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Now that kill team is out, what is everyone's initial hack at a teir list? Who is top mid and bottom? I know KT is new, this is for initial impressions. Updated as of 10aug18 with your inputs!

Top
-Thousand sons
- death guard
- primaris Marines
- Tau
- harlequins

Mid
- Space Marines (standard)
- Guard
- necrons

Bottom
- Grey Knights
- craftworld eldar

Having played and beaten two grey knight kill team's with my scion/guard killteam today I can't say I rate them too highly. Being one of the only psychic factions is a strong advantage (losing models to smite is annoying) but it's not enough to offset the low model count, it's fairly easy to force a break test on them and every model they lose really hurts them.

Sounds familiar.. being a grey Knight player

 Smotejob wrote:
Now that kill team is out, what is everyone's initial hack at a teir list? Who is top mid and bottom? I know KT is new, this is for initial impressions

Top
-Thousand sons

Agreed, their now hard to remove 2+ saves along with access to high AP weaponry (for the cheap) is very, very strong.

Tau look iffy. No CC seems really bad, but Stealth Suits look good so that's something.

Probably low-mid tier?

Deathguard feels very strong to me.
So durable with disgustingly resilient and toghness 5.

The Space Marine player at the tournament I went to yesterday brought a full team of Reivers and went 4-0 and won the tournament. It wasn't a super competitive tournament but I'm still looking back and thinking it's not even possible to tailor my list to compete with that as Necrons. Scytheguard please GW...

I think the factions that are really difficult to take the injury roll will all be really strong - so Primaris Marines, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons. Tyranids will probably be pretty good too given Lictors.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The Space Marine player at the tournament I went to yesterday brought a full team of Reivers and went 4-0 and won the tournament. It wasn't a super competitive tournament but I'm still looking back and thinking it's not even possible to tailor my list to compete with that as Necrons. Scytheguard please GW...

I think the factions that are really difficult to take the injury roll will all be really strong - so Primaris Marines, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons. Tyranids will probably be pretty good too given Lictors.

To be fair, I don't think Necrons are more than 'Mid Tier' when it comes to Killteam - I honestly think they're really, really weak.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The Space Marine player at the tournament I went to yesterday brought a full team of Reivers and went 4-0 and won the tournament. It wasn't a super competitive tournament but I'm still looking back and thinking it's not even possible to tailor my list to compete with that as Necrons. Scytheguard please GW...

I think the factions that are really difficult to take the injury roll will all be really strong - so Primaris Marines, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons. Tyranids will probably be pretty good too given Lictors.

Love to know what the Reiver list was.

yeah GK do lack some sort of low cost unit. Maybe they should have something like servo skulls added to fill out the ranks.
It could worse, though someone smart is going to have to explain to me why inv/+2 sv 1ksons are ok to be a thing in kill team, but GK termintors are not. If GW was so worried about termintors kill teams, they could just have made then 0-1.

Karol wrote:
yeah GK do lack some sort of low cost unit. Maybe they should have something like servo skulls added to fill out the ranks.
It could worse, though someone smart is going to have to explain to me why inv/+2 sv 1ksons are ok to be a thing in kill team, but GK termintors are not. If GW was so worried about termintors kill teams, they could just have made then 0-1.

I'm sure we'll get Terminators eventually. Probably wave 2 sometime next year.

I guess they just wanted to keep the first wave reasonably concise.

Updated the list. How are the eldar races doing? Tau?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 w0nderland wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The Space Marine player at the tournament I went to yesterday brought a full team of Reivers and went 4-0 and won the tournament. It wasn't a super competitive tournament but I'm still looking back and thinking it's not even possible to tailor my list to compete with that as Necrons. Scytheguard please GW...

I think the factions that are really difficult to take the injury roll will all be really strong - so Primaris Marines, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons. Tyranids will probably be pretty good too given Lictors.

Love to know what the Reiver list was.

I would love to know why grey knights are more expensive than a primaris Marine and significantly less durable with a worse gun. Granted gk have force weapons but not enough attacks

Also updated the list

Also curious about Tyranids.

They look strong on paper. Highest wounds models in the game, one of the best ranged heavy weapons in the game (venom cannon), fast, strong CC units, spammable hordes and tough elite models.

