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My local meta is fairly small and we tend to stick to 1000 point games. Several people are looking at Custodes as a 2nd (or 3rd, or 4th ... or 7th in one case) force for "reasons", I'm wondering what Custodes players think of their army as a mono-build at this point and how well they think it would perform at that low of a points cap.

Thanks in advance.

The Newman wrote:
My local meta is fairly small and we tend to stick to 1000 point games. Several people are looking at Custodes as a 2nd (or 3rd, or 4th ... or 7th in one case) force for "reasons", I'm wondering what Custodes players think of their army as a mono-build at this point and how well they think it would perform at that low of a points cap.

Thanks in advance.

There's two main facets to this:

1. Are they competitive at 1k?
I think they're fine. Not tournament winning, but overall I think the lower point cost generally works slightly in Custodes favour. Your enemy will really struggle to take much that seriously threatens them in any kind of volume. The usually Custodes issue of it being difficult to control the board stands, but that's a much more level playing field at 1k too.

2. Are they fun at 1k?
Well the main issue here is you're super restricted in what you can take. You really want a Battalion, and if you've decided that, then most of your list is already decided. My 1k build is:

2x Shield Captains on Jetbike
3x Custodian Guard squads (min size, spears)
Allarus Vexilla with Magnifica.

And that's you done. There's not a massive amount you can change without hamstringing yourself really.

I think some people are thinking a Vanguard with 1 jetbike captain, a 3x3 of Dawn Eagles, and a missle upgrade ot two might be beefy enough to ride the raw stat line to victory with just 4 CPs for rerolls or a critical counter-charge somewhere.

The Newman wrote:
I think some people are thinking a Vanguard with 1 jetbike captain, a 3x3 of Dawn Eagles

It's workable, but might be invalid at 1k after the next chapter approved if the units see any points hikes.

Depending on how much the points change come CA, it may still be doable to take a regular or Allarus Captain and 9 bikes instead of a Dawn Eagle Captain.

All bikes is certainly a bit stronger than a battalion, just due to raw offensive output and mobility. Many lists at 1k can barely make a dent in them before getting totally out-muscled by dakka and lances. I only take them when I know I'm facing a challenge.

Just run an outrider or patrol and fit as many bikes in as humanly possible. They're OP.

Not as good as running a detachment of Guard to go alongside it, but almost certainly viable outside of the most competitive formats.

It's okay. The bikes are pretty annoying but the Custodes alone don't seem to be able to shoot enough, for the most part, even with their FW units.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just run an outrider or patrol and fit as many bikes in as humanly possible. They're OP.

Sadly, you are correct that this is probably the best build.

If this is for casual games I'd say go with the Battalion though. It'll be more fun for everyone!

I've found my opponent's Custodes really solid at 1000 points. With shields and a lack of being smote by the other side, the're really solid.
The trick is managing CPs, 3 is likely and 4 is the best at that level.

Remember though, if you follow matched play/ organized event rules, at 1000points you have a rule of 2, not of 3, so 3x3 Bikes would be invalid.
Not saying everybody does this, but my impression is that many playgroups have adopted the rule of 3 in all games, so likely rule of 2 for 1000points would be counted as well.

That's still 40 Lascannon shots to one-round them on average dice. 17 assault variant Hellblasters can also do it if they overload, although you are certain to lose some of them doing it.

I won a local tournament pretty handily with Custodes bikes at 1250, it’s nicely rounded and can either kill or ignore most of the threats you see at that points level. My list was 2x bike captains, 3x3 bikes, and a vexilla for -1 to hit.

Yes, you can field a viable 1k army.

That said, as posters above said, because of the high cost of units, don't really expect a lot of diversity in your list, or a lot of room of play with options.

The Newman wrote:
That's still 40 Lascannon shots to one-round them on average dice. 17 assault variant Hellblasters can also do it if they overload, although you are certain to lose some of them doing it.

