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I hope in the future we get upgraded marines, the +1 wounds, attacks etc. that Primaris have, seeing that fabius bile has the primarch project and he's far more knowledgeable than Cawl is on the matter. The only problem would be if Fabius refused to hand it over or the III legion for that matter.

Fabius will ask some astronomical prices for it, and ofc the CSM aren't really pure anymore whatever the case. They haven't been stealing Loyalist geneseed for fun, even if it is a great way to humiliate their enemies. The geneseed in original CSM have been taking hits from the Warp and any other manner of nasty condition imanigable for millenia and is probably not always viable, so they steal stuff from the Loyalists not only as a "feth you" but out of simple need.

But yes, they will be willing to steal the Primaris upgrades and creation too.

Spetulhu wrote:
Fabius will ask some astronomical prices for it, and ofc the CSM aren't really pure anymore whatever the case. They haven't been stealing Loyalist geneseed for fun, even if it is a great way to humiliate their enemies. The geneseed in original CSM have been taking hits from the Warp and any other manner of nasty condition imanigable for millenia and is probably not always viable, so they steal stuff from the Loyalists not only as a "feth you" but out of simple need.

But yes, they will be willing to steal the Primaris upgrades and creation too.

No that's not my point. Fabius as the origional Primarch project, he doesn't need loyalist gene seed, he can create new marines like Corax or Cawl did.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
Fabius will ask some astronomical prices for it, and ofc the CSM aren't really pure anymore whatever the case. They haven't been stealing Loyalist geneseed for fun, even if it is a great way to humiliate their enemies. The geneseed in original CSM have been taking hits from the Warp and any other manner of nasty condition imanigable for millenia and is probably not always viable, so they steal stuff from the Loyalists not only as a "feth you" but out of simple need.

But yes, they will be willing to steal the Primaris upgrades and creation too.

No that's not my point. Fabius as the origional Primarch project, he doesn't need loyalist gene seed, he can create new marines like Corax or Cawl did.

... since when?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
Fabius will ask some astronomical prices for it, and ofc the CSM aren't really pure anymore whatever the case. They haven't been stealing Loyalist geneseed for fun, even if it is a great way to humiliate their enemies. The geneseed in original CSM have been taking hits from the Warp and any other manner of nasty condition imanigable for millenia and is probably not always viable, so they steal stuff from the Loyalists not only as a "feth you" but out of simple need.

But yes, they will be willing to steal the Primaris upgrades and creation too.

No that's not my point. Fabius as the origional Primarch project, he doesn't need loyalist gene seed, he can create new marines like Corax or Cawl did.

... since when?

Its in Angel Exterminatus the Warmaster told Alpharius to hand over the Primarch project after Omegon stole it from Corax, so he could give it to the III legion.

In one of the blood angels novels, by James Swallow I think, it’s mentioned several times that with DNA samples Fabius cloned Horus, and was actively seeking a pure sample of Sanguinius’ blood to do the same to him so he has at least the ability to recreate primarchs. Abbadon beat the clone to the fething ground from what I remember, so it probably wasn’t a full clone with all Horus’ abilities and power but I don’t have all the details.

Don’t see why he can’t just sample some DNA and have Primarius Replicae churning out soon enough

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
In one of the blood angels novels, by James Swallow I think, it’s mentioned several times that with DNA samples Fabius cloned Horus, and was actively seeking a pure sample of Sanguinius’ blood to do the same to him so he has at least the ability to recreate primarchs. Abbadon beat the clone to the fething ground from what I remember, so it probably wasn’t a full clone with all Horus’ abilities and power but I don’t have all the details.

Don’t see why he can’t just sample some DNA and have Primarius Replicae churning out soon enough

He has all the Primarchs DNA, but he got the actually sample of Horus's DNA from Horus' body. Swallow must have missed the part where Fabius got the Primarch project, the writers can't be expected to know everything, Swallow is fantastic writer, though maybe the DNA source from the actual body of the Primarchs is better for cloning as the Primarch project is the base materials to make them not the full actual grown DNA of a Primarch, with all the mutations they acquire over time.

I haven’t read the books in a while but I think Fabius ended up winning, stealing a vial of blood from the Red Grail. The books are also well over a decade old at this point, the one I’m referencing was written in 04? I think. I’m not sure how long he’s had access to the primarch project

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
I haven’t read the books in a while but I think Fabius ended up winning, stealing a vial of blood from the Red Grail. The books are also well over a decade old at this point, the one I’m referencing was written in 04? I think. I’m not sure how long he’s had access to the primarch project

Well Angel Exterminatus was published in 2012. So we just have to chop it up to old lore being replaced with new lore.