Possible downsides are no spammable decent ranged attacks (Deathspitters are very good, but you can't fit more than 4 Warriors in a list), and no saves better than a 4+.

Hoping to play my first games with them later in the week.

Yup need feedback on orks, nids, demons, csm, eldar, DE, harlequins, tau

Harliquins are probably low mid tier. They're a lot of fun, just not too good

Death guard are pretty silly, but I feel like people will figure out how to beat them pretty quickly. (Make them take moral/nerve checks)

Their combat specialists are brutal, if someone is spamming pox walkers just use that to trigger break checks since it's so easy to kill them.

Thousand sons are really good.

 Smotejob wrote:
with a worse gun.

Huh? Storm bolters are significantly better than bolt rifles and auto bolt rifles. I agree GK are slightly overcosted relative to primaris marines, but not because of their guns.

GK need to maximise their shootiness to be viable in KT. Never take any melee weapon you have to pay points for: hammers and falchions are trap choices. Take a Heavy specialist with a psilencer and a Demolitions specialist with either a second psilencer or an incinerator. Everybody else with storm bolter and sword/halberd (this means you can afford five guys total). Keep your Justicar alive for the extra CPs and spam Psibolt Ammunition and More Bullets/Custom Ammo. Make sure your storm bolters are shooting from within 12". Don't try to actually get into melee: there's nothing a GK can do in melee that compares to four storm bolter shots, especially with psibolt ammo.

If you take a team of 2 gunners, 1 leader and, 2 strike team members and equip them with either 2 psilencers or 1 psilencer and an incinerator you have 1 point left over which is the cost of a set of falchions.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
If you take a team of 2 gunners, 1 leader and, 2 strike team members and equip them with either 2 psilencers or 1 psilencer and an incinerator you have 1 point left over which is the cost of a set of falchions.

A set or a single? A grey knight can exchange their sword for two falcions, then in the points it says 1pt per weapon. So is it 2?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
with a worse gun.

Huh? Storm bolters are significantly better than bolt rifles and auto bolt rifles. I agree GK are slightly overcosted relative to primaris marines, but not because of their guns.

GK need to maximise their shootiness to be viable in KT. Never take any melee weapon you have to pay points for: hammers and falchions are trap choices. Take a Heavy specialist with a psilencer and a Demolitions specialist with either a second psilencer or an incinerator. Everybody else with storm bolter and sword/halberd (this means you can afford five guys total). Keep your Justicar alive for the extra CPs and spam Psibolt Ammunition and More Bullets/Custom Ammo. Make sure your storm bolters are shooting from within 12". Don't try to actually get into melee: there's nothing a GK can do in melee that compares to four storm bolter shots, especially with psibolt ammo.

I agree, cc weapons are a trap, gk are a shooting army that can cut through power armor if cc happens.

My meta plays it as a set for 1 point. If they were 1 point each it would be pretty silly since a force sword is better than a single falchion. (Not to say that GW hasn't done silly/stupid things before).

I played deathguard vs orks just now.
Orks had a gretchin as leader.
Then a nob with powerklaw and a kommando nob with powerklaw and two shootaboys with one big shoota and one rokkitlauncha.
The rest sluggaboys.

They overwhelmed me and killed me in cc.

Powerklaws are brutal!
Rokkitlauncha didnt hit a single time.
Big shoota missed almost all shots.

Shooting was a waste but other than that orks are strong vs deathguard.

In the end orks started taking a lot of nerve tests, but they blob so much so they are actually not so susceptible to being shaken.

Hard to tell about ork shooting. 7 pts bigshootas aren't half bad in theory

Wow, my impressions have been completely different, lol.

I've played as GK once, and seen a friend play as GK several times and both of us were absolutely blown away by how they performed. Multi damage weaponry seems to be absolutely key in Kill Team because just 2 damage straight up doubles your odds of removing someone with an injury roll. I played them versus Guard which was running what I felt like was a relatively power-gamey type list relying on stacking a huge amount of guardsmen up and issuing Take Aim to the whole bunch with sir yes sir. I ran

Justicar - Stave
Gunner - Psilencer (Heavy)
Gunner - Incinerator (Comms)
Knight with Falchions - Zealot
Knight with Halberd

Comms to boost one of the guys who has to make hit rolls up by 1 (in game it was the Psilencer every time), Heavy and Zealot for obvious reasons. The opposing army started the mission outnumbering me 3 to 1, but the first full rip from the Psilencer took down 3 guardsmen including the plasma gun sniper. By the end, one single GK had gone down and my opponent was pretty much autofailing morale.

