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An Ork buddy of mine was wondering if he could give his Bad Moons Tankbustas, who are inside a Trukk, with the 'shoot twice' stratagem?

Since they are in a transport and technically not on the board, can he still do it?

No. The Transports rules explain why not.

No, you cannot use a stratagem on a unit inside a transport unless the stratagem explicitly allows it. This is because the rules for transports forbid the embarked unit from being affected in any way.

So does that mean embarked models cannot have Warlord Traits or Chapter tactics? These rules should also be affected by the "any way" clause.

 JimOnMars wrote:
So does that mean embarked models cannot have Warlord Traits or Chapter tactics? These rules should also be affected by the "any way" clause.

No, because you apply those before deployment anyway (or are on the datasheet). And in any case, you can have a Warlord Trait or Chapter Tactic just fine in a transport, but you're not affected by it while embarked.

Can we play with this a minute?

Let's take the More Dakka! Stratagem. It simply targets an Ork unit from your army instead of Bad Moons Infantry like Showin' Off.

Firstly, the trukk is a model with an ability called open topped. Open topped allows the models in the truck to attack in in their shooting phase. The ability goes on to describe that any restrictions or modifiers that apply to the trukk applies to the passengers.

Does putting the More Dakka! stratagem on the Trukk modify the trukk's open topped ability to fire the weapons of the models inside?

Mind you, I won't argue Showin' Off applies because that targets Bad Moons infantry, but More Dakka! I'm a bit more curious about.

In short, no. More Dakka! is not a "restriction or modifier".

 BaconCatBug wrote:
In short, no. More Dakka! is not a "restriction or modifier".

Agreed. It's not a restriction if it makes things better, and it's not a modifier.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
In short, no. More Dakka! is not a "restriction or modifier".

So a Stratagem cannot interact with the Trukk?

And the trukk has this ability to fire some weapons? (Let's call it open topped)

 Rismonite wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
In short, no. More Dakka! is not a "restriction or modifier".

So a Stratagem cannot interact with the Trukk?

And the trukk has this ability to fire some weapons? (Let's call it open topped)

It can help the trukk, yes. It can't help the unit inside because the stratagem is not a "restriction or modifier."

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
In short, no. More Dakka! is not a "restriction or modifier".

So a Stratagem cannot interact with the Trukk?

And the trukk has this ability to fire some weapons? (Let's call it open topped)

It can help the trukk, yes. It can't help the unit inside because the stratagem is not a "restriction or modifier."

I'm being difficult and trying to say I am not targeting the unit inside, I am using More Dakka! to modify the Trukk'z Open Topped ability the same way I would expect Stratagem would effect the Boomdakka Snazzwagon's Riding Shotgun ability.

I won't pursue it further I promise.

Units inside an open topped transport are already protected from enemy fire, it would make them to strong if they could be affected by any special rule like stratagem, kultur, chapter tactic, etc......

 p5freak wrote:
Units inside an open topped transport are already protected from enemy fire, it would make them to strong if they could be affected by any special rule like stratagem, kultur, chapter tactic, etc......

No, it would't.

And unless you're on the development, that's a purely speculative statement.

That said, you can run a Chinork Warkopta (loaded up with 10 passengers), and then use "Long Uncontrolled Bursts"; since that IS a modifier, it would transfer to the units inside (giving them a +1 if shooting at a unit with FLY). It's not much, but it's something.

fe40k wrote:
No, it would't.

Yes, it would.

fe40k wrote:

And unless you're on the development, that's a purely speculative statement.

Tell me, why cant units embarked on transports normally do anything, or be affected in any way ? What is the reasoning behind that rule ?

Well if you can't use More Dakka/Showin' Off/etc in the Shooting Phase to select a unit inside an open-topped transport, by the same logic you can't upgrade a unit inside a transport to Skarboyz or 'Ard Boyz if "the passengers cannot be affected by Stratagems". Or are you suggesting a Boyz unit inside a Battlewagon could not be upgraded? I don't see a signifying difference in how the stratagems are worded.

In fact, you could Tellyport the Boyz and I'm sure they could still be upgraded. So this "not on the battlefield" nonsense is not really holding water.

So yeah, I'll carry on using More Dakka on passengers until the FAQ specifically forbids it.

 Weazel wrote:
Well if you can't use More Dakka/Showin' Off/etc in the Shooting Phase to select a unit inside an open-topped transport, by the same logic you can't upgrade a unit inside a transport to Skarboyz or 'Ard Boyz if "the passengers cannot be affected by Stratagems". Or are you suggesting a Boyz unit inside a Battlewagon could not be upgraded? I don't see a signifying difference in how the stratagems are worded.

In fact, you could Tellyport the Boyz and I'm sure they could still be upgraded. So this "not on the battlefield" nonsense is not really holding water.

So yeah, I'll carry on using More Dakka on passengers until the FAQ specifically forbids it.

Because you use Skarboyz "before the battle", when they aren't embarked and aren't in the Tellyporta. You seem to think that all stratagems work the exact same way, when they don't.

Also, that attitude is petty and makes no sense. By that logic I'll keep automatically hitting with all my shots and having my Ultramarines have 48 wounds apiece until the FAQ specifically forbids it. You're flat out wrong here, sorry.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Well if you can't use More Dakka/Showin' Off/etc in the Shooting Phase to select a unit inside an open-topped transport, by the same logic you can't upgrade a unit inside a transport to Skarboyz or 'Ard Boyz if "the passengers cannot be affected by Stratagems". Or are you suggesting a Boyz unit inside a Battlewagon could not be upgraded? I don't see a signifying difference in how the stratagems are worded.