Well, that was far and away the point of my post. He’s done it before on a level complex enough to recreate primarchs. Primaris should be easy enough

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
In one of the blood angels novels, by James Swallow I think, it’s mentioned several times that with DNA samples Fabius cloned Horus, and was actively seeking a pure sample of Sanguinius’ blood to do the same to him so he has at least the ability to recreate primarchs. Abbadon beat the clone to the fething ground from what I remember, so it probably wasn’t a full clone with all Horus’ abilities and power but I don’t have all the details.

Don’t see why he can’t just sample some DNA and have Primarius Replicae churning out soon enough

I believe it had all of Horus's powers and such but was very new to being alive so it was like beating someone with no understanding of fighting.

pm713 wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
In one of the blood angels novels, by James Swallow I think, it’s mentioned several times that with DNA samples Fabius cloned Horus, and was actively seeking a pure sample of Sanguinius’ blood to do the same to him so he has at least the ability to recreate primarchs. Abbadon beat the clone to the fething ground from what I remember, so it probably wasn’t a full clone with all Horus’ abilities and power but I don’t have all the details.

Don’t see why he can’t just sample some DNA and have Primarius Replicae churning out soon enough

I believe it had all of Horus's powers and such but was very new to being alive so it was like beating someone with no understanding of fighting.

Yeah, it was pretty much an exact clone in the vlack legion novel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Well, that was far and away the point of my post. He’s done it before on a level complex enough to recreate primarchs. Primaris should be easy enough

Cloning is far different from creating new marines.

Somebody else created them already. Just like with making marines, he’s fully capable of making marines with powers on par with those of non clones. You want a chaos version of marines like the Primaris, why go through the trouble of studying for decades or centuries or even millennia (not sure how long to make Primaris origionally, but no way has bile been spending as much time or energy on that when he’s been dicking around with primarch DNA) when he could just spend a couple years cranking out clones of someone else’s hard work and labor?

Whut? Fabulous bill doesn’t have the primarch goo, he has the corrupted goo, they gave him the fake one and kept the real one, odd that the alpha legion hasn’t used it yet though.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
Fabius will ask some astronomical prices for it, and ofc the CSM aren't really pure anymore whatever the case. They haven't been stealing Loyalist geneseed for fun, even if it is a great way to humiliate their enemies. The geneseed in original CSM have been taking hits from the Warp and any other manner of nasty condition imanigable for millenia and is probably not always viable, so they steal stuff from the Loyalists not only as a "feth you" but out of simple need.

But yes, they will be willing to steal the Primaris upgrades and creation too.

No that's not my point. Fabius as the origional Primarch project, he doesn't need loyalist gene seed, he can create new marines like Corax or Cawl did.

... since when?

Its in Angel Exterminatus the Warmaster told Alpharius to hand over the Primarch project after Omegon stole it from Corax, so he could give it to the III legion.

I'd not trust ther Alpha Legion didn't sabotoge the work somehow.

I think my issue here is when I say clone them, I mean cloning/replicating the Work and producing fully formed ones ala Daemoncaubula or the like and not identical copies of the same one ala stormtroopers. Just got off work and I’m bit slow at the moment.

 Formosa wrote:
Whut? Fabulous bill doesn’t have the primarch goo, he has the corrupted goo, they gave him the fake one and kept the real one, odd that the alpha legion hasn’t used it yet though.

Where did you read this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
Fabius will ask some astronomical prices for it, and ofc the CSM aren't really pure anymore whatever the case. They haven't been stealing Loyalist geneseed for fun, even if it is a great way to humiliate their enemies. The geneseed in original CSM have been taking hits from the Warp and any other manner of nasty condition imanigable for millenia and is probably not always viable, so they steal stuff from the Loyalists not only as a "feth you" but out of simple need.

But yes, they will be willing to steal the Primaris upgrades and creation too.

No that's not my point. Fabius as the origional Primarch project, he doesn't need loyalist gene seed, he can create new marines like Corax or Cawl did.

... since when?

Its in Angel Exterminatus the Warmaster told Alpharius to hand over the Primarch project after Omegon stole it from Corax, so he could give it to the III legion.

I'd not trust ther Alpha Legion didn't sabotoge the work somehow.