In general it seems like marines have a large advantage in Kill Team of many teams' basic dudes just not having good equipment to fight power armor. You have to take your plasmas, your dark lances whatever on your specialists..which the marines can just pop first with all availalbe firepower.

And oddly, the only flavor of marine I've just looked at and felt they were totally worthless were Primaris marines. Why would I take a Grey Knight over a Reiver? Because in Kill Team I think I'd actually rather have one S5 Ap-2 D3 damage attack than two S4 AP- 1 damage attacks, and a storm bolter is 4 shots to a bolt carbine's 2 shots. And two wounds vs one wound is much less of an advantage than it is in regular 40k, where a multidamage weapon basically just totally ignores multiple wounds - it strips off your extra wound, aaaand then it still gets 2 damage rolls. And intercessors...I'm not sure why I'd even consider one over a Reiver.

the_scotsman wrote:
Justicar - Stave
Gunner - Psilencer (Heavy)
Gunner - Incinerator (Comms)
Knight with Falchions - Zealot
Knight with Halberd

I plan to run something similar when I get some time. I'll try to report back how it goes...

Justicar - Nemesis Force Sword (Leader)
Knight - Nemesis Force Halberd (Veteran)
Knight - Nemesis Falchions (Combat)
Knight - Nemesis Warding Stave (Zealot)
Knight - Nemesis Daemon Hammer

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Justicar - Stave
Gunner - Psilencer (Heavy)
Gunner - Incinerator (Comms)
Knight with Falchions - Zealot
Knight with Halberd

I plan to run something similar when I get some time. I'll try to report back how it goes...

Justicar - Nemesis Force Sword (Leader)
Knight - Nemesis Force Halberd (Veteran)
Knight - Nemesis Falchions (Combat)
Knight - Nemesis Warding Stave (Zealot)
Knight - Nemesis Daemon Hammer

SG

I think unless you're in a relatively casual league you're going to struggle spending your points on melee gear for all guys. The difference between a halberd and a hammer is honestly pretty small wheras the difference between a regular storm bolter and a psilencer is pretty huge. I pretty much only see the hammer as worthwhile on a leader or Combat specialist, and the falchions always want to be Zealot for that +1S.

Having messed around primarily with the "fancy pants marines" factions, I like Deathwatch better than GK because they have more options available, more choices in general, but I think they're both decently good factions as are pretty much all marines.

Most factions seem to have a "trap" build that is just kind of terrible, and that's generally the way that turns them into a super skewy skew list. "I'm gonna take all marines with boltguns! I'm sure nobody will have a really durable model I can't possibly get through with these!" "I'm gonna do all shooty basic necron duders, no melee at all! I'm sure I won't get rushed!" "All plasma guardsmen is OP! Enemy models with high rate of fire weaponry definitely won't scythe down my T3 5+ squishy squishy bodies!" I feel like no gunners GK is that setup for them. You need a Master Sergeant Shooter Person, at least one on the team. Psycannons to up your odds of bringing down marines from a distance or a Psilencer to drop bodies en masse.

the_scotsman wrote:
Wow, my impressions have been completely different, lol.

I've played as GK once, and seen a friend play as GK several times and both of us were absolutely blown away by how they performed. Multi damage weaponry seems to be absolutely key in Kill Team because just 2 damage straight up doubles your odds of removing someone with an injury roll. I played them versus Guard which was running what I felt like was a relatively power-gamey type list relying on stacking a huge amount of guardsmen up and issuing Take Aim to the whole bunch with sir yes sir. I ran

Justicar - Stave
Gunner - Psilencer (Heavy)
Gunner - Incinerator (Comms)
Knight with Falchions - Zealot
Knight with Halberd

Comms to boost one of the guys who has to make hit rolls up by 1 (in game it was the Psilencer every time), Heavy and Zealot for obvious reasons. The opposing army started the mission outnumbering me 3 to 1, but the first full rip from the Psilencer took down 3 guardsmen including the plasma gun sniper. By the end, one single GK had gone down and my opponent was pretty much autofailing morale.

