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When the GSC introduced the <Brood Brothers> doctrine, that gives them ability to ally with the Genestealers, I was thinking, wouldn't be it cool if the Guardsmen also got the <Traitor Guard>, giving them an ability to ally with Chaos (I know there is a FW book that adresses this issue, but from I heard, it really sucks) and finally the <Gue'vesa>, giving them ability to form a battle-forged army with the T'au. All with fluffy tweaks to make the men blend in.

What is your opinion on this? Would you like to see this happen, or rather not?

For this tournament your list will consist of 110 points of Imperial Guard, and the remainder chosen from your own codex...

Traitor Guard are the Renegades & Heretics from the Forgeworld index.

Some of their units suck (Militia...) but a bunch of their units are in fact lifted directly from the Guard Datasheets.

I do indeed really want Guevesa.

GSC we’re popular enough to warrant successive releases of models. Traitor Guard would fall into the same category without a doubt, and GW did tease it somewhat with the Blackstone models.

Maybe one day...

Need Blood Pact

Patriarch Phyrx wrote:
GSC we’re popular enough to warrant successive releases of models. Traitor Guard would fall into the same category without a doubt, and GW did tease it somewhat with the Blackstone models.

Maybe one day...

Need Blood Pact

I would love to GW support rules to make Blood Pact guardsmen. I don't see any reason why you couldn't do the "Blood Brothers" thing with AM for Chaos; would be very fluffy.

Having a Traitor Guard rule similar to Brood Brothers would work fine IMO, but the Tau? I'd limit that to basic infantry units, and have them use Tau vehicles. Possibly keep Chimeras, but no battle tanks (as a disincentive to rebellion on the part of the Tau overlords). Options to give human officers Tau weapons would be good, too. Perhaps a "Gue'vesa sepoy commander" datasheet to replace the Platoon and Company Commander datasheets.

 Stux wrote:
Traitor Guard are the Renegades & Heretics from the Forgeworld index.

Some of their units suck (Militia...) but a bunch of their units are in fact lifted directly from the Guard Datasheets.

Kinda.

We use AM datasheets for vehicles, that's the entire overlap.

If they don't plan to actually fix soup by limiting Imperium's way to do this, then yes I would think Traitor Guard and Gue'vesa would be acceptable (might as well give everyone the Loyal/Treacherous/Mutant/Brainwashed 32 then)

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Having a Traitor Guard rule similar to Brood Brothers would work fine IMO, but the Tau? I'd limit that to basic infantry units, and have them use Tau vehicles. Possibly keep Chimeras, but no battle tanks (as a disincentive to rebellion on the part of the Tau overlords). Options to give human officers Tau weapons would be good, too. Perhaps a "Gue'vesa sepoy commander" datasheet to replace the Platoon and Company Commander datasheets.

Nah. If you're going to continue to screw over Guard entirely by letting everyone and their stupid faction be able to take the Guard's stuff, then just do it wholehog. None of this "Chaos and GSC get everything but Tau Guard don't!" nonsense.

The fluff was always that the "Human Helpers" were basically just PDF or civilians who "turned" to the Greater Good, given a bit of training and then given whatever kit the Tau captured on the planet. It was extremely rare for actual Guardsmen to be in there, since y'know the whole "Commissars probably would have killed those guys first" thing and the Tau not being idiots. You're also talking about generations going by before the Tau actually would allow for the formation of those units to begin with.

Realistically, the Brood Brothers crap is a mistake. A huge one. It might be thematic or whatever, but it's everything that everyone always cried about "needing multiple books" yet for whatever reason since it bolsters a fairly strong faction(that already has a GEQ unit in there to begin with, that actually represents a damned Guard Squad better than the Guard Squads themselves do!) with things they would normally lack it seems to be okay.

It's also entirely fethed over the Guard proper because now it means the book can't be reworked without Brood Brothers having to be taken into consideration and whatever ass did that should be dreadsocked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Traitor Guard are the Renegades & Heretics from the Forgeworld index.

Some of their units suck (Militia...) but a bunch of their units are in fact lifted directly from the Guard Datasheets.

Kinda.

We use AM datasheets for vehicles, that's the entire overlap.

Nope. You also use renamed Guard datasheets for several of your infantry units, with the slight rework being that you get to take more models in the unit with a "variable Leadership" thanks to Uncertain Worth.

I cannot stand Renegade and Heretics players trying to downplay their list. It's Guard with several options that Guard don't get(variable squad sizes, kit options on your Veteran equivalent) but used to have.