He'd know, as if you could fake that. You'd either get results from it or you wouldn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Somebody else created them already. Just like with making marines, he’s fully capable of making marines with powers on par with those of non clones. You want a chaos version of marines like the Primaris, why go through the trouble of studying for decades or centuries or even millennia (not sure how long to make Primaris origionally, but no way has bile been spending as much time or energy on that when he’s been dicking around with primarch DNA) when he could just spend a couple years cranking out clones of someone else’s hard work and labor?

Because the Astartes were built for a purpose they were never the best marines that could have been made.

Personally, I hope Bile feels that Cawl is a hack and won't lower himself to pumping out CSM Primaris. If they're not going to have him produce something different as an answer to Primaris then just let us keep old marines jacked up on Chaos power and let SM keep their bland crap. Cawl and Primaris just piss all over Bile's actual history in the game. Having him reduced to copying the work of a character who GW only recently made up is just sad. They might as well remove his character instead.

Skaorn wrote:
Personally, I hope Bile feels that Cawl is a hack and won't lower himself to pumping out CSM Primaris. If they're not going to have him produce something different as an answer to Primaris then just let us keep old marines jacked up on Chaos power and let SM keep their bland crap. Cawl and Primaris just piss all over Bile's actual history in the game. Having him reduced to copying the work of a character who GW only recently made up is just sad. They might as well remove his character instead.

Yeah, I'd actually prefer that come to think of it, just make our lads more of what they 'should' be, being Chaos an'll. The Primaris lore is so bad, I just want rules that a SM should have, 1 wound is ridiculously bad in 8th for the price we pay for models, our models are wiped off the board so quickly. GW nerfed toughness that it doesn't have that much of an effect anymore, but they forgot to change all the profiles of armies to coincide with that change. As for Cawl, Fabius was doing some of his best work when Cawl was still all flesh and wasn't even an adept.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Skaorn wrote:
Personally, I hope Bile feels that Cawl is a hack and won't lower himself to pumping out CSM Primaris. If they're not going to have him produce something different as an answer to Primaris then just let us keep old marines jacked up on Chaos power and let SM keep their bland crap. Cawl and Primaris just piss all over Bile's actual history in the game. Having him reduced to copying the work of a character who GW only recently made up is just sad. They might as well remove his character instead.

Yeah, I'd actually prefer that come to think of it, just make our lads more of what they 'should' be, being Chaos an'll. The Primaris lore is so bad, I just want rules that a SM should have, 1 wound is ridiculously bad in 8th for the price we pay for models, our models are wiped off the board so quickly. GW nerfed toughness that it doesn't have that much of an effect anymore, but they forgot to change all the profiles of armies to coincide with that change. As for Cawl, Fabius was doing some of his best work when Cawl was still all flesh and wasn't even an adept.

I'm not a huge fan of the Primaris lore, but I like the Primaris stat line. It feels more in line with what Space Marines should be. I wish they had just made all Space Marines have two wounds and two attacks and said that the Primaris Marines were a new Mk of power armor that was more true to the scale. That ship has probably sailed, but I'm curious to see what happens when the next SM codex drops.

When it comes to CSM, I agree that I'd rather see them do more than simple Primaris CSM, although I'd like to see them have the same stat line and scale as the Primaris Marines. Many of the CSM kits are old and could use a refresh anyway, so I think that's a good reason to have just one basic CSM profile rather than an old one and a new one (the old models should of course still be playable, just with the additional wound and attack).

I think it would be interesting if the different Legions had different narratives (and slightly different rules) as to why they were bigger and badder. Just being hulked out on Warp juice works for some of them, but of course I would want a better narrative description than that. Iron Warriors could be as much machine as marine. I could actually see there being an Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Renegades Primaris kit based on stolen Imperial tech.

Of course, they already made the new Plague Marines only have one wound, which I find a little weird.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Skaorn wrote:
Personally, I hope Bile feels that Cawl is a hack and won't lower himself to pumping out CSM Primaris. If they're not going to have him produce something different as an answer to Primaris then just let us keep old marines jacked up on Chaos power and let SM keep their bland crap. Cawl and Primaris just piss all over Bile's actual history in the game. Having him reduced to copying the work of a character who GW only recently made up is just sad. They might as well remove his character instead.

Yeah, I'd actually prefer that come to think of it, just make our lads more of what they 'should' be, being Chaos an'll. The Primaris lore is so bad, I just want rules that a SM should have, 1 wound is ridiculously bad in 8th for the price we pay for models, our models are wiped off the board so quickly. GW nerfed toughness that it doesn't have that much of an effect anymore, but they forgot to change all the profiles of armies to coincide with that change. As for Cawl, Fabius was doing some of his best work when Cawl was still all flesh and wasn't even an adept.

