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Boiled down to a fine paste, the question is "Can you use the Command Re-roll stratagem before using 'Ere We Go!'s re-roll ability?"

For reference:

BRB Page 242 wrote:COMMAND RE-ROLL
Stratagem
You can re-roll any single dice.

Codex: Adeptus Orkus Page 82 wrote:’ERE WE GO!
Once a mob of Orks builds up a good head of steam, their sheer momentum carries them into the fight like a green avalanche.
You can re-roll charge rolls for this unit. When doing so, you can re-roll all or any of the dice.

Now, the question of whether you can use 'Ere We Go! before using the Command Re-roll is cut and dry, you cannot, regardless of any semantic arguments to the contrary, due to the BRB FAQ outright stating you cannot.

Q: Can I use the Command Re-roll Stratagem to retroactively re-roll a dice? For example, if I take a Psychic test, and then my opponent successfully Denies the Witch, could I use the Stratagem to try and increase the result of the original Psychic test?
A: No. You must use the Stratagem as soon as you have rolled your dice, before anything else occurs.

Yellow for emphasis. Since the question uses "For example" the answer is not limited to only Psychic tests and Deny the Witch tests, and is emphatic that you must use the stratagem before ANYTHING ELSE has occurred, which includes using the re-roll from 'Ere We Go!

However, I posit the question to the community about whether it is possible to use the Command Re-roll stratagem first on a single dice, and then use 'Ere We Go! on the remaining dice (since you can't re-roll a re-roll) after resolving the Command Re-roll stratagem? I know it's not really that optimal however it could be useful if, for example, you rolled a 2 and a 4 when needing a 9, re-roll the 2 with the Command Re-roll, getting a 4, then using 'Ere We Go! on the 4, instead of re-rolling both at once and risking a lower number than 4 on the second dice.

My initial thought is that yes, you could do it. My reasoning is that, due to the sequencing rule you activate the Command Re-roll and 'Ere We Go! simultaneously (i.e. when you make the charge roll) and since you are usually Charging on your own turn with Orks, you decide the order you resolve the two rules. However, the FAQ rudely interrupts with an "akshually BaconCatBug you smelly old man you have to use the Command Re-roll 'before anything else occurs' ohkhay?" so you are forced to use the Command Re-roll first.

Have I missed anything important? I want to make sure I have things correct so I don't accidentally give myself an unfair advantage by intentionally disregarding the rules as written in order to gain and unfair advantage over my opponent.

EDIT: Nevermind, I misread the question.

I agree with BCB. You can use Command Re-Roll on Dice A, and 'Ere We Go on Dice B.

 Octopoid wrote:
My thought is that you can do one or the other, but not both. Since you can never re-roll a di(c)e more than once, you'd have to choose between the Command Re-Roll Stratagem, which lets you re-roll one of the dice (if I'm remembering correctly) or 'Ere We Go, which lets you re-roll both of them. I think they both have their uses, depending on what the original roll is.

1.) Roll Charge
2.) Decide whether to use Command Re-Roll
3.) If Command Re-Roll was not used, decide whether to use 'Ere We Go

'Ere We Go! lets you re-roll some or all of the dice, you're not forced to re-roll all of the dice with 'Ere We Go! anymore. You can use 'Ere We Go! to re-roll one of the dice that hasn't been re-rolled.

Edit: YOUR TWO SLOW </Sanic>

You roll a 4 and 2 for charge distance. This result would fail, so you pickup the 2 and use Ere we Go to reroll it and get a 3.

This means to me that your original charge distance of a six was rerolled, the rerolled result is 7. At this point, I would feel like I was rerolling a reroll if I tried to use a CP on the '4' to make a better charge distance.

 Rismonite wrote:
You roll a 4 and 2 for charge distance. This result would fail, so you pickup the 2 and use Ere we Go to reroll it and get a 3.

This means to me that your original charge distance of a six was rerolled, the rerolled result is 7. At this point, I would feel like I was rerolling a reroll if I tried to use a CP on the '4' to make a better charge distance.

