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Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine






Northumberland

The premise of this question is as follows: What exactly is it that the DA are hiding, and why is it such a big deal?

Before I go on, I should explain that whilst I've read quite a bit of their lore via Lexicanum etc., I've never really delved into DA themed books, much less any of the HH ones. So, onward we go...

I know that the deal is, Lion grounds a bunch of the DA on Caliban, and goes off to fight in the GC. When he gets back, after the HH, he finds they're all a bit ticked off with him, and may/may not have turned to Chaos. So he batters the planet and defeats/scatters the traitors. Job done. But why is this such a big deal to them? The White Scars had a whole bunch of their Legion side with Horus. Hasik Noyan-Khan commanded 20 Brotherhoods which, being as a Brotherhood is equal to a Chapter, means that potentially up to half of the Legion went rogue. Although it was more likely that much less than that supported Hasik, it wasn't an inconsiderable chunk that sided with Hasik and ultimately Horus. They even attempted to assassinate Jaghitai Khan - but they aren't keeping it in the dark or being super-secretive about it. It happened, and was dealt with. And since the HH, there have been plenty of Chapters that have partially turned to Chaos, but yet again they just get on with it. Sure, they'll have a special hatred for their former kin, but they aren't backstabbing and betraying their allies to cover up their 'secret'.

So what is so 'unique' about the DA/Fallen? To me, it just seems like a overly contrived way of making them special.

Now with 100% more blog: 'Beyond the Wall'

Numine Et Arcu
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

“When you have lied for so long you no longer fear what you have lied about, but you fear the lie itself being discovered”

The dark angels have lied for so long and have covered it up with increasingly extreme actions that half the legion going traitor no longer matters, what matters is the cover up.

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




The original Angels lied because there were a lot of Traitors between the garrison that turned and marines Luther created beyond that and as I recall Luther got beefed up by Chaos like a discount Horus. That, their planet exploding and them having a Warp beast infestation is very problematic in a time when they were really cracking down on treachery.

Now in 40k it's less the Fallen but more the fact the DA have done a spectacular amount of team killing to keep their secret that forces them to be silent.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

The Dark Angels Legion was 'fractured' before the Heresy - the Dark Angels encountered by Russ in the Alaxxes Nebula knew nothing of the Dulan Campaign / Lion and Wolf duel, for example.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

There were also a lot of the Fallen that were "scattered across time" when Caliban blew up. So the DAs are afraid of these Fallen reappearing with fresh knowledge (i.e first hand accounts) of what happened during the Heresy.
This is why DAs will often abandon certain objectives if even rumors of a Fallen are nearby and can be captured.

-

   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




Also the Lion used forbidden technology to travel the warp. Did the lion travel to terra to defend the emperor after imperium secundus?
   
Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine






Northumberland

@Formosa - That I can understand, and agree it seems likely, but it also seems like extraordinarily lazy writing - 'Oh, and these are the Dark Angels, they did something not so bad or special ages ago, and now they're super paranoid someone might find out - that's why they're super special!'

@pm713 - Again, I'd disagree to an extent, because as mentioned in my OP, the White Scars also had a significant Traitor element - which is known about and does not produce such levels of paranoia. Furthermore, the fact that their planet has Warp-Beasts should make no difference - the Emperor himself visited Caliban and apparently showed no doubts about allow the DA to be based there despite it's history. The team killing I can agree upon, but as per my above point - seems like poor writing.

Now with 100% more blog: 'Beyond the Wall'

Numine Et Arcu
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Formosa - That I can understand, and agree it seems likely, but it also seems like extraordinarily lazy writing - 'Oh, and these are the Dark Angels, they did something not so bad or special ages ago, and now they're super paranoid someone might find out - that's why they're super special!'

@pm713 - Again, I'd disagree to an extent, because as mentioned in my OP, the White Scars also had a significant Traitor element - which is known about and does not produce such levels of paranoia. Furthermore, the fact that their planet has Warp-Beasts should make no difference - the Emperor himself visited Caliban and apparently showed no doubts about allow the DA to be based there despite it's history. The team killing I can agree upon, but as per my above point - seems like poor writing.