I'm not a huge fan of the Primaris lore, but I like the Primaris stat line. It feels more in line with what Space Marines should be. I wish they had just made all Space Marines have two wounds and two attacks and said that the Primaris Marines were a new Mk of power armor that was more true to the scale. That ship has probably sailed, but I'm curious to see what happens when the next SM codex drops.

When it comes to CSM, I agree that I'd rather see them do more than simple Primaris CSM, although I'd like to see them have the same stat line and scale as the Primaris Marines. Many of the CSM kits are old and could use a refresh anyway, so I think that's a good reason to have just one basic CSM profile rather than an old one and a new one (the old models should of course still be playable, just with the additional wound and attack).

I think it would be interesting if the different Legions had different narratives (and slightly different rules) as to why they were bigger and badder. Just being hulked out on Warp juice works for some of them, but of course I would want a better narrative description than that. Iron Warriors could be as much machine as marine. I could actually see there being an Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Renegades Primaris kit based on stolen Imperial tech.

Of course, they already made the new Plague Marines only have one wound, which I find a little weird.

Plus 8th edition has reduced the extent at which strength and toughness act in the game, so now our 4 strength and 4 toughness isn't as good as it used to be.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
In one of the blood angels novels, by James Swallow I think, it’s mentioned several times that with DNA samples Fabius cloned Horus, and was actively seeking a pure sample of Sanguinius’ blood to do the same to him so he has at least the ability to recreate primarchs. Abbadon beat the clone to the fething ground from what I remember, so it probably wasn’t a full clone with all Horus’ abilities and power but I don’t have all the details.

Don’t see why he can’t just sample some DNA and have Primarius Replicae churning out soon enough

He has all the Primarchs DNA, but he got the actually sample of Horus's DNA from Horus' body. Swallow must have missed the part where Fabius got the Primarch project, the writers can't be expected to know everything, Swallow is fantastic writer[u], though maybe the DNA source from the actual body of the Primarchs is better for cloning as the Primarch project is the base materials to make them not the full actual grown DNA of a Primarch, with all the mutations they acquire over time.

Whuuuuuut?!

He is by far the worst Black Library author I have yet encountered. He once had a line in which "it was as if a serpentine-like thing seemed to writhe under someone's skin". How many layers of "as if", "seemed", "-ilke" and "-ine" similes can you squeeze into one sentence? Was he trying to win a bet? He does that sooooo much! Haing said that, I just read the War Without End anthology, and he had two good short stories without that crap. Maybe he has grown out of it.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
In one of the blood angels novels, by James Swallow I think, it’s mentioned several times that with DNA samples Fabius cloned Horus, and was actively seeking a pure sample of Sanguinius’ blood to do the same to him so he has at least the ability to recreate primarchs. Abbadon beat the clone to the fething ground from what I remember, so it probably wasn’t a full clone with all Horus’ abilities and power but I don’t have all the details.

Don’t see why he can’t just sample some DNA and have Primarius Replicae churning out soon enough

He has all the Primarchs DNA,

HAD. Had. Abaddon saw to that issue when he dropped a spaceship on Harmony.

 Fifty wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
In one of the blood angels novels, by James Swallow I think, it’s mentioned several times that with DNA samples Fabius cloned Horus, and was actively seeking a pure sample of Sanguinius’ blood to do the same to him so he has at least the ability to recreate primarchs. Abbadon beat the clone to the fething ground from what I remember, so it probably wasn’t a full clone with all Horus’ abilities and power but I don’t have all the details.

Don’t see why he can’t just sample some DNA and have Primarius Replicae churning out soon enough

He has all the Primarchs DNA, but he got the actually sample of Horus's DNA from Horus' body. Swallow must have missed the part where Fabius got the Primarch project, the writers can't be expected to know everything, Swallow is fantastic writer[u], though maybe the DNA source from the actual body of the Primarchs is better for cloning as the Primarch project is the base materials to make them not the full actual grown DNA of a Primarch, with all the mutations they acquire over time.

Whuuuuuut?!

He is by far the worst Black Library author I have yet encountered. He once had a line in which "it was as if a serpentine-like thing seemed to writhe under someone's skin". How many layers of "as if", "seemed", "-ilke" and "-ine" similes can you squeeze into one sentence? Was he trying to win a bet? He does that sooooo much! Haing said that, I just read the War Without End anthology, and he had two good short stories without that crap. Maybe he has grown out of it.