I explained why you can't do this in the OP. You have to use the Command Re-roll first. You're not re-rolling a re-roll because 'Ere We Go! explicitly allows you to re-roll only some of the dice.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
You roll a 4 and 2 for charge distance. This result would fail, so you pickup the 2 and use Ere we Go to reroll it and get a 3.

This means to me that your original charge distance of a six was rerolled, the rerolled result is 7. At this point, I would feel like I was rerolling a reroll if I tried to use a CP on the '4' to make a better charge distance.

I explained why you can't do this in the OP. You have to use the Command Re-roll first. You're not re-rolling a re-roll because 'Ere We Go! explicitly allows you to re-roll only some of the dice.

Sorry.

I am still thinking that your would be rerolling a reroll for the same reason, even in that order. You get a 6, that is your first result. You use 1CP to reroll the 2, you get a three. Your rerolled result is now 7, I would feel like I was rerolling a reroll if I tried to pickup the 4 and reroll it with Ere we go.

 Rismonite wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
You roll a 4 and 2 for charge distance. This result would fail, so you pickup the 2 and use Ere we Go to reroll it and get a 3.

This means to me that your original charge distance of a six was rerolled, the rerolled result is 7. At this point, I would feel like I was rerolling a reroll if I tried to use a CP on the '4' to make a better charge distance.

I explained why you can't do this in the OP. You have to use the Command Re-roll first. You're not re-rolling a re-roll because 'Ere We Go! explicitly allows you to re-roll only some of the dice.

Sorry.

I am still thinking that your would be rerolling a reroll for the same reason, even in that order. You get a 6, that is your first result. You use 1CP to reroll the 2, you get a three. Your rerolled result is now 7, I would feel like I was rerolling a reroll if I tried to pickup the 4 and reroll it with Ere we go.

Except the prohibition is not on re-rolling results but re-rolling dice. You roll two dice, A and B. Dice A comes up a 2, Dice B comes up a 4. You use Command Re-Roll to re-roll dice A and get a 3, and then choose to use 'Ere We Go to re-roll Dice B, and get a 5. You turned a RESULT of 6 into an 8 using no more than one re-roll per DICE.

I have already emailed GW about this interaction, if its possible, or not. My gut feeling is the answer is you cant use ere we go and the command re-roll together. It would make charges almost auto succeed, which is to powerful. Hopefully they will answer it in the ork FAQ.

I don't get what the rule discussion is, it seems pretty clear-cut as you described.

Since 'Ere We Go is [ANY] or [ALL], and you can't re-roll a dice more than once;

Yes, as long as you make the choice to use, or not use the CP re-roll on one die before 'Ere We Go; you can then re-roll the second die, and only the second (as the first has already been re-rolled, and is no longer eligible).

CP one die, 'Ere We Go the other die - in that order, only.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Q: Can I use the Command Re-roll Stratagem to retroactively re-roll a dice? For example, if I take a Psychic test, and then my opponent successfully Denies the Witch, could I use the Stratagem to try and increase the result of the original Psychic test?
A: No. You must use the Stratagem as soon as you have rolled your dice, before anything else occurs.

Yellow for emphasis. Since the question uses "For example" the answer is not limited to only Psychic tests and Deny the Witch tests, and is emphatic that you must use the stratagem before ANYTHING ELSE has occurred, which includes using the re-roll from 'Ere We Go!

I believe this is an incorrect reading of the FAQ answer. The answer refers to rerolling a roll after a subsequent event has taken pace, in this case your opponent making their Deny the Witch roll after you have resolved your Psychic Test. It has nothing to do with what order you can use different abilities to reroll dice before moving on with your action resolution sequence.

The psychic test is just an example. If you use ere we go before the command re-roll, anything else has already occured.