In general it seems like marines have a large advantage in Kill Team of many teams' basic dudes just not having good equipment to fight power armor. You have to take your plasmas, your dark lances whatever on your specialists..which the marines can just pop first with all availalbe firepower.

And oddly, the only flavor of marine I've just looked at and felt they were totally worthless were Primaris marines. Why would I take a Grey Knight over a Reiver? Because in Kill Team I think I'd actually rather have one S5 Ap-2 D3 damage attack than two S4 AP- 1 damage attacks, and a storm bolter is 4 shots to a bolt carbine's 2 shots. And two wounds vs one wound is much less of an advantage than it is in regular 40k, where a multidamage weapon basically just totally ignores multiple wounds - it strips off your extra wound, aaaand then it still gets 2 damage rolls. And intercessors...I'm not sure why I'd even consider one over a Reiver.

See, I'm not convinced that mass hordes of guys are the way to go for guard, from people's postings over in the guard killteam thread they don't seem so successful, Personally i've been running scion heavy lists with a couple of guardsmen to cart heavy special weapons around. List I ran against those two grey knight players was
Tempestor with powerfist/Bolt pistol (Leader)
Scion gunner with volleygun (Heavy)
Scion Gunner with volleygun
Scion Gunner with plasmagun- (Sniper)
Scion with Hotshot/Voxcaster (Comms)
Scion with Hotshot
Scion with Hotshot
Guardsmen with flamer
Guardsmen with flamer

Pretty much everything in that list barring the flamers and bolt pistol is rocking at least AP-2, hotshot's may be wounding on 5's like normal lasgun's but the AP means they actually have a chance of getting a wound or two through. In the future I'd probably switch the flamer's for melta's when going against MEQ's, should be nice and deadly and even if they do go down i'll still have the volleyguns and plasma to put the hurt out and vice versa. The 4+ save scion's get is pretty helpful vs storm bolter's as well and get down is very helpful as well to get that extra -1 on a guy you really don't want to die.

 gbghg wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Wow, my impressions have been completely different, lol.

I've played as GK once, and seen a friend play as GK several times and both of us were absolutely blown away by how they performed. Multi damage weaponry seems to be absolutely key in Kill Team because just 2 damage straight up doubles your odds of removing someone with an injury roll. I played them versus Guard which was running what I felt like was a relatively power-gamey type list relying on stacking a huge amount of guardsmen up and issuing Take Aim to the whole bunch with sir yes sir. I ran

Justicar - Stave
Gunner - Psilencer (Heavy)
Gunner - Incinerator (Comms)
Knight with Falchions - Zealot
Knight with Halberd

Comms to boost one of the guys who has to make hit rolls up by 1 (in game it was the Psilencer every time), Heavy and Zealot for obvious reasons. The opposing army started the mission outnumbering me 3 to 1, but the first full rip from the Psilencer took down 3 guardsmen including the plasma gun sniper. By the end, one single GK had gone down and my opponent was pretty much autofailing morale.

In general it seems like marines have a large advantage in Kill Team of many teams' basic dudes just not having good equipment to fight power armor. You have to take your plasmas, your dark lances whatever on your specialists..which the marines can just pop first with all availalbe firepower.

And oddly, the only flavor of marine I've just looked at and felt they were totally worthless were Primaris marines. Why would I take a Grey Knight over a Reiver? Because in Kill Team I think I'd actually rather have one S5 Ap-2 D3 damage attack than two S4 AP- 1 damage attacks, and a storm bolter is 4 shots to a bolt carbine's 2 shots. And two wounds vs one wound is much less of an advantage than it is in regular 40k, where a multidamage weapon basically just totally ignores multiple wounds - it strips off your extra wound, aaaand then it still gets 2 damage rolls. And intercessors...I'm not sure why I'd even consider one over a Reiver.