WHUUUUUUU? He wrote Flight of the Eisenstein. All writers have their good and bad novels, but Flight of the Eisenstein shows how good he is. Chris Wraight has reserved the 'worst writer' of black library novels.

You spelt "C.S. Goto" wrong there...

 Grimtuff wrote:
You spelt "C.S. Goto" wrong there...

What, razorbacks aren’t transformers in your headcannon?

Wholeheartedly agree, Goto should have never gotten past an editor much less to print

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Fifty wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
In one of the blood angels novels, by James Swallow I think, it’s mentioned several times that with DNA samples Fabius cloned Horus, and was actively seeking a pure sample of Sanguinius’ blood to do the same to him so he has at least the ability to recreate primarchs. Abbadon beat the clone to the fething ground from what I remember, so it probably wasn’t a full clone with all Horus’ abilities and power but I don’t have all the details.

Don’t see why he can’t just sample some DNA and have Primarius Replicae churning out soon enough

He has all the Primarchs DNA, but he got the actually sample of Horus's DNA from Horus' body. Swallow must have missed the part where Fabius got the Primarch project, the writers can't be expected to know everything, Swallow is fantastic writer[u], though maybe the DNA source from the actual body of the Primarchs is better for cloning as the Primarch project is the base materials to make them not the full actual grown DNA of a Primarch, with all the mutations they acquire over time.

Whuuuuuut?!

He is by far the worst Black Library author I have yet encountered. He once had a line in which "it was as if a serpentine-like thing seemed to writhe under someone's skin". How many layers of "as if", "seemed", "-ilke" and "-ine" similes can you squeeze into one sentence? Was he trying to win a bet? He does that sooooo much! Haing said that, I just read the War Without End anthology, and he had two good short stories without that crap. Maybe he has grown out of it.

WHUUUUUUU? He wrote Flight of the Eisenstein. All writers have their good and bad novels, but Flight of the Eisenstein shows how good he is. Chris Wraight has reserved the 'worst writer' of black library novels.

That book was one of his worst! Honestly though, it is strange how different people's opinions of authors can be. I find it a struggle to get through his books, and only read them fr continuity and a sense of completeness. If the whole series could be written by Aaron Dembski-Brown with a few bits chipped in by Dan Abnett and maybe one or two little bits of Guy Haley, I'd be a happy man.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
In one of the blood angels novels, by James Swallow I think, it’s mentioned several times that with DNA samples Fabius cloned Horus, and was actively seeking a pure sample of Sanguinius’ blood to do the same to him so he has at least the ability to recreate primarchs. Abbadon beat the clone to the fething ground from what I remember, so it probably wasn’t a full clone with all Horus’ abilities and power but I don’t have all the details.

Don’t see why he can’t just sample some DNA and have Primarius Replicae churning out soon enough

He has all the Primarchs DNA, but he got the actually sample of Horus's DNA from Horus' body. Swallow must have missed the part where Fabius got the Primarch project, the writers can't be expected to know everything, Swallow is fantastic writer, though maybe the DNA source from the actual body of the Primarchs is better for cloning as the Primarch project is the base materials to make them not the full actual grown DNA of a Primarch, with all the mutations they acquire over time.

He was aware. Remember that as well as the cloned horus, abbadon also encounters a foetal lorgar in the laboratories during Talon Of Horus. The himalayzian gene repository is the only place we know he could have got material for that, unless we're to believe fabius snuck up on the Urizen with a bone marrow needle....

Equally, fabius bile clonelord states that whilst the only fully functioning clones he's made are horus, ferrus and fulgrim, he's made foetal or failed clones 'of all twenty'. The repository is the only place he could practically get the last two, but the fact he's only managed to get walking talking clones of the three we know he's had physical access to hints there's something important missing from the base material of the others (probably related to the bargain on Molech.....). Hence him wanting blood samples of Gulliman and The Angel.

 Fifty wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Fifty wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
In one of the blood angels novels, by James Swallow I think, it’s mentioned several times that with DNA samples Fabius cloned Horus, and was actively seeking a pure sample of Sanguinius’ blood to do the same to him so he has at least the ability to recreate primarchs. Abbadon beat the clone to the fething ground from what I remember, so it probably wasn’t a full clone with all Horus’ abilities and power but I don’t have all the details.