Correct. However, note that if you use the "declare simultaneously, resolve in your choice of order" option (whether for this particular thing or in general) you are committed at that point regardless of the outcome. You will have to pay any costs (CP, spending once-per-turn events, etc) for the second re-roll ability even if you choose to re-roll zero dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
I believe this is an incorrect reading of the FAQ answer. The answer refers to rerolling a roll after a subsequent event has taken pace, in this case your opponent making their Deny the Witch roll after you have resolved your Psychic Test. It has nothing to do with what order you can use different abilities to reroll dice before moving on with your action resolution sequence.

That's not what the words say. Whatever the context of the original question might be the answer explicitly states that the re-roll stratagem must be resolved before anything else. The specific timing rule overrules the general "do them in whatever order you choose" rule.

I prefer to interpet it with the question as a general instruction to resolve your re-rolls before moving on to other steps in the game rather than a “Special Snowflake” FAQ forcing Command Reroll to be used before any other rule.

Charge distance is "Roll 2d6". If you reroll a single die, have you rerolled the charge distance?


"‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.

Once you reroll that first dice roll, the 2d6 has been rerolled and cannot be rolled again.

And as I explained, it's two different rules letting you re-roll. The rule says "You can never re-roll A (singular) dice more than once". If I re-roll one dice with the Command Re-roll, I have re-rolled one of the dice and the other dice has not been re-rolled. The sentence you highlighted doesn't magically make the non-re-rolled dice re-rolled if you don't re-roll them, it's just saying that re-rolls are not always all or nothing affairs.

Fragile wrote:
Charge distance is "Roll 2d6". If you reroll a single die, have you rerolled the charge distance?


"‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.

Once you reroll that first dice roll, the 2d6 has been rerolled and cannot be rolled again.

Disagree. Once you re-roll that first dice, that first dice has been re-rolled. 1d6 has been re-rolled. The other d6 is still eligible to be re-rolled, because the prohibition against re-rolling is against re-rolling DICE, not ROLLS or RESULTS.

 alextroy wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Q: Can I use the Command Re-roll Stratagem to retroactively re-roll a dice? For example, if I take a Psychic test, and then my opponent successfully Denies the Witch, could I use the Stratagem to try and increase the result of the original Psychic test?
A: No. You must use the Stratagem as soon as you have rolled your dice, before anything else occurs.

Yellow for emphasis. Since the question uses "For example" the answer is not limited to only Psychic tests and Deny the Witch tests, and is emphatic that you must use the stratagem before ANYTHING ELSE has occurred, which includes using the re-roll from 'Ere We Go!

I believe this is an incorrect reading of the FAQ answer. The answer refers to rerolling a roll after a subsequent event has taken pace, in this case your opponent making their Deny the Witch roll after you have resolved your Psychic Test. It has nothing to do with what order you can use different abilities to reroll dice before moving on with your action resolution sequence.

I agree, and read it this way as well. The point was that you can't go back once a separate game action has occurred.

I would not consider 'Ere We Go a game action, it's just another Stratagem being used. You can use multiple Stratagems at the same time, I can't see why this would be different.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Q: Can I use the Command Re-roll Stratagem to retroactively re-roll a dice? For example, if I take a Psychic test, and then my opponent successfully Denies the Witch, could I use the Stratagem to try and increase the result of the original Psychic test?
A: No. You must use the Stratagem as soon as you have rolled your dice, before anything else occurs.

Yellow for emphasis. Since the question uses "For example" the answer is not limited to only Psychic tests and Deny the Witch tests, and is emphatic that you must use the stratagem before ANYTHING ELSE has occurred, which includes using the re-roll from 'Ere We Go!

I believe this is an incorrect reading of the FAQ answer. The answer refers to rerolling a roll after a subsequent event has taken pace, in this case your opponent making their Deny the Witch roll after you have resolved your Psychic Test. It has nothing to do with what order you can use different abilities to reroll dice before moving on with your action resolution sequence.

I agree, and read it this way as well. The point was that you can't go back once a separate game action has occurred.

