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So I've noticed a lack of differentiation between any competitive lists for C:SM and I was wondering if anyone has had any ideas or luck with something different?

What is your definition of competitive?

I suppose being more competitive would mean an easier time dealing with real tuff stuff like Custodians or things that are really hard to hit like Craftworlds.

File it under B for BIN.
Buy 3 dawneagle dbags, IG CP farm and add some forgeworld stuff in a vanilla marine detachment if you feel the need.

A couple of things going for marines...

1) Very likely you'll see some points drops in Chapter Approved. It's almost a must. If you see none, or not enough it'll be a bad sign.

2) You can always look to Forgeworld to pick up some good units which exceed some of those in the normal codex. However that's expensive and resin.

3) Primaris are the way forward....and because of that you can expect many dozens more releases over the next several years, all aimed at Primaris. It's very possible (even likely) that these units will be progressively better and better. So you can at least expect a large number of new units...meaning the future could hold anything. This is also a damn good way to eventually let the old marine line faulter in a couple years time.

You can have fun with marines, but you won't be winning tournaments or beating tough lists with just the codex most of the time.

Codex: Space Marines is already viable. That's why lists from the dex win tournaments, continue to place highly in tournaments, are still by and far the most popular army and have a huge, well supported model line allowing for literally thousands of different army builds.

RULE #1 PLEASE - BrookM

Another marines complaint thread?

Ice_can wrote:
File it under B for BIN.
Buy 3 dawneagle dbags, IG CP farm and add some forgeworld stuff in a vanilla marine detachment if you feel the need.

Then burn your whole army when 9th comes around and invalidates everything. Don´t forget to film the show and post it on youtube.

 Strg Alt wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
File it under B for BIN.
Buy 3 dawneagle dbags, IG CP farm and add some forgeworld stuff in a vanilla marine detachment if you feel the need.

Then burn your whole army when 9th comes around and invalidates everything. Don´t forget to film the show and post it on youtube.

Hey we are not all WHFB till we die people 40K evolves, but seriously who can advise in good conscience that vanilla marine codex is a tournament winning codex?

Without soup (Knight, IG and so) the only options is Forgeworld or some kind of one-trick pony.

I've got some satisfaction with the Mortis Dreadnought (that you can easily convert without purchasing directly from FW).

Another specific options is a SW hero + Darkslamcaptain / Ravenwing Lt (TH/SS when available, Wolf and Lion stratagem).

My suggestion, however, is to select 1 or 2 chapters for their Stratagems, and then mix Astartes in a detachment to have the tool you need (Slamcaptain for h2h, plasma for DA and so on). Imperium may be dead as detachment keyword: Adeptus Astartes isn't.

But I'm hardly an hardcore tournament player. ^^

 Hollow wrote:
Codex: Space Marines is already viable. That's why lists from the dex win tournaments, continue to place highly in tournaments, are still by and far the most popular army and have a huge, well supported model line allowing for literally thousands of different army builds.

RULE #1 PLEASE - BrookM

About 95% of blood angel units are unplayable crap right now, so unless you are talking about thunderfures and centurions, i have to disagree.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Another marines complaint thread?

I really wasn't looking to start a complaint thread. I was hoping for some actual advice on how to handle stuff like Custodians. The most effective thing I've heard is to do mortal wounds to them but I'm not sure how to dish those out in solid numbers with C:SM.

dkoz wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Another marines complaint thread?

I really wasn't looking to start a complaint thread. I was hoping for some actual advice on how to handle stuff like Custodians. The most effective thing I've heard is to do mortal wounds to them but I'm not sure how to dish those out in solid numbers with C:SM.

Removed - BrookM

Your best bet is going to be Raven Guard. Simple as that.

dkoz wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Another marines complaint thread?

I really wasn't looking to start a complaint thread. I was hoping for some actual advice on how to handle stuff like Custodians. The most effective thing I've heard is to do mortal wounds to them but I'm not sure how to dish those out in solid numbers with C:SM.