A lot of this has to do with how retcons have changed things over the years. Before they started the HH series it was fairly black and white, the traitor legions were mostly traitors having purged any loyalists left on Istavaan III and the loyal legions where almost entirely loyal. The Dark Angels where a big exception to that. A good chunk went bad and the Lion in the older fluff didn't have a great reason for not getting to Terra faster than he did. His legion was all ready dodging rumors of him waiting it out before going with the winner. Add to that Luther (His second in command ) had gone traitor puts him in a bind. At best it looks like his Legion sat out the war and when the imperium won, half still decided to back Chaos. So we need to cover that all up. Since then GW has shown that pretty much every legion had conflicts, though to counter the White Scars loyalty worries in particular, the legions on Terra probably get a bit a of a pass since they where there during the darkest hour.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

elodingens wrote:
Also the Lion used forbidden technology to travel the warp. Did the lion travel to terra to defend the emperor after imperium secundus?
That too. It is speculated that the Lion, who was typically quick to make strategic decisions, intentionally stalled to wait to see the obvious victor before committing to the battle. But by then it was too late.
It was uncharacteristic of the Lion to have done this. Some accounts from the fallen claim that they did what they did because they thought the Lion had turned to Chaos.
So you have 2 halves of the legion that think the other fell to Chaos and the "secret" the DAs have been hiding is the shame that they were either right or wrong.
If they were right, then half their legion turned, and they don't want the Imperium to know.
If they were wrong, then they doomed half their legion for no reason and also don't want the Imperium to know.

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/14 14:54:08


   
Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine






Northumberland

Now that sounds more likely - thanks for the info. Personally, I quite like the more nuanced retcons, in the sense that it makes a lot more sense for there to be closet loyalists/traitors on almost all sides. I'm surprised then that GW didn't recognise how their retcons had skewed DA lore to be almost pointless. Perhaps it's something they'll address later on - because currently, in my mind at least, it sticks out as being rather unreasonable.

Now with 100% more blog: 'Beyond the Wall'

Numine Et Arcu
 
   
Made in us
Abel





Washington State

The Chaos Powers wanted to sow chaos in the Galaxy. They don't want to take over the Imperium, they just want to destroy the order it brings. Each Legion perfected a style of warfare and epitomized a certain characteristic of war. For the Dark Angels, they were the most honorable and loyal Legion of the Imperium. The Chaos Powers turned that honor and loyalty against themselves, twisting the bonds of loyalty the Dark Angels had, and then fooling fully half the Legion into thinking they were in the right, and that the Emperor who they had sworn undying loyalty to had betrayed them. The Lion returns to Caliban, they fight a civil war, and their planet blows up and the traitor Dark Angels are thrown into the Warp by the Chaos Powers.

Now, think about what's going on in the Imperium. They just fought a civil war, and everyone's loyalty to the Throne is questioned. Those that are found lacking are killed and erased from the Imperium's "Scrolls of Honor". Here you have the Dark Angels where honor and loyalty is everything, and during the HH, they displayed the ultimate disloyalty and dishonor. Burning shame and pride drives the Dark Angels to only acknowledge some horrible battle destroyed Caliban and half the Legion. They keep the traitor Dark Angels a secret, vow to hunt them down and maintain their secret. And thus, their betrayal is never known by the High Lords of Terra who take over governing the Imperium after the Emperor ascends to the Golden Throne.

It's shame, pride, and revenge that now drive the Dark Angels. All the way to the point of actually attacking Loyalist Imperial Forces to maintain their secret.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




At this point they can't really change what the dark angels did with out stripping away what makes them them. Though at this point they are so far down a bad path they don't have any choice but to continue. They have murdered, betrayed or otherwise screwed over so many other imperial forces that they can't risk it leaking. That along with the whole totally not still a legion.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Formosa - That I can understand, and agree it seems likely, but it also seems like extraordinarily lazy writing - 'Oh, and these are the Dark Angels, they did something not so bad or special ages ago, and now they're super paranoid someone might find out - that's why they're super special!'