So, even by your own... let's call it 'logic', R&H don't use the same datasheets as AM, except for vehicles.

Cool. So exactly what I said, with a bunch of (fabricated) nonsense tacked on to respond to something nobody said.

Prediction:

New Genestealer Cults Codex adds a bunch of new units to the list.

A select few "Guard" models are included in the Codex.

GW updates the Astra Militarum and Index: Xenos 2 FAQs to remove the Brood Brother rule.

And then only Imperial armies can take Guard.

As a guard player, it would be cool to see more guard on the tabletop. Absolutely think <Gue'Vesa> and <Traitor Guard> tags should be a thing in the Tau and CSM books respectively. Not EVERY guard unit should be able to be tagged in this way (units like commissars and baneblades etc... should remain <Astra Militarum> only) but a good amount.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Having a Traitor Guard rule similar to Brood Brothers would work fine IMO, but the Tau? I'd limit that to basic infantry units, and have them use Tau vehicles. Possibly keep Chimeras, but no battle tanks (as a disincentive to rebellion on the part of the Tau overlords). Options to give human officers Tau weapons would be good, too. Perhaps a "Gue'vesa sepoy commander" datasheet to replace the Platoon and Company Commander datasheets.

Nah. If you're going to continue to screw over Guard entirely by letting everyone and their stupid faction be able to take the Guard's stuff, then just do it wholehog. None of this "Chaos and GSC get everything but Tau Guard don't!" nonsense.

The fluff was always that the "Human Helpers" were basically just PDF or civilians who "turned" to the Greater Good, given a bit of training and then given whatever kit the Tau captured on the planet. It was extremely rare for actual Guardsmen to be in there, since y'know the whole "Commissars probably would have killed those guys first" thing and the Tau not being idiots. You're also talking about generations going by before the Tau actually would allow for the formation of those units to begin with.

Realistically, the Brood Brothers crap is a mistake. A huge one. It might be thematic or whatever, but it's everything that everyone always cried about "needing multiple books" yet for whatever reason since it bolsters a fairly strong faction(that already has a GEQ unit in there to begin with, that actually represents a damned Guard Squad better than the Guard Squads themselves do!) with things they would normally lack it seems to be okay.

It's also entirely fethed over the Guard proper because now it means the book can't be reworked without Brood Brothers having to be taken into consideration and whatever ass did that should be dreadsocked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Traitor Guard are the Renegades & Heretics from the Forgeworld index.

Some of their units suck (Militia...) but a bunch of their units are in fact lifted directly from the Guard Datasheets.

Kinda.

We use AM datasheets for vehicles, that's the entire overlap.

Nope. You also use renamed Guard datasheets for several of your infantry units, with the slight rework being that you get to take more models in the unit with a "variable Leadership" thanks to Uncertain Worth.

I cannot stand Renegade and Heretics players trying to downplay their list. It's Guard with several options that Guard don't get(variable squad sizes, kit options on your Veteran equivalent) but used to have.

actually there is a significant number of actual Guard in the ranks of the Guevesa as its mentioned that when the imperium pulled out of Domcles they abondoned a feth ton of Guardsmen leaving them to die. too bad for them they didnt relize that the Tau were one of the only factions that not only was more than willing to capture the guard alive but also treated them even better than the imperium did so its mentioned that more than a few of them took up arms for the greater good as all human should.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Having a Traitor Guard rule similar to Brood Brothers would work fine IMO, but the Tau? I'd limit that to basic infantry units, and have them use Tau vehicles. Possibly keep Chimeras, but no battle tanks (as a disincentive to rebellion on the part of the Tau overlords). Options to give human officers Tau weapons would be good, too. Perhaps a "Gue'vesa sepoy commander" datasheet to replace the Platoon and Company Commander datasheets.

Nah. If you're going to continue to screw over Guard entirely by letting everyone and their stupid faction be able to take the Guard's stuff, then just do it wholehog. None of this "Chaos and GSC get everything but Tau Guard don't!" nonsense.

The fluff was always that the "Human Helpers" were basically just PDF or civilians who "turned" to the Greater Good, given a bit of training and then given whatever kit the Tau captured on the planet. It was extremely rare for actual Guardsmen to be in there, since y'know the whole "Commissars probably would have killed those guys first" thing and the Tau not being idiots. You're also talking about generations going by before the Tau actually would allow for the formation of those units to begin with.