See, I'm not convinced that mass hordes of guys are the way to go for guard, from people's postings over in the guard killteam thread they don't seem so successful, Personally i've been running scion heavy lists with a couple of guardsmen to cart heavy special weapons around. List I ran against those two grey knight players was
Tempestor with powerfist/Bolt pistol (Leader)
Scion gunner with volleygun (Heavy)
Scion Gunner with volleygun
Scion Gunner with plasmagun- (Sniper)
Scion with Hotshot/Voxcaster (Comms)
Scion with Hotshot
Scion with Hotshot
Guardsmen with flamer
Guardsmen with flamer

Pretty much everything in that list barring the flamers and bolt pistol is rocking at least AP-2, hotshot's may be wounding on 5's like normal lasgun's but the AP means they actually have a chance of getting a wound or two through. In the future I'd probably switch the flamer's for melta's when going against MEQ's, should be nice and deadly and even if they do go down i'll still have the volleyguns and plasma to put the hurt out and vice versa. The 4+ save scion's get is pretty helpful vs storm bolter's as well and get down is very helpful as well to get that extra -1 on a guy you really don't want to die.

So, a list with almost entirely low-strength high AP single damage weapons did well against a list of W1 T4 Sv3+ models?

Great.

How did it do against a whole ton of orks, or a Thousand Sons list with a bunch of tzaangors, a sorc, a soulreaper cannon and a couple inferno bolters? How about against Harlequins?

That's so far my only complaint with Kill Team, which is that some lists just due to the units they have available are forced to skew really hard, and you have these weapon options you'd never take because you HAVE to use your special guys to get some diversity into a roster. Anyone who's playing Dark Eldar and doesn't start with two kabalite gunners with a blaster and a dark lance are going to be on the struggle bus big time if they ever run into power armor.

Saying "I think the forced power armor armies are bad, because I took all scions against them and kicked their teeth in" is kind of like saying you think knights are underpowered because you always just take an army with 58 lascannons against them and they die super easy.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:My meta plays it as a set for 1 point. If they were 1 point each it would be pretty silly since a force sword is better than a single falchion. (Not to say that GW hasn't done silly/stupid things before).

That's a perfectly sensible houserule, but by RAW a pair of falchions is 2 points. I would not be surprised if GW erratas it to 1 point for the pair, though. That would make them worth taking to fill up that last spare point.

the_scotsman wrote:Psycannons to up your odds of bringing down marines from a distance or a Psilencer to drop bodies en masse.

The psilencer is arguably better against marines than the psycannon. The average damage versus non-primaris (i.e. single wound) marines is slightly lower (0.666... vs 0.888...), but that is more than made up for by the increased chance of getting an OOA injury result (thanks to Transhuman Physiology, if you don't take a marine OOA, you almost might as well not have bothered shooting him). Your chances of taking a marine OOA with a full volley from a psilencer works out to exactly 50%, while your chances of doing the same with a psycannon volley is only 44%. Against primaris marines, the psilencer does even better (1.333... average damage).

(FWIW, a storm bolter at 12" or less does 0.444... average damage against a marine, with a 22% chance of taking him OOA per volley.)

EDIT: The psycannon is your best bet against Necrons, though. Due to the way Reanimation Protocols works, you never want to be shooting them with multi-damage weapons.

 w0nderland wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The Space Marine player at the tournament I went to yesterday brought a full team of Reivers and went 4-0 and won the tournament. It wasn't a super competitive tournament but I'm still looking back and thinking it's not even possible to tailor my list to compete with that as Necrons. Scytheguard please GW...

I think the factions that are really difficult to take the injury roll will all be really strong - so Primaris Marines, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons. Tyranids will probably be pretty good too given Lictors.

Love to know what the Reiver list was.

I think I might have been at the same tournament as Arachnofiend. If so, the guy that swept the tournament was running 5 reivers and a stalker bolter intercessor as his leader.

the_scotsman wrote:

 gbghg wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Wow, my impressions have been completely different, lol.

I've played as GK once, and seen a friend play as GK several times and both of us were absolutely blown away by how they performed. Multi damage weaponry seems to be absolutely key in Kill Team because just 2 damage straight up doubles your odds of removing someone with an injury roll. I played them versus Guard which was running what I felt like was a relatively power-gamey type list relying on stacking a huge amount of guardsmen up and issuing Take Aim to the whole bunch with sir yes sir. I ran

Justicar - Stave
Gunner - Psilencer (Heavy)
Gunner - Incinerator (Comms)
Knight with Falchions - Zealot
Knight with Halberd

Comms to boost one of the guys who has to make hit rolls up by 1 (in game it was the Psilencer every time), Heavy and Zealot for obvious reasons. The opposing army started the mission outnumbering me 3 to 1, but the first full rip from the Psilencer took down 3 guardsmen including the plasma gun sniper. By the end, one single GK had gone down and my opponent was pretty much autofailing morale.