@pm713 - Again, I'd disagree to an extent, because as mentioned in my OP, the White Scars also had a significant Traitor element - which is known about and does not produce such levels of paranoia. Furthermore, the fact that their planet has Warp-Beasts should make no difference - the Emperor himself visited Caliban and apparently showed no doubts about allow the DA to be based there despite it's history. The team killing I can agree upon, but as per my above point - seems like poor writing.



If you boil it down to something as simple as that, for example

Blood angels have a bit of a fixation of blood and are quite angry at times.

It ignores the context of the flaw, the dark angels are riddled with self doubt, it can be crippling and because of that flaw they condone and commit terrible acts that would have them excommunicated if found out, they are traitors to their legacy and have betrayed the imperium many times in the name of a lie... and the shame it brings.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Formosa - That I can understand, and agree it seems likely, but it also seems like extraordinarily lazy writing - 'Oh, and these are the Dark Angels, they did something not so bad or special ages ago, and now they're super paranoid someone might find out - that's why they're super special!'

@pm713 - Again, I'd disagree to an extent, because as mentioned in my OP, the White Scars also had a significant Traitor element - which is known about and does not produce such levels of paranoia. Furthermore, the fact that their planet has Warp-Beasts should make no difference - the Emperor himself visited Caliban and apparently showed no doubts about allow the DA to be based there despite it's history. The team killing I can agree upon, but as per my above point - seems like poor writing.

The Emperor also okayed Magnus and look at how that turned out.

The thing to bear in mind is that at Caliban the Angels also lost their homeworld and their Primarch which really messes with their heads. They weren't really thinking straight and after that it was a case of "we could come clean about an attempted second Heresy but then we'd have to explain the hiding records and assassinations." It does make sense but like most of 40k it suffers from the fact that things have to end a certain way because they're adding detail after the fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galef wrote:
elodingens wrote:
Also the Lion used forbidden technology to travel the warp. Did the lion travel to terra to defend the emperor after imperium secundus?
That too. It is speculated that the Lion, who was typically quick to make strategic decisions, intentionally stalled to wait to see the obvious victor before committing to the battle. But by then it was too late.
It was uncharacteristic of the Lion to have done this. Some accounts from the fallen claim that they did what they did because they thought the Lion had turned to Chaos.
So you have 2 halves of the legion that think the other fell to Chaos and the "secret" the DAs have been hiding is the shame that they were either right or wrong.
If they were right, then half their legion turned, and they don't want the Imperium to know.
If they were wrong, then they doomed half their legion for no reason and also don't want the Imperium to know.

-

GW really spoiled that element by going down the route of 100% loyal Lion

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/14 15:13:44


tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine






Northumberland

Hmmm - so perhaps I'm thinking to linearly about it. From the comments here, it's not the act itself, but the context of the act and the damaging attempts to hide an otherwise insignificant event that is the real secret. Essentially, it's not the Fallen they are hiding, it's the fact that in the course of attempting to wreak vengeance upon the Fallen for vengeance's sake, they have systematically betrayed the ideals they originally fought for - forsaking brothers, allies and the Imperium at large all in an effort to hide something that, in reality, was rather insignificant to begin with to anyone outside the Legion itself. It's really self-doubt fuelling self-hatred, fuelling the need to hide such self-hatred from any outsiders. All of which creates an inescapable loop of damnation, being dragged down a path of self-perpetuation. Now that, as someone with anxiety, I really can understand. Thanks for the enlightening people - I kind of get the DA's 'thing' now

Now with 100% more blog: 'Beyond the Wall'