Realistically, the Brood Brothers crap is a mistake. A huge one. It might be thematic or whatever, but it's everything that everyone always cried about "needing multiple books" yet for whatever reason since it bolsters a fairly strong faction(that already has a GEQ unit in there to begin with, that actually represents a damned Guard Squad better than the Guard Squads themselves do!) with things they would normally lack it seems to be okay.

It's also entirely fethed over the Guard proper because now it means the book can't be reworked without Brood Brothers having to be taken into consideration and whatever ass did that should be dreadsocked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Traitor Guard are the Renegades & Heretics from the Forgeworld index.

Some of their units suck (Militia...) but a bunch of their units are in fact lifted directly from the Guard Datasheets.

Kinda.

We use AM datasheets for vehicles, that's the entire overlap.

Nope. You also use renamed Guard datasheets for several of your infantry units, with the slight rework being that you get to take more models in the unit with a "variable Leadership" thanks to Uncertain Worth.

I cannot stand Renegade and Heretics players trying to downplay their list. It's Guard with several options that Guard don't get(variable squad sizes, kit options on your Veteran equivalent) but used to have.

It's almost like we pay the same for worse BS, Worse Armour, Worse Morale, and infact we pay MORE for plasma guns RAW! Not to mention the lack of strats, relics, world traits, and Covenants are utter gak except for 1, which is situational! Oh, we also have less unit options than Guard. Oh boy, but we can take even MORE guys, to fail from morale checks. Not to mention other errors, like units not having the keywords they need. Yes, Guard should have more options within their IS squad, but that doesn't mean R&H isn't utter gak. Our vets cost more than yours too btw.

FW's 8E lists in general are not very well written. DKoK suffer similarly (though have done so in pretty much every edition, FW never seems to want them to actually be playable). It feels like since Alan passed, they basically just gave up on updating content and keeping their old stuff like the Vraks & Badab wars relevant.

FWIW, I think for most people it's pretty much a given that Index armies aren't good. That isn't the point.

The point is an extremely fantastical comparison between Militia and Infantry Squads that uses flawed logic, incomplete statements and non sequiturs to disregard both the actual evidence and the received wisdom.

The other issue is, aside from being index-only, R&H Militia compare favorably to conscripts, who are also 4 ppm.

so the problem is that "You're worse than this 4ppm model, but better than this 4ppm model" and now we realize why either Infantry should be 5 or Conscripts should be 3, with R&H militia following whatever example Conscripts give.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The other issue is, aside from being index-only, R&H Militia compare favorably to conscripts, who are also 4 ppm.

Militia have marginally better average Ld, but worse save, the four covenants are universally inferior to doctrines, and they get no orders at all rather than orders on 4+. About the only tangible advantage is the ability to take lots of special and heavy weapons, for which they pay the same price as BS4+ troops despite their BS5+. They also have a worse Commissar equivalent, and don't have access to useful stratagems.

I'd agree that both Conscripts and Militia should be cheaper than Infantry, and preferably with cheaper heavy weapons as well, but I don't think I'd say Militia compare favorably to Conscripts in their current incarnation.

Frankly, I've never seen anyone defend the R&H list like some are in this thread. I thought it was pretty universally regarded as a broken list only used to soup artillery into Chaos armies.

To be fair, doctrines are the result of codex vs index. Orders are comparable to covenant abilities (though Orders are 1100% better). Their commissar equivalent is actually better, it's d3 then autopass, right?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
To be fair, doctrines are the result of codex vs index. Orders are comparable to covenant abilities (though Orders are 1100% better). Their commissar equivalent is actually better, it's d3 then autopass, right?

Fair point on doctrines being codex vs index, but I feel that points to R&H needing an overhaul. Covenant abilities are decided before the game and apply all the time, which is why I compare them to doctrines- R&H can devote to Khorne and get +1S on the charge, while Catachans get +1S all the time, get bonus Ld near officers, and can reroll dice on artillery. Tough choice as to which is better, eh? And I'll need to double check, but I was pretty sure the Enforcers are lose D3 to re-roll, so like Commissars but with more casualties.

Edit: Ah, you're right, it does make them autopass. The catch I was misremembering is that the rules say that if you have to take a morale test, you instead lose D3 guys and auto-pass. So if you take one casualty, and that forces a morale test that you'll pass on anything but a 6, instead you're forced to use the Enforcer and watch him execute a couple of troops.