It's the 3rd or 4th thread in a row about Space Marines circling around a mismatch between expectations and performance.


Buuuut. Here's what I've been doing, and I've been able to handle Custodes on a couple occasions now. I take a generic Captain, and use the Stratagem to upgrade him to a Chapter Master. I take a Lt. Give them whatever, I do Powerfist and Storm Bolter for each, just cause that's what I have at the moment. Then 3 Devastator Squads, like so:

Devastators (8-9), +Cherub. 4 Plasma Cannons.
Devastators (8-9), +Cherub. 3 Plasma Cannons, 1 Heavy Bolter
Devastators (8-9), +Cherub. 3 Plasma Cannons, 1 Missile Launcher

Then a Company Ancient, giving him the Relic Banner.

The above is sorta the mainstay of my shooting. Plasma Cannons are cheaper than other heavy weapon options, but quite versatile. They're volatile, but I only lose a couple per game to overcharge with the rerolls, and when they die they can shoot again with the banner.

The rest of my army is usualy Tac Marines and some combination of transports, currently 4 Rhinos and a Razorback. Lots of guns on the Tacs. UM tactics to keep shooting after CC and the Ld bonus. This setup took on a Custodes list a few weeks back and handled it quite well.



Removed - BrookM

Did some editing here and I would like to remind all participants here that rule #1 is not optional.

Well, I can't speak to making them 'competitive'. Forge World units help, and if you're not partial to allies- you could always have an IG Tank Regiment painted in similar colors to your chapter with a bit of their heraldry on them- "This Regiment Served with [CHAPTER] during [INSERT CONFLICT A LONG TIME AGO] and now proudly bears [SYMBOL] on their war machines and forged an alliance of respect"

To me, 'viable' just means it's something fun to use and looks cool.

My main issue, which is not unique to marines is that taking anything resembling a fluffy marine army hurts me. The more power armored guys I take, the less competitive I am and our transports are kinda meh. If I replicate a demi battle company or full company I have a list that isn't that good.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
My main issue, which is not unique to marines is that taking anything resembling a fluffy marine army hurts me. The more power armored guys I take, the less competitive I am and our transports are kinda meh. If I replicate a demi battle company or full company I have a list that isn't that good.

Most people assume that, but I take the exact opposite approach and take 70-80+ power armored guys, making it basically a skew list with a lot of shield bodies to take damage, plus transports to further defend it. Multi-wound weapons are basically a waste against straight old-school power armor, and big squads can soak damage pretty well. Old school marines can pack plenty of heavy weapons into a list, and with commander and lt. Buffs they do a lot of work.

Nobody here believes me, but that's just how it is.

I'm going to assume we're trying to make a mono-marine list here and not some variant of soup, correct? Because until CP generation gets changed soup basically saves Marines from the shelf.

Your strongest choice at this point in time is going to be Deathwatch, especially for Primaris. Generally after that the Blood Angels are fairly strong (Space Wolves look like they're shaping to be fairly solid too), Dark Angels after them (depending on how much you like plasma), and Vanilla chapters last (RG being the top dog there, and Imperial Fists being my vote for the next best on the list due to ignoring cover making it easier to get stuff off objectives).

Grey Knights are so far down the barrel they're actually under it right now so we're going to ignore them as an option.

The first recommendation I'd have though is not to choose an army based on what the meta says about them but rather what you like first. Once you've chosen that you'll want to look at leveraging their strengths and minimizing your weaknesses.

For example, I'm working on Primaris Imperial Fists (a project that has gravitated to me working on a Primaris Imperial Fists legion due to wanting to go all out in how the Primaris units feel very legion-eske in wargear loadouts). Now the Primaris and the Imperial Fists are both groups that gravitate towards shooting. To make my shooting even better I've opted for taking the Storm of Fire warlord trait as it turns 6s to wound into being an additional -1 AP. To capitalize on that I'm looking at including a Primaris LT to also give me rerolls to wound (helping me get more 6s) and taking larger squads. I'm also taking an Ancient with the relic banner to give me more shooting as I lose models (on a 3+) who will also help keep my larger squads from having to deal with moral from losing models.