Don’t see why he can’t just sample some DNA and have Primarius Replicae churning out soon enough

He has all the Primarchs DNA, but he got the actually sample of Horus's DNA from Horus' body. Swallow must have missed the part where Fabius got the Primarch project, the writers can't be expected to know everything, Swallow is fantastic writer[u], though maybe the DNA source from the actual body of the Primarchs is better for cloning as the Primarch project is the base materials to make them not the full actual grown DNA of a Primarch, with all the mutations they acquire over time.

Whuuuuuut?!

He is by far the worst Black Library author I have yet encountered. He once had a line in which "it was as if a serpentine-like thing seemed to writhe under someone's skin". How many layers of "as if", "seemed", "-ilke" and "-ine" similes can you squeeze into one sentence? Was he trying to win a bet? He does that sooooo much! Haing said that, I just read the War Without End anthology, and he had two good short stories without that crap. Maybe he has grown out of it.

WHUUUUUUU? He wrote Flight of the Eisenstein. All writers have their good and bad novels, but Flight of the Eisenstein shows how good he is. Chris Wraight has reserved the 'worst writer' of black library novels.

That book was one of his worst! Honestly though, it is strange how different people's opinions of authors can be. I find it a struggle to get through his books, and only read them fr continuity and a sense of completeness. If the whole series could be written by Aaron Dembski-Brown with a few bits chipped in by Dan Abnett and maybe one or two little bits of Guy Haley, I'd be a happy man.

Yeah liking books is so subjective, he writes well though whether you like the books or not, like Chris Wraight is a 'bad' writer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

locarno24 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
In one of the blood angels novels, by James Swallow I think, it’s mentioned several times that with DNA samples Fabius cloned Horus, and was actively seeking a pure sample of Sanguinius’ blood to do the same to him so he has at least the ability to recreate primarchs. Abbadon beat the clone to the fething ground from what I remember, so it probably wasn’t a full clone with all Horus’ abilities and power but I don’t have all the details.

Don’t see why he can’t just sample some DNA and have Primarius Replicae churning out soon enough

He has all the Primarchs DNA, but he got the actually sample of Horus's DNA from Horus' body. Swallow must have missed the part where Fabius got the Primarch project, the writers can't be expected to know everything, Swallow is fantastic writer, though maybe the DNA source from the actual body of the Primarchs is better for cloning as the Primarch project is the base materials to make them not the full actual grown DNA of a Primarch, with all the mutations they acquire over time.

He was aware. Remember that as well as the cloned horus, abbadon also encounters a foetal lorgar in the laboratories during Talon Of Horus. The himalayzian gene repository is the only place we know he could have got material for that, unless we're to believe fabius snuck up on the Urizen with a bone marrow needle....

Equally, fabius bile clonelord states that whilst the only fully functioning clones he's made are horus, ferrus and fulgrim, he's made foetal or failed clones 'of all twenty'. The repository is the only place he could practically get the last two, but the fact he's only managed to get walking talking clones of the three we know he's had physical access to hints there's something important missing from the base material of the others (probably related to the bargain on Molech.....). Hence him wanting blood samples of Gulliman and The Angel.

I don't think there is anything missing from the base materials, as they were not meant for cloning, thet were the genetic material used to make marines, so you can't really clone something from the base materials, nothing has been made from it to clone.

I was talking about his attempt to create primarch clones, not just marines. His ability to attempt to create lorgar proves that as of talon of horus he still had the primarch project samples.

And he can definitely create new 'normal' geneseed - his ability to do so has always been his biggest tradeable asset since 3rd edition chaos codex, and is basically the one thing stopping everyone who hates him -basically everyone - from just having him killed. He's the only source of moderately uncorrupt geneseed other than loyalist corpses or recent renegades.


However, there are two problems.

The primarch samples he got were the ones from deliverance which were buggered with mutagenic warp stuff; omegon specifically says this in deliverance lost. Fabius is incredibly gifted (if questionably sane) and presumably manages to un-bugger it during the legion wars, but it means his source material is nowhere near as useful as the raven guard had it, and whilst creating marines is doable, creating marines plus is a much less stable process (see fabius' "enhanced marines").

Secondly, abbadon and the justaerin are Very thorough in burnìng his labs and samples in talon of horus, so he's trying to recreate it from scratch (or at least from fragments). Prime-source samples from primarch corpses would help a lot with that.

that said, yes, bile should be the source of a chaos primaris equivalent. Yes, they are prone to mutation and have a reduced life expectancy compared to impèrial primaris, but who cares? In biles eyes -and his customers - theyre mass produced cannon fodder....