Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Inspired by the Invuls as AP mods thread, I thought I'd jump this to it's own discussion.

For anyone who played Warhammer Fantasy before AoS, you'll remember Ward Saves.
These were Fantasy's equivalent to Invuls, but they worked more like Feel No Pain in prior 40K editions

Basically, you could roll your Armour save, and if it failed, you got to roll your Ward save too.
With 8E's AP system, many units don't really get much out of their Invuls, since their Armour save is rarely modified below their Invul.
Likewise, some units get no bonus for cover as their Invul is better than any armour they might get.

With this change units like Terminators and Daemon Infantry might get more use out of their Invul.
Terminators would basically get 2 Saves most of the time (thus solving their durability problem), while Daemons with a 6+ armour in cover would get a additional save against AP-0 weapons, thus making it worth trying to be in cover

-

Now, obviously there would need to be some tweaks to certain units/equipment. Storm shields would probably need to go to 4++. Likewise for any unit that also have a decent armour save as well as some rule that gives a 3++ or even 4++. Necron Wraiths and Lychguard with shields, Eldar Wraith Guard with shields, etc. These units could all get their Invul dropped by 1 value as they would get their Armour save (even if modified) in most cases, followed by their Invul.

Disgusting Resilince, Spirit Stones, and other rules that allow you to roll after Saves are failed would need to be address as well.
Even though my proposal of Invuls are different in function as they apply in the same manner as Armour Save, i.e. BEFORE damage is applied and is ignored by MWs, I feel like if a unit has an AFTER damage roll to ignore wounds, they would need to PICK which to roll.
Just like in Fantasy, only 1 "save" could be made after the failed initial Armour save.

So in the case of a DG Terminators, you would roll your Armour save first, and it failed, you have to pick either your Invul, or DR roll, but never both.
I like that there is not really a clear answer as to which would be better as the Invul is just 1 roll that would ignore all damage, yet the DR roll would be a roll per damage.
The Invul being an all or nothing gamble, whereas DR has better odds to ignore some of the wounds.

-

I do not object to this concept at all. As you've mentioned, you'd have to do a lot of fine tuning for various units in the game. My dark eldar vehicles end up taking their 5++ instead of their 4+s more often than not, but there are plenty of situations where I'd now be rolling a 4+ and then a 5++ or a 5+ and then a 5++. Which increases their durability against a lot of attacks that those invuls weren't necessarily meant to help against in the first place.

I'm not sure I'm on board with making FNP type effects an either/or with invuls though. There's generally an optimal option between the invul and the FNP depending on the weapon and the target. Having to pick feels like a trap for people who haven't run the math, just like all those weapon options that make you pick more low quality attacks versus fewer high quality attacks. There is a wrong answer, and your ability to pick it doesn't really add much to the game experience.

Also, you do weird things to some units with such a restriction. Any Nurgle daemon, for instance, is now paying for either DR or an invul that it isn't going to be benefitting from. This also makes casting Fortune or that Slaaneshi marine power on a unit with an invul less inviting. These are sort of edge cases, but I suspect you'd dig up a lot of edge cases once you start getting into the guts of it. Like, any coven unit now has its invul competing against PFP.

Honestly, while it would ramp up their durability, I feel like allowing FNP-like effects after all saves (Ward first, then Armour) would really make things fit their lore better.

I like the idea, makes invuls actually help against massed small arm fire, which can be just as much of a problem for tougher units than things like plasma. If you make me roll enough dice, I will roll some ones and getting a chance to save a few of those helps.