And to ensure I'm in range the basic goal of the army is to move up to the middle of the board (or onto a key objective near mid board) and establish a firebase. Other parts of my army will be broken off into mini-firebases (Hellblasters with a dreadnought for the Wisdom of the Ancients re-rolls for example) or to take pressure of my fire base by hitting their rearlines (Bolter Inceptors, Reivers with Carbines) while protecting my own backlines from deep strikers while holding objectives in the rear (MSU squads of Intercessors).

I mean that's a very basic overview of what I'm working on/towards but basically the point is that start with something you like, even if it's not the best, and then figure out what niche that army fills and work on filling that niche while mitigating the things your army isn't good at. The rest is fine-tuning for the meta and your experience in how to play that army effectively. Learning how to win with an army takes time, and if you're going to lose some games, I'd rather do it with an army I enjoy playing with and challenges me in ways that I find interesting over some flavor of the month that is likely to see the nerf bat in CA or an errata.

One point of personal choice I'll admit that may make me less competitive is I do not nor every will buy, assemble or field a single primaris marine. I would sooner quit the game entirely than reward GW for the worst thing they could have done game or fluff wise.

I like the Primaris marines the look great.

Points cost reductions around the board, while also reducing costs for elite infantry and adding new special rules.

Currently Space Marines are not viable due to codex creep...

Land Raiders, Terminators, Centurions, Most Special Characters are not worth taking compared to Aggressors and Hellblasters.... They are too darn expensive to take. As most of your list will be taken over by that unit.

They are as current not cost effective, Terminators cannot walk and shoot with heavy weapons without penalty meaning that Terminators are either an assault squad (which is expensive) or all storm bolters and a heavy flamer which means they lack range.... 2 wounds is great but their points counter (aggressors) have more toughness and are harder to kill and do waaay more damage.

dkoz wrote:
I like the Primaris marines the look great.

The models are great for the most part, I hate the background though and because of that I have no interest in them.

I've been running Imperial Fists in a local Slow-Grow, and currently I'm leading the league by a mile (beating out pretty much all other armies, including IG, Dark Eldar, and Custodes). Like some others, I've been using the Storm of Fire warlord trait to boost the potential damage of my shooting. We just finished our 1500 point league event, and will be playing at 1750 this weekend. This is what I'm currently running:

Battalion 1:
1x Captain with Stormbolter (upgraded to Primarch's Wrath relic) and Chainsword (upgraded to Chapter Master for 3 CP)
1x Lieutenant
3x 5-man Scout Squads with bolters
1x Devastator Squad with 9 marines + Armorium Cherub, 4 heavy bolters
2x Rhinos with double Stormbolters
1x Razorback with Twin Heavy Bolters, Stormbolter, Hunter-Killer Missile

Battalion 2:
1x Gravis Captain
1x Terminator Captain with Thunder Hammer, Stormshield
3x 5-man Primaris Intercessor Squads
3x Predators with Autocannon, Heavy Bolter sponsons, Stormbolter, Hunter-Killer Missile

The basic idea is a mobile gunline. Deployment is extremely important, as my deployment will vary greatly depending on the army my opponent will be playing. Against other long-ranged shooting forces, I will deploy very conservatively, such as starting with the Devastators in a Rhino behind terrain, and hiding my Predators to the best of my ability. Against mid or short-range shooting armies, or assault armies, I can deploy much more liberally, allowing my Predators and Devastators to start the game in LOS of valuable enemy targets. The Rhinos (and possibly Razorback, depending on the game) are used to clear away chaff infantry and then assault into the enemy guns, or the more mobile enemy chargers (such as Custodes Shield Captains on bikes). I have found the Rhinos to be the most valuable part of my army in that they are tough enough to survive against most things for a round of combat, denying enemy units the ability to shoot or charge. Against enemies that will likely kill a Rhino in a single round of combat, the Rhinos can usually move far enough to block their charge lanes, or be in the way of potential landing sites for units with FLY.