In general it seems like marines have a large advantage in Kill Team of many teams' basic dudes just not having good equipment to fight power armor. You have to take your plasmas, your dark lances whatever on your specialists..which the marines can just pop first with all availalbe firepower.

And oddly, the only flavor of marine I've just looked at and felt they were totally worthless were Primaris marines. Why would I take a Grey Knight over a Reiver? Because in Kill Team I think I'd actually rather have one S5 Ap-2 D3 damage attack than two S4 AP- 1 damage attacks, and a storm bolter is 4 shots to a bolt carbine's 2 shots. And two wounds vs one wound is much less of an advantage than it is in regular 40k, where a multidamage weapon basically just totally ignores multiple wounds - it strips off your extra wound, aaaand then it still gets 2 damage rolls. And intercessors...I'm not sure why I'd even consider one over a Reiver.

See, I'm not convinced that mass hordes of guys are the way to go for guard, from people's postings over in the guard killteam thread they don't seem so successful, Personally i've been running scion heavy lists with a couple of guardsmen to cart heavy special weapons around. List I ran against those two grey knight players was
Tempestor with powerfist/Bolt pistol (Leader)
Scion gunner with volleygun (Heavy)
Scion Gunner with volleygun
Scion Gunner with plasmagun- (Sniper)
Scion with Hotshot/Voxcaster (Comms)
Scion with Hotshot
Scion with Hotshot
Guardsmen with flamer
Guardsmen with flamer

Pretty much everything in that list barring the flamers and bolt pistol is rocking at least AP-2, hotshot's may be wounding on 5's like normal lasgun's but the AP means they actually have a chance of getting a wound or two through. In the future I'd probably switch the flamer's for melta's when going against MEQ's, should be nice and deadly and even if they do go down i'll still have the volleyguns and plasma to put the hurt out and vice versa. The 4+ save scion's get is pretty helpful vs storm bolter's as well and get down is very helpful as well to get that extra -1 on a guy you really don't want to die.

So, a list with almost entirely low-strength high AP single damage weapons did well against a list of W1 T4 Sv3+ models?

Great.

How did it do against a whole ton of orks, or a Thousand Sons list with a bunch of tzaangors, a sorc, a soulreaper cannon and a couple inferno bolters? How about against Harlequins?

That's so far my only complaint with Kill Team, which is that some lists just due to the units they have available are forced to skew really hard, and you have these weapon options you'd never take because you HAVE to use your special guys to get some diversity into a roster. Anyone who's playing Dark Eldar and doesn't start with two kabalite gunners with a blaster and a dark lance are going to be on the struggle bus big time if they ever run into power armor.

Saying "I think the forced power armor armies are bad, because I took all scions against them and kicked their teeth in" is kind of like saying you think knights are underpowered because you always just take an army with 58 lascannons against them and they die super easy.

A big chunk of my local meta is power armour so it works quite decently there, have yet to run into an ork killteam or a harly one so I can't speak to it's effectiveness in that regard. And I believe one of the main points with how Killteam is set up is to have a pool of guys you pull from to suit the opponent and mission requirements. In any case volleyguns and flamer's both offer a fair volume of shots so it's not like the list is totally lacking in that regard either. And i mean, I could take an entire list of guardsmen with lasguns but volume of fire is nowhere near as effective here as it is in normal 40k due to the lack of first rank fire and single model unit's. Lasguns are very unimpressive to me in killteam as well, in practice you'll often be hitting on 6's, wounding on 5's and your opponent will be taking anything from a 3+ to a 5+ save against them compared to a hot shot's hitting on 5's, wounding on 5's and either forcing invun's,saves on 5/6+ or no save at all. Also I never said I think all power armour armies are bad, I said I wasn't impressed with Grey Knights which is mainly due to their low model count, which is due to the fact that if you can kill half of them (typicaly 2-3 models) or just wound all of them you can break them and cause morale to become an issue at which point things become pretty dire for them, something other MEQ's lists don't suffer from nearly as badly as I understand.