Numine Et Arcu
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Hmmm - so perhaps I'm thinking to linearly about it. From the comments here, it's not the act itself, but the context of the act and the damaging attempts to hide an otherwise insignificant event that is the real secret. Essentially, it's not the Fallen they are hiding, it's the fact that in the course of attempting to wreak vengeance upon the Fallen for vengeance's sake, they have systematically betrayed the ideals they originally fought for - forsaking brothers, allies and the Imperium at large all in an effort to hide something that, in reality, was rather insignificant to begin with to anyone outside the Legion itself. It's really self-doubt fuelling self-hatred, fuelling the need to hide such self-hatred from any outsiders. All of which creates an inescapable loop of damnation, being dragged down a path of self-perpetuation. Now that, as someone with anxiety, I really can understand. Thanks for the enlightening people - I kind of get the DA's 'thing' now


Bingo

They are the architects of their own downfall, I can’t remember the chaplains name but he realised this and even told astelan that he was right.
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Ellicott City, MD

My opinion is that at the time the surviving DA were concerned with how it might fall out if they told the truth. The siege of terra was just broken and the traitor legions were being pursued to the Eye of Terror. The DA would have had to go back to the Imperium, who at the time didn't really have a single solid leader since the Emperor was just interned in the Golden Throne and explain that half of their Legion went rogue, their Primarch is MIA, and sure we missed the siege of Terra, but we're still loyal, honest.

Odds are not bad that at the time, with the given situation, that the legion may have been branded traitors just to avoid the risk of being back stabbed by the Legion during that period.

And then once you've told the lie, you can't stop all of a sudden and the Imperium just got more paranoid and shoot first, ask questions later as time went on.

Vonjankmon
Death Korp of Krieg
Dark Angels 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Warpig1815 wrote:
Hmmm - so perhaps I'm thinking to linearly about it. From the comments here, it's not the act itself, but the context of the act and the damaging attempts to hide an otherwise insignificant event that is the real secret. Essentially, it's not the Fallen they are hiding, it's the fact that in the course of attempting to wreak vengeance upon the Fallen for vengeance's sake, they have systematically betrayed the ideals they originally fought for - forsaking brothers, allies and the Imperium at large all in an effort to hide something that, in reality, was rather insignificant to begin with to anyone outside the Legion itself. It's really self-doubt fuelling self-hatred, fuelling the need to hide such self-hatred from any outsiders. All of which creates an inescapable loop of damnation, being dragged down a path of self-perpetuation. Now that, as someone with anxiety, I really can understand. Thanks for the enlightening people - I kind of get the DA's 'thing' now


Considering the chapter is a referance to the poet Lionel Johnson and his Poem the Dark Angel it makes a lot of sense, given the poem is basicly about his own self doubt and self hate for his homosexuality well being a catholic.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





If and when they do release the Lion as a Primarch, the DA storyline will have to move forward as well.

I'd like to believe the Lion would cut through the BS immediately, drop the act, and instead begin a new Crusade against all Chaos agents, with extreme prejudice to any Fallen most of all. The Chapter and all its successors might even start a Monster Hunt for all his Daemon Primarch brothers.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The next loyalist will either be him or Russ. Since GW dropped off Cypher on Terra during the end times, my money is the Lion is up.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





HoundsofDemos wrote:
The next loyalist will either be him or Russ. Since GW dropped off Cypher on Terra during the end times, my money is the Lion is up.


Cypher has already moved on, and it's strongly suggested in Codex Custodes that he's snuck into Imperium Nihlus

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

I think the problem is with dark angels is non of their secrets are secret anymore. We know them all.

I think the lion would be a great next primarch as it would create questions and doubt which would be great. He could easily lock horns with roboute and is it because he is traitor or power hungry or acting in the best interests.

The wolf would be good if he comes back some warp tainted werewolf or demon thing. Shake things up a bit.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Andykp wrote:
I think the problem is with dark angels is non of their secrets are secret anymore. We know them all.

I think the lion would be a great next primarch as it would create questions and doubt which would be great. He could easily lock horns with roboute and is it because he is traitor or power hungry or acting in the best interests.