I would not consider 'Ere We Go a game action, it's just another Stratagem being used. You can use multiple Stratagems at the same time, I can't see why this would be different.

It's an action, whether you want to classify it as a game action or not. Not that the quotation was "before anything else occurs". If you play a stratagem, that is something else occuring.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And as I explained, it's two different rules letting you re-roll. The rule says "You can never re-roll A (singular) dice more than once". If I re-roll one dice with the Command Re-roll, I have re-rolled one of the dice and the other dice has not been re-rolled. The sentence you highlighted doesn't magically make the non-re-rolled dice re-rolled if you don't re-roll them, it's just saying that re-rolls are not always all or nothing affairs.

A reroll is rerolling one or more dice.

Once you have used a stratagem to reroll that die, you have rerolled the result by definition.

If you choose to use another stratagem after that, you have rerolled twice. You cannot use both Strats at the same time by sequencing, one must come first. So it does not matter that you have a "die" that was not rerolled because the 2d6 roll was rerolled the moment you picked up "one or more" dice to roll again.

Fragile wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And as I explained, it's two different rules letting you re-roll. The rule says "You can never re-roll A (singular) dice more than once". If I re-roll one dice with the Command Re-roll, I have re-rolled one of the dice and the other dice has not been re-rolled. The sentence you highlighted doesn't magically make the non-re-rolled dice re-rolled if you don't re-roll them, it's just saying that re-rolls are not always all or nothing affairs.

A reroll is rerolling one or more dice.

Once you have used a stratagem to reroll that die, you have rerolled the result by definition.

If you choose to use another stratagem after that, you have rerolled twice. You cannot use both Strats at the same time by sequencing, one must come first. So it does not matter that you have a "die" that was not rerolled because the 2d6 roll was rerolled the moment you picked up "one or more" dice to roll again.

As has been said, the restriction is per die, not per result. You can re-roll each die separately using this combination of stratagems. See above for reasoning. Repeating that the result is somehow relevant will not change the above reasoning. Please supply new arguments.

The result is not per die in a 2d6 or 3d6 situation. The rule I cited clearly states that.

A reroll is rerolling some or all of the dice. Once you reroll any die in the 2d6 situation, you have rerolled by rule. Since stratagems cannot be played at the same time, you cannot stack two to achieve what you are attempting.

Fragile wrote:
Since stratagems cannot be played at the same time...

Where did you get this idea?

Fragile wrote:
"‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.

Emphasis mine. The rule you quoted shows that you cannot re-roll A DICE more than once. It says nothing about re-rolling results, except that IF a rule allows you to re-roll a RESULT, then you must roll all of those dice again. There is no prohibition against re-rolling one die with one Stratagem and another die with a second Stratagem. I recommend you re-read the post you quoted.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Since stratagems cannot be played at the same time...

Where did you get this idea?

Sequencing, pg 178

Fragile wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Since stratagems cannot be played at the same time...

Where did you get this idea?

Sequencing, pg 178

That rule quite literally says the opposite. It allows for stratagems to be played at the same time, but they are resolved sequentially. Which I pointed out in the OP, and the Special Snowflake FAQ that accompanies it.

 Octopoid wrote:

Fragile wrote:
"‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.

Emphasis mine. The rule you quoted shows that you cannot re-roll A DICE more than once. It says nothing about re-rolling results, except that IF a rule allows you to re-roll a RESULT, then you must roll all of those dice again. There is no prohibition against re-rolling one die with one Stratagem and another die with a second Stratagem. I recommend you re-read the post you quoted.

This seems to be the truth of it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Since stratagems cannot be played at the same time...

Where did you get this idea?

Sequencing, pg 178

That rule quite literally says the opposite. It allows for stratagems to be played at the same time, but they are resolved sequentially. Which I pointed out in the OP, and the Special Snowflake FAQ that accompanies it.

I just started having to learn and use JavaScript for work.
Asynquence is a huge PITA! and stuff like this just reiterates how unnecessarily complicated it makes things