Can't fit even close to 40 lascannons into 1k points, and that's with AM. 234 points buys you 9 in 3xHWS' (a really really bad idea since these will be shot/charged first) and then you can squeeze in another 10 if you take two battalions. Average of 10.97 damage on Custodes, 14 with Cadian rerolls. But since those are all on D6 damage dice, some of that is guaranteed to be wasted if you roll a low-high sequence on any of the D rolls. The bikes in the meantime can pick up 43 guardsmen in the shooting phase alone if they go first. I'd bet on the Bikers for that matchup.

25 Hellblasters get 21.78 D through, enough to kill 5 bikers, so they might be able to get the job done in two rounds. Probably would bet on the Hellblasters for that one, but terrain and LOS would decide the game.

25 Hellblasters get 25 shots-by the time they're in Rapid Fire, they're mincemeat.

That's (assuming a Chapter Master and Lieutenant, of course):
25 shots
200/9 hits
1,400/81 wounds
700/81 failed saves
1,400/81 damage, or 17.28.

Double that with the Assault variation, since they can get to optimal range and be S7.

Of course, if Custodes get the first turn...

120 Bolter Shots
350/3 hits
175/3 wounds
175/9 unsaved, or about 10 dead Hellblasters.

And wait, I forgot about the Vexilla which they WILL have.

So yeah. Not good odds.

 JNAProductions wrote:
25 Hellblasters get 25 shots-by the time they're in Rapid Fire, they're mincemeat.

That's (assuming a Chapter Master and Lieutenant, of course):
25 shots
200/9 hits
1,400/81 wounds
700/81 failed saves
1,400/81 damage, or 17.28.

Double that with the Assault variation, since they can get to optimal range and be S7.

Of course, if Custodes get the first turn...

120 Bolter Shots
350/3 hits
175/3 wounds
175/9 unsaved, or about 10 dead Hellblasters.

And wait, I forgot about the Vexilla which they WILL have.

So yeah. Not good odds.

17.28 x 2 wounds out of assault Hellblasters is 11 dead bikes.

I figured the math differently because at 1000 points Custodes are going to struggle with the other things you have to add for any legal detachment. Even a Patrol is going to have to take at least one Custodian Guard squad, and you can't legally field a Vanguard at 1000 because you can't take the 3rd bike squad due to "Rule of 2" below 2000 points.

I figured that the most bikes you could legally squeeze into a patrol is 7, throw in a Dawneagle Captain and that's 28 wounds. Figuring in the Captain and Lieutenant rerolls it only takes 18 Assault Hellblasters to wipe out 28 wounds worth of Dawneagles, and there's enough points left in 1000 to add 3 basic Scout squads and an Ancient as well, so they'd take a chunk out of the bikes even if they don't get first turn. (Or take it as a Spearhead instead of trying to make a Battalion and swap the scouts for some other 165 point heavy option.)

I'm actually a little relieved that the influx of super-marines I'm expecting to see has a mathematically viable counter in my regular Marine codex.

The Newman wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
25 Hellblasters get 25 shots-by the time they're in Rapid Fire, they're mincemeat.

That's (assuming a Chapter Master and Lieutenant, of course):
25 shots
200/9 hits
1,400/81 wounds
700/81 failed saves
1,400/81 damage, or 17.28.

Double that with the Assault variation, since they can get to optimal range and be S7.

Of course, if Custodes get the first turn...

120 Bolter Shots
350/3 hits
175/3 wounds
175/9 unsaved, or about 10 dead Hellblasters.

And wait, I forgot about the Vexilla which they WILL have.

So yeah. Not good odds.

17.28 x 2 wounds out of assault Hellblasters is 11 dead bikes.

I figured the math differently because at 1000 points Custodes are going to struggle with the other things you have to add for any legal detachment. Even a Patrol is going to have to take at least one Custodian Guard squad, and you can't legally field a Vanguard at 1000 because you can't take the 3rd bike squad due to "Rule of 2" below 2000 points.

