The rules and characteristics for all models, and some terrain features, are presented on datasheets, which you will need in order to use the models in battle." [Emphasis added.]

What does that sentence mean, if not that you are to use a model's corresponding data sheet?

 Crimson wrote:
The real answer is that if the model is roughly the right size and has the right gear, it is absolutely fine. Just make sure the opponent is not confused about what rules you're using.

Agree, the RAW thing is not meant to be an actual answer, I'm just pulling BCB's leg because he claims to be 100% RAW 100% of the time and his answer actually contradicted what's written in the rules.

I use a Ghazghkull model as Mega Armored Warboss, but I also did a head swap, cleared away alot if the bling and ornamentation, and reposed the model a bit.

I'd say with a little alteration or a different color scheme, and WYSIWYG it should be fine.

Heh, I run a DA Lieutenant armed with the heavenfall blade a plasma pistol and bolt pistol and use the Cypher model for it