In fact, you could Tellyport the Boyz and I'm sure they could still be upgraded. So this "not on the battlefield" nonsense is not really holding water.

So yeah, I'll carry on using More Dakka on passengers until the FAQ specifically forbids it.

Because you use Skarboyz "before the battle", when they aren't embarked and aren't in the Tellyporta. You seem to think that all stratagems work the exact same way, when they don't.

Also, that attitude is petty and makes no sense. By that logic I'll keep automatically hitting with all my shots and having my Ultramarines have 48 wounds apiece until the FAQ specifically forbids it. You're flat out wrong here, sorry.

It says "before the battle begins". It doesn't specify whether it is before deployment or after. So you can use it just before you roll off who begins the game. When the units are in fact in the Tellyporta or in the transport. The wording is "select a unit in your army". To me this doesn't make any distinction between when the battle hasn't started and when it has.

Not going to bite your puny trolling attempt though.

E: The FAQ should be out soon though, hopefully they have answered this (I among hopefully many others have asked them directly).

 Weazel wrote:
It says "before the battle begins". It doesn't specify whether it is before deployment or after. So you can use it just before you roll off who begins the game. When the units are in fact in the Tellyporta or in the transport. The wording is "select a unit in your army". To me this doesn't make any distinction between when the battle hasn't started and when it has.

Rulebook FAQ disagrees with you mate.

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’. When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.

So yes, you do make them Skarboyz before you deploy. If you're going to try and "gotcha", at least make sure you're correct first.

Using the arguments in this thread, would passengers be able to use the normal dakka dakka rule orks have (additional shots on 6s)?

If dakka dakka applies to the transport, and it is a modifier (which it isnt), it would apply to the embarked models as well. No, doesnt work. Question is, can they use their own dakka dakka rule ?

Dakka Dakka Dakka is not a modifier, p5freak. But as the Orks have the rule anyway it’s a non-issue.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Dakka Dakka Dakka is not a modifier, p5freak. But as the Orks have the rule anyway it’s a non-issue.

Yes, but the transport rule says :

Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any
way whilst they are embarked.

This means they cannot be affected by their own dakka dakka rule. The oppen topped rule allows them to shoot, nothing more.

No, it doesn’t. It means an outside agent can’t affect them. They can use their unit’s own rules just fine.

No. "In any way" is not only an outside agent, its everything that could affect them.

If a passenger shoots their kmb, would they be affected by its mortal wound effect if rolling a 1? Or does the transport rule prevent the model to be affected by its gun?

I would say that a units abilities will still work when they are embarked in an open topped vehicle. The open topped rule creates an exception to the "Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked." rule. The key word here is "Normally".

so the dakkax3 rule would take effect, because it triggers when the unit shoots, and the unit is allowed to shoot because of the open topped rule. The unit isn't being affected, per se, but it's shooting attack is.

As for the application of stratagems, it depends on the wording. If it states to "Select a friendly unit" then it would work, as the embarked unit is a friendly unit. If it states to "Select a friendly unit on the battlefield" then it would not work, as the embarked unit is not on the battlefield.

You could in fact apply a "select a friendly unit" stratagem to a unit which couldn't shoot (due to models in 1", or embarked on a non open topped vehicle) and pay the CP to shoot twice - 2x0 = 0.

does anyone have the actual wording to hand? I've not got my 'dex with me.

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Dakka Dakka Dakka is not a modifier, p5freak. But as the Orks have the rule anyway it’s a non-issue.

Yes, but the transport rule says :

Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any
way whilst they are embarked.

This means they cannot be affected by their own dakka dakka rule. The oppen topped rule allows them to shoot, nothing more.

The sentence right after that says Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked.", which looks to be a clarification of the statement you are quoting. Dakka dakka is a special rule for the ork unit affecting itself, not an ability affecting another unit. They would get to use it.

I have to disagree. The Necron ghost ark is a transport with the following rule :

You can make Reanimation Protocol rolls for any slain models from units embarked on a Ghost Ark, even though those units are not on the battlefield.[\quote]

Without this exception warriors wouldn't be able to use reanimation protocols which is listed on their datasheet.

 p5freak wrote:
I have to disagree. The Necron ghost ark is a transport with the following rule :

You can make Reanimation Protocol rolls for any slain models from units embarked on a Ghost Ark, even though those units are not on the battlefield.[\quote]

Without this exception warriors wouldn't be able to use reanimation protocols which is listed on their datasheet.

Thats not true. They can still make RP, it just won't do anything because you cannot place the reanimated model within the rest of the unit because it is embarked. The Ghost Ark allows you to do so even though you are embarked.

Not certain on the wording of reanimation protocols but would it state that a model can be returned to the battlefield, or something along these lines?

If so then it would be impossible to return a model to the battlefield and simultaneously have it embarked on the transport - by definition then being no longer on the battlefield. That would be why the rule needs clarifying.

Would you argue that tankbustas no longer reroll to hit vehicles when embarked, as this rule cannot affect them?

In that instance, can a unit of tankbustas all throw grenades, as the rule which states that only 1 model can do so cannot affect them, as they are in a vehicle? it can't only apply to positive rules, after all - it must work across the board.

will a unit of lootas no longer be "Affected" by the -1 to hit models with such abilities if embarked?

Saddle up lads! it's time fer fightin'!