I figured that the most bikes you could legally squeeze into a patrol is 7, throw in a Dawneagle Captain and that's 28 wounds. Figuring in the Captain and Lieutenant rerolls it only takes 18 Assault Hellblasters to wipe out 28 wounds worth of Dawneagles, and there's enough points left in 1000 to add 3 basic Scout squads and an Ancient as well, so they'd take a chunk out of the bikes even if they don't get first turn. (Or take it as a Spearhead instead of trying to make a Battalion and swap the scouts for some other 165 point heavy option.)

I'm actually a little relieved that the influx of super-marines I'm expecting to see has a mathematically viable counter in my regular Marine codex.

Now wait, I'm getting lost here. (LATER ADDITION: I figured it out, you seem to have thought the Bikes have 3 wounds each. They have 4 wounds each).

25 Assault Hellblaster is 900 points. At 24", it's 50 shots on the Custodes Bikes. With re-rolling 1's to Hit and to Wound, but also getting -1 to Hit due to the Vexilla, it's 22.69 wounds. If they actually Advanced that turn to get in range than the -2 stacked penalty makes it 15.12 wounds. This is 900 points of Hellblasters, independent of the cost of a Captain and a Lieutenant. Let's just say it's basically the max amount of Hellblasters you can bring for a 1k point game.

22.69 wounds is 5.67 Jetbikes. 15.12 is 3.78 Jetbikes. In a 1k Patrol detachment with Vexilla, you can have 6.2 Jetbikes for a total of 24.8 wounds.

So if the Hellblasters got in range WITHOUT Advancing the turn they shoot, 1 Bike should survive. If the Hellblasters had to Advance to get in range (much more likely given the Bikes 14" Move and FLY over the Hellblaster's own 6" Move without FLY) then 2.42 Jetbikes should survive, plus the Captain and the Vexilla.

The 2.42 surviving Jetbikes should slay 3.89-5.83 of the Hellblasters in shooting (depending if 2 or 3 Bikes survived). The Captain defeats 1.94 more and the Vexilla is likely negligible (assumed he had the Axe). On the charge, the Captain+Bikes defeat an additional 18.72 Hellblasters (and that's just assuming 2 Bikes, not 3, AND they DO NOT use Avenge the Fallen to get an additional 8-9 attacks). That wipes out all the Hellblasters completely. The only way the Hellblasters avoid this is if somehow, the full 25 of them are positioned well at max range (thus making the Charge for the Custodes 7"-10") or all camped in Woods (for the -2" to Charges).

So the Hellblasters definitely hurt, and I know I went off on a tangent a bit after my initial confusion, but it looks like the Jetbikes are the favored army in this matchup pretty strongly.

Yeah, I got crossed up and read the bikes as 3 wounds instead of 4. That means two bikes (or more likely the captain) survive if the Hellblasters get to go first. I can't imagine why the Hellblasters would advance to get into range though, the sensible thing to do if they can't walk into range is back up out of the bike's advance+charge range.

Also, to put the Vexilla in the list you'd have to drop at least one bike, and -1 to hit makes the Hellblasters a lot more likely to explode and get to shoot again from the Ancient; I don't have the math on how much of a difference that makes.

The Newman wrote:
Yeah, I got crossed up and read the bikesnas 3 wounds instead of 4. That means two bikes (or more likely the captain) survive if the Hellblasters get to go first. I can't imagine why the Hellblasters would advance to get into range though, the sensible thing to do if they can't walk into range is back up out of the bike's advance+charge range.

Also, to put the Vexilla in the list you'd have to drop at least one bike, and -1 to hit makes the Hellblasters a lot more likely to explode and get to shoot again from the Ancient; I don't have the math on how much of a difference that makes.