Also, Hellfire Rounds and Kill Shot are used when able and necessary. I generally expect a Predator to die on turn 1 as folks are very afraid of Killshot. The Terminator Captain and the Gravis Captain are okay. I use them as counter-charge or bully units, but don't expect a ton out of them. If I wanted to make the list more competitive, I would drop both and add another basic Captain and Lieutenant and use the points I saved for possibly another Devastator Squad or some such.

How do you deal with Knight Titans with that list?

Space marines currently struggle to use their best units (terminators, centurions, basically any of their elite or heavy infantry, assualt marines, devastators, land raiders, whirlwinds, vindicators, apothecaries, and sternguard) while both were severely unpowered this edition.

 Asherian Command wrote:
How do you deal with Knight Titans with that list?

I've only gone up against one Knight so far, and for the most part I just ignored it. It's important to note that so far I've only played up to 1500 points, so the one Knight I played against took up a very large chunk of the army. I used my Rhinos and Razorback to limit what he could charge since Knights can't move over vehicles, and just killed almost everything else and won on objectives. It won't work every time, but I haven't gone up against a list that I didn't feel as though I had any chance of victory.

 Insectum7 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
My main issue, which is not unique to marines is that taking anything resembling a fluffy marine army hurts me. The more power armored guys I take, the less competitive I am and our transports are kinda meh. If I replicate a demi battle company or full company I have a list that isn't that good.

Most people assume that, but I take the exact opposite approach and take 70-80+ power armored guys, making it basically a skew list with a lot of shield bodies to take damage, plus transports to further defend it. Multi-wound weapons are basically a waste against straight old-school power armor, and big squads can soak damage pretty well. Old school marines can pack plenty of heavy weapons into a list, and with commander and lt. Buffs they do a lot of work.

Nobody here believes me, but that's just how it is.

Because marines aren't good at taking damage for their cost. Taking more just makes your list more fragile.

 CommunistNapkin wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
How do you deal with Knight Titans with that list?

I've only gone up against one Knight so far, and for the most part I just ignored it. It's important to note that so far I've only played up to 1500 points, so the one Knight I played against took up a very large chunk of the army. I used my Rhinos and Razorback to limit what he could charge since Knights can't move over vehicles, and just killed almost everything else and won on objectives. It won't work every time, but I haven't gone up against a list that I didn't feel as though I had any chance of victory.

Yeah on annihilation missions you can easily get destroyed as there is no proper counter for dealing with knight titans. If only grav weapons were super effective against them.

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
My main issue, which is not unique to marines is that taking anything resembling a fluffy marine army hurts me. The more power armored guys I take, the less competitive I am and our transports are kinda meh. If I replicate a demi battle company or full company I have a list that isn't that good.

Most people assume that, but I take the exact opposite approach and take 70-80+ power armored guys, making it basically a skew list with a lot of shield bodies to take damage, plus transports to further defend it. Multi-wound weapons are basically a waste against straight old-school power armor, and big squads can soak damage pretty well. Old school marines can pack plenty of heavy weapons into a list, and with commander and lt. Buffs they do a lot of work.

Nobody here believes me, but that's just how it is.

Because marines aren't good at taking damage for their cost. Taking more just makes your list more fragile.

That comes down to your meta. Some metas don't load up on autocannons like they're on a clearance sale at the Munititorium.

Dissy cannons? Plasma? Dark reapers? Even weird gak like primaris gatling weapons are super effective. If you rely on power armor in cover, drukhari splinter has some bad news for you.

It's always better to pay 4 pts/w than 13 pts/w at this point in 8th.