The wolf would be good if he comes back some warp tainted werewolf or demon thing. Shake things up a bit.


there's shake things up and there's "seriously risk pissing off legions of fans" it's honestly why bringing back some of the primarchs is easier then others, Gulliman is little changed from the man we've grown to know in the HH books. a Massivly changed Russ though runs the risk of SERIOUS backlash.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

BrianDavion wrote:
Andykp wrote:
I think the problem is with dark angels is non of their secrets are secret anymore. We know them all.

I think the lion would be a great next primarch as it would create questions and doubt which would be great. He could easily lock horns with roboute and is it because he is traitor or power hungry or acting in the best interests.

The wolf would be good if he comes back some warp tainted werewolf or demon thing. Shake things up a bit.


there's shake things up and there's "seriously risk pissing off legions of fans" it's honestly why bringing back some of the primarchs is easier then others, Gulliman is little changed from the man we've grown to know in the HH books. a Massivly changed Russ though runs the risk of SERIOUS backlash.


We are a touchy lot too. I’m happy to suggest a demon Russ because I’m not at all invested in him as a character. So wouldn’t mind what they do. Lion they could do and not change much. It wouldn’t be a stretch for him to disagree with roboute and cause drama.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Andykp wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Andykp wrote:
I think the problem is with dark angels is non of their secrets are secret anymore. We know them all.

I think the lion would be a great next primarch as it would create questions and doubt which would be great. He could easily lock horns with roboute and is it because he is traitor or power hungry or acting in the best interests.

The wolf would be good if he comes back some warp tainted werewolf or demon thing. Shake things up a bit.


there's shake things up and there's "seriously risk pissing off legions of fans" it's honestly why bringing back some of the primarchs is easier then others, Gulliman is little changed from the man we've grown to know in the HH books. a Massivly changed Russ though runs the risk of SERIOUS backlash.


We are a touchy lot too. I’m happy to suggest a demon Russ because I’m not at all invested in him as a character. So wouldn’t mind what they do. Lion they could do and not change much. It wouldn’t be a stretch for him to disagree with roboute and cause drama.


right on the other hand, the people who ARE invested in him as a character are the ones likely to BUY him as a mini. So their opinion on the matter is gonna be really important. and we all know the story line, what happens to the minis etc is going to be driven by market forces

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

You’re right so bring back the lion. Most interesting story changes with out big character changes. IMO the other loyalist ones are pretty dull. Even the really dead ones.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

You could achieve a pretty big change with guilliman walking up to azrael and just saying

“I know”

That’s a story worth reading right there
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

The lion could mix things up pretty good.
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Just wanted to add on my own thoughts regarding the White Scars and other traitors in loyalist legions.

No one cares about the White Scars. I don't mean in the fandom, but in setting. They were literally forgotten about by many elements of the Imperium and tend to use that to their benefit to avoid scrutiny.

But the Dark Angels are different. They are The First Legion. the legion that helped end the War of Unification and which were the first to fight alongside the Emperor. They have a reputation and the eyes of the Imperium are on them. Or at least that's what they believed. They are the First Legion and they had the ego to go with it. They likely put themselves in the same category as the Custodes, who were also first to fight alongside the Emperor, and with similar expectations of themselves. The Custodes have never had one of their own turn traitor. For the Dark Angels to have so many of their own turn would be seen as a complete upheaval of that original image. That's why I feel the Fallen are a much bigger deal for the Dark Angels.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/15 14:20:43


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Andykp wrote:
I think the problem is with dark angels is non of their secrets are secret anymore. We know them all.

I think the lion would be a great next primarch as it would create questions and doubt which would be great. He could easily lock horns with roboute and is it because he is traitor or power hungry or acting in the best interests.

The wolf would be good if he comes back some warp tainted werewolf or demon thing. Shake things up a bit.

He's not a traitor. Apparently neither is Guilliman. Great how GW is so passionate about killing off interesting storylines like that in advance.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
 
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