The reason the Hellblasters would have to Advance is because otherwise the Bikes get to hit first. Not with the charge, but with their shooting. Hurricane Bolters are also 24". The Bikes move 14", which means they can stay out of the Hellblaster's 30" threat range and jump in to shoot first for the first strike (the Vexilla can Move+Advance or Deep Strike to keep them in range). If the Hellblasters keep falling back from this, they'll yield the entire center of the board. So they need to Advance and Shoot or stand their ground and get shot first.

Even outside Rapid Fire range, 6 Bikes + Captain is 42 shots, which kills 3-4 Hellblasters. Now they drop from 50 shots to 42-44. That works out better than Advancing for them (averaging 19.96 wounds compared to 15.12) so it's the strategically sensible option, but retaliation should still wipe them out.

There's no Ancient in this scenario because 25 Assault Hellblasters is 900 points even. We already added in a Captain and Lieutenant, which means these guys are at 1,000 (in fact, we are actually over by a little bit). You've got to drop Hellblasters to get an Ancient in there at this point. You DO get the Vexilla in what I described because they have 6 Bikes in what I outlined/calculated previously.

And there's no way to take 25 Hellblasters either, rule of 2 prevents it. I'd much rather have the Ancient, the 3 scout squads, and the 8 CPs. Playing Raven Guard that lets me do some proactive stuff to minimize the first turn damage if I go second.

The Newman wrote:
And there's no way to take 25 Hellblasters either, rule of 2 prevents it. I'd much rather have the Ancient, the 3 scout squads, and the 8 CPs. Playing Raven Guard that lets me do some proactive stuff to minimize the first turn damage if I go second.

I thought it was rule of 3, not rule of 2? did they change it?

BrianDavion wrote:

The Newman wrote:
And there's no way to take 25 Hellblasters either, rule of 2 prevents it. I'd much rather have the Ancient, the 3 scout squads, and the 8 CPs. Playing Raven Guard that lets me do some proactive stuff to minimize the first turn damage if I go second.

I thought it was rule of 3, not rule of 2? did they change it?

It's still the same. It changes at different point levels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:
And there's no way to take 25 Hellblasters either, rule of 2 prevents it. I'd much rather have the Ancient, the 3 scout squads, and the 8 CPs. Playing Raven Guard that lets me do some proactive stuff to minimize the first turn damage if I go second.

Oookay, so let's shift the goalposts and look at things again!

Now we have to build some kind of optimal setup. Let's get a Captain, give him Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Jet Pack. 3 bare minimum scouts. Ancient with Emperor Ascendant and 16 Hellblasters with Assault guns. Should be about 1k if you give the Lieutenant some goodies.

The Custodes stay the same, more or less. We have some flexibility room to put some Storm Shields on the Troops if we want or Misericordia on the Bikes.

I don't think I really need to elaborate that if the Hellblasters Advance to shoot first they end up a lot worse than before. They lost 18 shots compared to the previous analysis.

Where tm

We want to look is when the Bikes shoot first. Our shooting/wounding is the same and totals 3-4 defeated Hellblasters. About 2 get to shoot cause of the Ancient Which is about 1.8 wounds I think.

13 Hellblasters retaliate on their turn, which is like 11 wounds. 3 Bikes survive, ish, and retaliation on the Bike's turn is equal to or worse than before. So the Ancient doesn't make much difference and the Bikes should still be favored, though there is some outplay potential in every scenario.

I wouldn't take the tooled up Captain or Lieutenant either, the points are better spent on more Hellblasters. 18 Hellblasters will fit that way. Spending the 3 CPs for the chapter master upgrade is well worth it though. And while you did figure the counter-shots from the Hellblaster casualties inflicted by Bike fire, I don't think you included the extra shots from Hellblasters exploding.

Figure the rerolls and generating shots when plasma guns explode, 18 Hellblasters should inflict 26 wounds and wipe the bikes out wholesale if they go first (admittedly losing 6 men to explosions thanks to the Vexilla), and if they go second they should leave one bike alive. That still leaves the Vexilla, the Captain, and a Custodian Guard squad to deal with though, none of which are light targets.